Volume 45

1 IN THE CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT NO. 3
2 DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
3
4
5
6 THE STATE OF TEXAS } NO. F-96-39973-J
7 VS: } & A-96-253
8 DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER } Kerr Co. Number
9
10
11
12
13 REPORTERS RECORD
14 JURY TRIAL
15 VOL. 45 OF 53 VOLS.
16 January 30, 1997
17 Thursday
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5042

1 C A P T I O N
2
3
4 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Thursday, the 30th day of
5 January, 1997, in the Criminal District Court Number 3 of
6 Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on for
7 a jury trial before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the
8 Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas,
9 with a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open
10 court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse,
11 Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as
12 follows:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5043

1
2 A P P E A R A N C E S
3
4
5 HON. JOHN VANCE
6 Criminal District Attorney
7 Dallas County, Texas
8
9 BY: HON. GREG DAVIS
10 Assistant District Attorney
11 Dallas County, Texas
12
13 AND:
14 HON. TOBY SHOOK
15 Assistant District Attorney
16 Dallas County, Texas
17
18 AND:
19 HON. SHERRI WALLACE
20 Assistant District Attorney
21 Dallas County, Texas
22
23 APPEARING FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5044

1 ADDITIONAL APPEARANCES:
2
3 HON. DOUGLAS D. MULDER
4 Attorney at Law
5 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
6 717 N. Harwood
7 Dallas, TX 75201
8
9 AND: HON. CURTIS GLOVER
10 Attorney at Law
11 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
12 717 N. Harwood
13 Dallas, TX 75201
14
15 AND: HON. RICHARD C. MOSTY
16 Attorney at Law
17 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
18 820 Main Street, Suite 200
19 Kerrville, TX 78028
20
21 AND: HON. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.
22 Attorney at Law
23 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
24 820 Main Street, Suite 200
25 Kerrville, TX 78028
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5045

1
2 AND: HON. JOHN HAGLER
3 Attorney at Law
4 901 Main Street, Suite 3601
5 Dallas, TX 75202
6 ALL ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE
7 DEFENDANT: DARLIE ROUTIER
8 MR. HAGLER HANDLING THE APPEAL
9 AND:
10 HON. ALBERT D. PATILLO, III
11 Attorney at Law
12 820 Main Street, Suite 211
13 Kerrville, TX 78028
14 APPEARING FOR: Witness-
15 Detective Jimmy Patterson
16 only on one date in trial
17 AND:
18 HON. STEVEN J. PICKELL
19 Attorney at Law
20 620 Earl Garrett Street
21 Kerrville, TX 78028
22 APPEARING FOR: Witness
23 Officer Chris Frosch
24 only on one date in trial
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5046

1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 January 30th, 1997
4 Thursday
5 9:00 a.m.
6
7 (Whereupon, the following
8 proceedings were held in
9 open court, in the presence
10 and hearing of the
11 defendant, being
12 represented by her attorneys
13 and the representatives of
14 the State of Texas, but
15 outside the presence of the
16 jury, as follows:)
17
18
19 THE COURT: All right. Today is
20 Thursday, January 30th, 1997.
21 All right. Let the record reflect
22 that these proceedings are being held outside of the
23 presence of the jury and all parties in the trial are
24 present.
25 Mr. Hagler.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5047

1 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Your Honor, at this
2 time, you know, we would object to any testimony through
3 this witness, Mr. Parker, who, it's our understanding,
4 interrogated the defendant after which time she -- an
5 arrest warrant had been issued for her.
6 And, it is our understanding, it was a
7 lengthy interrogation. And we anticipate that Mr. Parker
8 is going to be testifying to the oral statements made by
9 the defendant.
10 Your Honor, we're fully aware of the
11 provisions of 38.22, Section 5 of the Texas Code of
12 Criminal Procedure, which allows the admission into
13 evidence of certain statements, more specifically,
14 voluntary statements that has a bearing upon the
15 credibility of the accused as a witness. And we don't
16 quarrel with that, naturally.
17 But our position, your Honor, is that
18 if they intend to elicit testimony through this witness,
19 it should be limited -- must be limited as to only those
20 statements of the defendant that has a bearing on her
21 credibility, in other words, impeachment-type testimony,
22 as opposed to allowing them to go through an entire --
23 eliciting from this witness, any and all statements,
24 interrogations and what have you, made by the defendant
25 while she was interrogated by this individual, while she
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5048

1 was in custody.
2 And, we would further urge, that even
3 though Mr. Parker is not presently a law enforcement
4 officer, he was there, acting as an agent of the state,
5 and therefore, the provision 38.22 is applicable.
6 THE COURT: Anything, Mr. Davis?
7 MR. GREG DAVIS: No, sir. I don't
8 have any response to that.
9 THE COURT: All right. Well, the
10 Court yesterday found that the witness -- that Mrs.
11 Routier had been properly Mirandized, and the statement
12 was voluntarily given. So the Court would admit Mr.
13 Parker's testimony and enter appropriate findings of
14 facts and conclusions of law in these -- in this area,
15 and place it in the record of the trial. And I assume
16 you will object to this.
17 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Well, as to the --
18 we have not really had any hearings on the voluntariness.
19 Of course, we don't -- apparently, there is no dispute
20 about the fact she was given Miranda warnings.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. JOHN HAGLER: And, I don't think
23 there is any question of the fact that this is going to
24 be a custodial interrogation; is that correct?
25 MR. GREG DAVIS: That's correct. She
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5049

1 was advised that an arrest warrant had been secured for
2 her.
3 THE COURT: She was properly
4 Mirandized.
5 MR. GREG DAVIS: She was.
6 THE COURT: She was properly
7 Mirandized.
8 MR. GREG DAVIS: Judge, I think we can
9 cut to this. I'm going to limit my direct examination of
10 Mr. Parker to the areas that we discussed yesterday
11 during the defendant's testimony. I don't intend to go
12 through all three hours that he spent with her.
13 THE COURT: Well, fine. With that
14 understanding, then I am going to admit it, and I'll make
15 the appropriate findings of facts and conclusions of law.
16 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, why don't
17 we find out what it is.
18 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir, I can
19 summarize it.
20 THE COURT: Can you summarize it
21 quickly?
22 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. I believe
23 Mr. Parker is going to testify that he met with her on
24 June the 18th. He did Mirandize her. That she agreed to
25 talk with him. That during the course of that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
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1 conversation that he had with her, he did, in fact, have
2 her voluntary statement with him. That he showed that to
3 the defendant. That he gave her the opportunity to read
4 the voluntary statement. That she did, in fact, appear
5 to read the voluntary statement. And, that he asked her
6 whether or not the contents of that voluntary statement
7 were true, and she stated that they were.
8 We also intend to ask her (sic) about,
9 ask Mr. Parker about whether or not he confronted the
10 defendant about whether or not she had killed her
11 children, on more than one occasion during the
12 conversation. He will testify that he did.
13 He will testify that she never denied
14 killing her children, and that when confronted that she
15 said, "If I did it, I don't remember." And I believe
16 those were the areas that the defendant testified about
17 yesterday.
18 THE COURT: All right. Fine. If you
19 will raise your right hand, please, sir.
20
21 (Whereupon, the witness
22 Was duly sworn by the
23 Court, to speak the truth,
24 The whole truth and
25 Nothing but the truth,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5051

1 After which, the
2 Proceedings were
3 Resumed as follows:)
4
5 THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or
6 affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be
7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
8 help you God?
9 THE WITNESS: I do.
10 THE COURT: All right. Have a seat
11 right there.
12 You are under the Rule of Evidence.
13 You understand what that means?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
15 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Just so the record
16 is clear, your Honor, again, we, again, would reurge our
17 objection to any and all testimony for the previous
18 reasons stated.
19 THE COURT: Thank you. Overruled.
20 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Could we have a
21 running objection to his testimony?
22 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. You may.
23 All right, bring the jury in.
24
25 (Whereupon, the jury
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5052

1 Was returned to the
2 Courtroom, and the
3 Proceedings were
4 Resumed on the record,
5 In open court, in the
6 Presence and hearing
7 Of the defendant,
8 As follows:)
9
10 THE COURT: Let the record reflect
11 that all parties in the trial are present, and the jury 12 is seated.
13 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this
14 witness has already been sworn outside of your presence. 15 Mr. Davis.
16 MR. GREG DAVIS: Thank you, judge.
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5053

1 Whereupon,
2
3
4 WILLIAM M. PARKER,
5
6 was called as a witness, for the State of Texas, in
7 Rebuttal, having been first duly sworn by the Court, to
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
9 truth, was examined and testified in open court, as
10 follows:
11
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13
14 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
15 Q. Sir, would you please tell us your
16 full name?
17 A. My name is Bill Parker, William M.
18 Parker.
19 Q. All right. Mr. Parker, are you
20 presently employed as a private investigator in Dallas?
21 A. Yes, sir, I am.
22 Q. Do you own your own business at this
23 time?
24 A. Yes, sir, I do.
25 Q. How long have you been employed as a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5054

1 private investigator in Dallas, sir?
2 A. Since 1985.
3 Q. Now, prior to 1985, would you tell the
4 members of the jury how you were employed.
5 A. I was a police officer for the City of
6 Dallas.
7 Q. All right. How long --
8
9 THE COURT: You may have to speak a
10 little bit louder because those two -- the jurors at the
11 end have to hear you.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay.
13
14 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
15 Q. How long were you a member of the
16 Dallas Police Department, sir?
17 A. Twenty years.
18 Q. All right. And, when you retired from
19 the Dallas Police Department in 1985, what section or
20 division were you assigned to?
21 A. I was assigned to the homicide unit.
22 Q. What were your responsibilities in
23 that section?
24 A. I was a first-line supervisor.
25 Q. All right. And, how long had you been
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5055

1 assigned to the homicide division?
2 A. Eleven plus years.
3 Q. Okay. In the course of the eleven
4 plus years that you spent in the homicide division, I
5 take it that you had occasion to investigate homicides;
6 is that right?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Can you give the members of the jury
9 an estimate of the number of homicides that you
10 investigated during your career as a Dallas Police
11 Officer, sir?
12 A. Three hundred a year, actual murders
13 would be a conservative figure.
14 Q. All right.
15 A. Sometimes four hundred, but three
16 would be safe.
17 Q. Would it be fair to say then that you
18 were involved in say three to four thousand homicides
19 during your career?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And during that time period, did you
22 have occasion to interview persons accused of homicides?
23 A. Yes, sir, many of them.
24 Q. Can you give us any number there, of
25 the number of interviews that you may have conducted with
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5056

1 persons accused of homicide?
2 A. Several hundred, probably several
3 hundred, possibly as many as a thousand.
4 Q. Okay. Sir, I want to direct your
5 attention now to June the 18th of 1996. And on that
6 date, did you have occasion to go to the Rowlett Police
7 Department?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. And directing your attention to
10 sometime after 6:00 P.M. on that date, did you have
11 occasion to meet an individual by the name of Darlie Lynn
12 Routier?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Do you see that person in the
15 courtroom this morning?
16 A. Yes, sir, I do.
17 Q. Could you please point her out?
18 A. The lady over here to my left in the
19 gray jacket.
20 Q. Okay.
21
22 MR. GREG DAVIS: Your Honor, may the
23 record please reflect this witness has identified the
24 defendant in open Court.
25 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5057

1
2 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
3 Q. Sir, when you first met Darlie
4 Routier, where were you in the Rowlett Police Department?
5 A. We were in an interview room type area
6 in the criminal investigation division.
7 Q. All right. At some point then, did
8 you meet where it was just you and Mrs. Routier together?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. All right. And, did she know who you
11 were?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Okay. Did you discuss with her why
14 you wanted to meet with her?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. All right. And did you, during the
17 course of that conversation, give Mrs. Routier her
18 Miranda rights?
19 A. Yes, sir, I did.
20 Q. What was the purpose of you giving
21 those Miranda warnings to Mrs. Routier?
22 A. Well, it was my understanding it's a
23 requirement of the law, even though I'm not a police
24 officer, I'm acting as their agent. It's a requirement
25 of the law to give those warnings and admonitions before
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5058

1 any discussions.
2 Q. So it's my understanding, the Rowlett
3 Police Department had requested that you come there for
4 the purpose of speaking with Mrs. Routier; is that
5 correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Even though you are not still an
8 active police officer, you did give her the same Miranda
9 warnings that an active police officer would give her; is
10 that right?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And can you demonstrate for the jury
13 how you gave those warnings to Mrs. Routier that evening?
14 A. Demonstrate?
15 Q. Yes, sir.
16 A. Yes, sir. I read them from a standard
17 card, Miranda warning card.
18 Q. Okay. Do you have one of those cards
19 with you this morning, Mr. Parker?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Could you read those warnings this
22 morning in the same way that you read them to Mrs.
23 Routier that evening?
24 A. Yes, sir. "You have the right to
25 remain silent and not make any statement at all. Any
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5059

1 statement you make may be used against you at your
2 trial."
3 And I stopped at that point, and asked
4 her if she understood that right.
5 Q. What was her response?
6 A. She indicated yes, that she did.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. "Any statement you make may be used as
9 evidence against you in court."
10 And again, I stopped and asked her if
11 she understood that right, and she indicated that she
12 did.
13 Q. All right.
14 A. I then read item 3. "You have the
15 right to have a lawyer present to advise you, prior to
16 and during any questioning."
17 And I stopped at that point, and I
18 asked her if she understood that right, and she indicated
19 that she did.
20 "If you are unable to employ a lawyer,
21 you have the right to have a lawyer appointed to advise
22 you, prior to, and during any questioning."
23 And I stopped there and asked her if
24 she understood that and she indicated that she did.
25 "And you have the right to terminate
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5060

1 the interview at any time."
2 And I asked her if she understood that
3 and she indicated that she did.
4 Q. All right. Mr. Parker, while you were
5 giving those Miranda warnings to the defendant, did she
6 appear to understand what you were saying to her?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Did you believe that her responses
9 were appropriate to the questions that you were asking
10 her?
11 A. Oh, yes, sir.
12 Q. Did she appear to be impaired in any
13 way during the time that you were giving those warnings
14 to her?
15 A. No, sir, not at all.
16 Q. I believe that I asked you previously
17 whether or not she appeared to know who you are. In
18 fact, had you met her briefly the day before?
19 A. Yes, sir, I had.
20 Q. And, had you introduced yourself to
21 her?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Okay. Now, after you gave the Miranda
24 warnings to Mrs. Routier, did you begin having a
25 discussion with her?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5061

1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. And sir, let me ask you: During the
3 course of that discussion that you had with the
4 defendant, did the subject of her voluntary statement
5 come up?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you have a copy of her handwritten
8 voluntary statement with you at the time that you were
9 speaking with her?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Do you know the statement that we're
12 talking about? A 10-page handwritten statement in her
13 handwriting?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Is that the one that you are speaking
16 of?
17 A. That is the one I'm speaking of, yes.
18 Q. Did you show that voluntary statement
19 to Mrs. Routier?
20 A. Yes, sir, I did.
21 Q. And, did you ask Mrs. Routier to read
22 that voluntary statement in your presence?
23 A. I didn't ask her to read it. I showed
24 it to her and suggested that she read it.
25 Q. All right. What did she do when you
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5062

1 suggested that she read the voluntary statement?
2 A. She appeared to be reading it. She
3 looked at it.
4 Q. Okay. Can you demonstrate for the
5 members of the jury what you mean when you say that she
6 appeared to be reading the statement?
7 A. Well, I placed it on the table and she
8 appeared to be reading it. From time to time, she would
9 use her finger, she gave every indication that she was
10 reading it.
11 Q. All right. Mr. Parker, let me show
12 you Defendant's Exhibit 76-A. And does that appear to be
13 the voluntary statement of Darlie Routier that you handed
14 to her on June the 18th, sir?
15 A. Yes, sir, it's a copy of it.
16 Q. All right. And again, when she took
17 that document from you, again, with the document now in
18 your hand, can you demonstrate what she appeared to do
19 with it in your presence?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. For the record, you have been
22 looking at pages and you have been following with your
23 finger as you went along; is that right?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Did Mrs. Routier, to your knowledge,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5063

1 look at all 10 pages of that voluntary statement while
2 you were with her?
3 A. Yes, sir, I believe so. It appeared
4 that she did. She took more time on some pages than
5 others.
6 Q. You did it fairly quickly there for
7 the jury. How much time did Mrs. Routier spend looking
8 at that voluntary statement, sir?
9 A. Three or four minutes. She went
10 through the first few pages of it pretty rapidly. She
11 took a little longer on some of the others. And then
12 went through the closing pretty quickly.
13 Q. All right. When she concluded with
14 the voluntary statement, did you have a discussion with
15 Mrs. Routier about whether or not she wanted to make any
16 changes, corrections or any alterations to that voluntary
17 statement, sir?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. What did you -- what, if anything, did
20 you say to her?
21 A. I asked her if, since the time she had
22 given that statement, if she had had -- anything else had
23 occurred to her that she needed to add to this, or she
24 would like to add to this, or if there was anything in
25 there that didn't express what she was trying to express,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5064

1 that she needed to clarify.
2 Q. Okay. And what was her response?
3 A. No, that is exactly what happened.
4 Q. That is exactly what happened?
5 A. That is exactly what happened.
6 Q. Okay. Mr. Parker, I now want to turn
7 to another subject. During your discussions with Mrs.
8 Routier -- first of all, how long were you with Mrs.
9 Routier that evening?
10 A. About three hours.
11 Q. And, during the three hours that you
12 spent with her, were there occasions, sir, where you
13 confronted her with the fact that you believed that she
14 had killed her children?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you have an estimate of the number
17 of times that you confronted the defendant with that?
18 A. At least six times, probably, absolute
19 minimum, 10 or 12 times, a dozen times maximum.
20 Q. Okay. And, during the times that you
21 confronted her with that, did Mrs. Routier ever, ever
22 deny killing her children?
23 A. No, sir. She did not.
24 Q. Do you recall what statements, if any,
25 that she made to you, when you confronted her with the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5065

1 fact that you thought she had killed her children?
2 A. Yes, sir, I do. She always had the
3 same verbal response, "If I did it, I don't remember."
4 One occasion, she just didn't respond at all, she just
5 shrugged her shoulders.
6 Q. Mr. Parker, at the conclusion of your
7 conversation, was the defendant placed under arrest?
8 A. Well, it was my understanding she was
9 under arrest at the outset of the -- of our conversation
10 and I explained that to her.
11 Q. I take it then that the Rowlett Police
12 Department then took her into their custody at the end of
13 your conversation; is that right, sir?
14 A. Oh, yes, sir.
15
16 MR. GREG DAVIS: I'll pass the
17 witness, your Honor.
18
19
20 CROSS EXAMINATION
21
22 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
23 Q. Mr. Parker, just a thing or two. You
24 said you were a homicide officer for about 11 years?
25 A. Yes, sir, that's true.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5066

1 Q. And that was from what period to what
2 period?
3 A. 1973 to early part of 1985.
4 Q. All right. '73 to '85?
5 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
6 Q. All right. And approximately how many
7 murders were committed in Dallas County during each year,
8 just approximately?
9 A. Oh, Mr. Mulder, it varies quite a bit.
10 Q. Three to five hundred?
11 A. Yeah. Each year it got more and more.
12 I don't recall the stats.
13 Q. Would it be fair to say that it
14 probably ranged anywhere from four hundred, probably, in
15 the county on up to maybe five hundred or five hundred
16 and fifty?
17 A. I don't remember it ever breaking five
18 hundred. I can get that information for you exactly, if
19 you'd like.
20 Q. No, if we have got it approximate,
21 that is fine. But you don't recall it breaking five
22 hundred?
23 A. No, sir, I don't.
24 Q. Okay. So fair to say, it ranged from,
25 what, a low of three hundred to five hundred, maybe?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5067

1 A. No, sir, I would say it's three to
2 four hundred.
3 Q. Three to four hundred?
4 A. That is my best recollection.
5 Q. I'm talking about in the county?
6 A. Well, I'm not certain about the
7 county. I'm talking about the city. I misunderstood
8 you, I'm sorry.
9 Q. Well, maybe I didn't make myself
10 clear, but there would be perhaps another hundred that
11 occur in the county outside of the City of Dallas. Is
12 that not a fair statement?
13 A. I think that would be a fair guess,
14 yes.
15 Q. Okay. So if there were three hundred
16 say in 1973 in the City of Dallas, it might be another
17 hundred or so in the rest of the county of Dallas?
18 A. Might be.
19 Q. All right. Fair to say that probably
20 70 to 75 percent of the murders committed in Dallas
21 County are committed in the City of Dallas?
22 A. Again it is a guess, I would say that
23 would be a fair estimate, yes, sir.
24 Q. And the vast majority of those that
25 are committed outside of the City of Dallas are probably
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5068

1 committed in Grand Prairie, Mesquite, Irving and Garland.
2 Would you not say, the major suburbs of Dallas?
3 A. I would assume that, but I really have
4 no idea.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. I would assume that would be a --
7 Q. All right. Well, that makes sense
8 though?
9 A. Logically so, yes, sir.
10 Q. There probably are not many murders
11 committed in the unincorporated areas of Dallas County.
12 Would that be fair to say?
13 A. Well, yes, sir. The city absorbs the
14 lion's share of the County of Dallas, so, yes.
15 Q. Okay. And, the vast majority of
16 Dallas County is incorporated by one city or another,
17 isn't it?
18 A. Yes, sir, it is.
19 Q. Okay. So, those falling under the
20 sheriff's jurisdiction, which would be the unincorporated
21 area of Dallas County, would be very few, wouldn't they?
22 A. Well --
23 Q. Ten or twelve a year?
24 A. When you say under their jurisdiction,
25 I'm not sure that I understand what you are asking me.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5069

1 They have county-wide jurisdiction as police officers.
2 Q. Yes, sir, but --
3 A. The entire county.
4 Q. But as a matter of fact, Mr. Parker,
5 the Sheriff in Dallas County, the only area he patrols is
6 the unincorporated areas of Dallas County and any small
7 suburb with whom he might have a contract. Is that not
8 fair?
9 A. I think that would be, in terms of
10 patrol, that would be true. They're very active. The
11 county is very active in terms of their assistance to the
12 smaller police departments throughout the county, in
13 terms of the physical evidence units, and that sort of
14 thing. They become active in many of those areas.
15 Q. Garland has their own, of course,
16 police force and physical evidence unit, don't they?
17 A. Yes, sir, I believe they do.
18 Q. And so does Irving and so does Grand
19 Prairie and so does Mesquite, don't they?
20 A. I know Mesquite does. I don't know
21 about the others. I assume they do.
22 Q. Well, you work with Irving some, don't
23 you?
24 A. No, sir. If I have done anything for
25 Irving, it's been so long, I don't remember. I'm sure I
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5070

1 may have at some point in time.
2 Q. All right. There are -- other than
3 the major suburbs of Dallas, there are probably another,
4 what, 14 or 15 or 16, maybe, little suburbs that --
5 Sunnyvale, things like that?
6 A. In the County of Dallas?
7 Q. Yes, sir.
8 A. Oh, I'm sure there is, yes.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Parker, I would assume that
10 you were called in as an advisor in this case?
11 A. Yeah, I think that would be a fair
12 characterization.
13 Q. Okay. And were you paid for your
14 services?
15 A. Well, they agreed to pay me. I have
16 not been paid.
17 Q. Have you submitted a statement yet?
18 A. No, I haven't.
19 Q. All right. You expect to be paid by
20 them?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Okay. And how do you charge for
23 something like this, where you come in as an advisor?
24 A. I made an agreement with the --
25 discussed it with the chief of police.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5071

1 Q. Okay. And would you share that with
2 us?
3 A. The discussion or the agreement?
4 Q. Well, just tell us the dollar amount.
5 A. You want the amount? Is that what you
6 want?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. One dollar.
9 Q. Okay. So you are basically just doing
10 this as a gratis?
11 A. Basically, yeah, exactly.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. One dollar.
14 Q. Well, I assume that you have not been
15 paid yet though, have you?
16 A. I have not.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. In fairness, I have not invoiced them
19 yet, either.
20 Q. I assume you will be paid for your --
21 reimbursed for your expenses, won't you?
22 A. I hope so, yes, sir.
23 Q. Okay. The DA's office taking care of
24 your room and board and that sort of thing?
25 A. They haven't yet.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5072

1 Q. Well, you haven't checked out yet,
2 have you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you come in last night?
5 A. Yes, sir, I did.
6 Q. Did you drive down or fly down?
7 A. I flew down.
8 Q. To San Antonio?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Now, did you call Rowlett or did they
11 call you?
12 A. They called me.
13 Q. Okay. And, do you know who called
14 you, do you recall who called you?
15 A. No, it was one of the detectives, I
16 believe. I don't recall which one.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. I don't know -- until I was involved
19 out there, I don't know many of those people on a
20 personal basis.
21 Q. Okay. Hadn't worked with them before
22 on any cases of theirs?
23 A. Never.
24 Q. Okay. And, don't remember who called
25 you?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5073

1 A. No, sir, I don't.
2 Q. Okay. Did you go out there, I guess
3 the 17th?
4 A. I think it was the 16th, but I'm not
5 certain about that.
6 Q. 16th? Okay.
7 A. A couple of days before the arrest was
8 made.
9 Q. Okay. And did you meet with the
10 detectives out there?
11 A. Yes, sir, I did.
12 Q. Okay. And was your purpose in meeting
13 with them to go over their reports or their evidence?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And, do you recall who you met
16 with out there?
17 A. There were a lot of them, Mr. Mulder.
18 Q. Six or eight?
19 A. Six or eight probably, yes.
20 Q. Okay. You met in one of the
21 conference rooms out there, did you?
22 A. Yes, we did.
23 Q. The chief was there I guess, wasn't
24 he?
25 A. He was.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5074

1 Q. And you formalized your agreement at
2 that time I suspect?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. Okay. And how long did you go over
5 the evidence with them?
6 A. I spent most of that day out there,
7 several hours. I didn't keep up with the time. Most of
8 the day and late into the evening.
9 Q. Yes, sir. Did you go out to the
10 scene?
11 A. Not at that time. I did subsequently.
12 Q. When did you go out to the scene?
13 A. The following day. I think it was the
14 17th, but I'm not certain.
15 Q. Okay. How long did you spend with
16 them, Mr. Parker, on the 16th?
17 A. I'm sorry?
18 Q. How long did you spend out at Rowlett
19 the 16th?
20 A. The police department?
21 Q. Yes, sir.
22 A. The first day out there?
23 Q. Yes, if that was the 16th.
24 A. I think it was the 16th. Seven or
25 eight hours.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5075

1 Q. Seven or eight hours?
2 A. I think so, yes.
3 Q. Okay. And that was spent interviewing
4 the officers?
5 A. No, it was not.
6 Q. Okay. Did you look at photographs?
7 A. I looked at photographs.
8 Q. Okay. Did you look at all of the
9 photographs that were taken?
10 A. I looked at a considerable number of
11 them.
12 Q. Several hundred?
13 A. It was considerable number of
14 photographs. I, of course, didn't count them. A lot, a
15 lot of photographs.
16 Q. Did you give them any suggestions on
17 taking photographs?
18 A. No, I did not.
19 Q. Did you -- were you able to piece
20 together what had happened through the photographs, or at
21 the crime scene?
22 A. Yes, sir, some, to some degree. That
23 and a sketch of the floorplan.
24 Q. Did you think it was curious that they
25 didn't have overall shots of the scene, like you would
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5076

1 get, if you backed into a corner and shot all around and
2 went to another corner and went to various extremities of
3 the room?
4 A. Well, they did. They had a video,
5 that I looked at, a video that showed great detail.
6 Q. You have looked at a video?
7 A. Um-hum. (Witness nodding head
8 affirmatively.)
9 Q. Okay. How about photographs? Did you
10 find any photographs that were shot from the extremities
11 of the room?
12 A. Not that I recall.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Most of them appeared to be pretty
15 tight shots as I recall.
16 Q. Mr. Parker, did you interview the
17 paramedics?
18 A. No, sir, I did not.
19 Q. Did you review any of their reports?
20 A. No, sir, I don't believe I did.
21 Q. Okay. Is it fair to say, and when you
22 talk about three or four hundred cases a year that you,
23 as a supervisor, familiarize yourself with, you are not
24 talking about going to the scene of three or four hundred
25 murders a year, are you?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5077

1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. You are just talking about reviewing.
3 I assume you reviewed the homicide reports that came into
4 your unit?
5 A. Yes, of course, I reviewed every one
6 of those, and I would say I went to the scene at least
7 half of those now. You go out on many death cases, a
8 couple of hundred, or two or three hundred suicides a
9 year, that sort of things.
10 Q. Okay. Those would be -- I'd take it,
11 the cases in Dallas that you saw, how many would you
12 handle personally?
13 A. I had some role in at least half of
14 those cases, probably more.
15 Q. Would that be just going out to the
16 scene and making suggestions to the officers to whom the
17 case was assigned?
18 A. In some cases. More often than not, I
19 had a more active role than that.
20 Q. Okay. You would take part in
21 interrogation of the witnesses?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Okay. And many times interrogating
24 the suspect or the accused?
25 A. Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5078

1 Q. Okay. But at any rate, with the crime
2 scenes that you have seen, Mr. Parker, is it not fair to
3 say, that practically all crime scenes are contaminated
4 to one degree or another?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That is fair to say, isn't it?
7 A. I agree with that.
8 Q. Okay. And it is especially so if
9 there have been paramedics, or the first responders on
10 the scene were paramedics, it's especially so, isn't it?
11 A. Yes, sir, that is a common problem at
12 crime scenes.
13 Q. Okay. And you can multiply that if
14 there are multiple victims, can't you?
15 A. Well, I don't know about that.
16 Q. Well, it --
17 A. Well, it has to do with the
18 physical -- the size of the physical area more than, I
19 would think the number of people there, if I am
20 understanding your question.
21 Q. Well, maybe we could say the more
22 victims involved and the smaller the area, the more
23 confusion there is many times.
24 A. Well, yes, but on the other hand, if
25 it's confined to a smaller area, you know, where the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5079

1 limits of the crime scene actually stopped, is
2 undetermined at that time.
3 Q. Okay. But would it, in your judgment,
4 contaminate the scene if there were six or seven
5 paramedics on the scene rendering some sort of emergency
6 assistance to the victims?
7 A. Well --
8 Q. It could?
9 A. Well, I think if I am following your
10 question, there is always going to be something
11 characterized as contamination.
12 There is always going to be something
13 changed there when people are involved. They are going
14 to move things, change things.
15 Q. Sure.
16 A. Is that what you are asking me?
17 Q. Yes, sir, that is what I am asking
18 you.
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And perhaps paramedics are less,
21 maybe, conscious of the evidentiary value of certain
22 objects than police officers are. Would that be fair to
23 say?
24 A. Yes, I think so. Their focus is on
25 victims, and I think that would be fair to say, yeah.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5080

1 Q. And you have seen situations, I dare
2 say, where paramedics have moved pieces of evidence?
3 A. I have, yes.
4 Q. Okay. And matter of fact, you have
5 seen cases, have you not, where police officers have
6 moved evidence?
7 A. I have, yes.
8 Q. Everybody wants to touch the gun,
9 don't they?
10 A. It's a common concern, yes, sir.
11 Q. Okay. And, everybody wants to see
12 where it happened, don't they?
13 A. Everybody wants to come in and look
14 around.
15 Q. Mr. Parker, everybody wants to get a
16 drink of water, everybody wants to use the bathroom,
17 don't they?
18 A. That is a common problem, yes, sir.
19 Q. Okay. Now, in going through the crime
20 scene many times, Mr. Parker, don't you find that
21 officers in their walk-through, or in there curiosity
22 have actually kicked evidence around?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Such as, not this case, but such as
25 cartridge cases, in a shooting where cartridge cases are
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5081

1 ejected, they will kick them around on the floor?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. In cases where there is traffic and
4 there might be objects on the floor, those could be
5 kicked around, those objects?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Small objects?
8 A. Yes, of course.
9 Q. And you have seen that happen, haven't
10 you?
11 A. Of course, yes.
12 Q. And it's not unusual?
13 A. It's not unusual, no, sir.
14 Q. Mr. Parker, you are a skilled
15 interrogator, are you not?
16 A. I have spent a considerable amount of
17 time doing that.
18 Q. Well, I mean, don't be modest. You're
19 a skilled interrogator, are you not?
20 A. By definition, I'll leave that to you.
21 Q. Well, I think you are. And when you
22 interrogate someone, of course, you would -- it would be
23 fair to say that you would have the advantage, would you
24 not, with your experience?
25 A. It depends on who you're talking to,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5082

1 Mr. Mulder.
2 Q. Well, let's say you are talking to a
3 26 year old who has not had any experience with the
4 police as opposed to a five-time loser who has been in
5 and out of the joint, most of his adult life and is
6 maybe --
7 A. Well, can you define this advantage
8 that you are speaking of so I might be --
9 Q. Well, you are certainly more mature
10 and more experienced, are you not?
11 A. More --
12 Q. Than a 26 year old?
13 A. I am now, yes.
14 Q. Than say Darlie Routier would have
15 been? Or was at the time you talked to her?
16 A. I'm more mature then and now, yes.
17 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Parker, can you
18 tell us basically what you understood about the evidence
19 at that -- at the time that you first talked to her?
20 A. What I understood about the evidence?
21 Q. Yes, sir.
22 A. Well, I understood that the call came
23 in about 2:00 o'clock that morning, and the report was
24 that there was an intruder there. There were obviously
25 two children murdered.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5083

1 The investigation of the evidence that
2 was passed along to me indicated that it couldn't
3 possibly have happened that way. The evidence was in
4 direct contradiction to the way the crime was reported to
5 have occurred.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I can give you more details about
8 that.
9 Q. Yes. Did they discuss with you the
10 screen that had been cut?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And did you have access to Mr.
13 Linch's report?
14 A. I didn't see any written report from
15 Mr. Linch, but I was informed -- that I recall. But I
16 was informed, I recall clearly, that the knife that was
17 used to cut the screen was found in the kitchen in a
18 block that contains knives, a block that the knife had
19 been found there that was used to cut that screen.
20 Q. They just gave you the shorthand
21 rendition?
22 A. Yeah. I don't think Linch had even
23 prepared a report at that time. I don't remember
24 reading --
25 Q. Did you talk with Charlie Linch?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5084

1 A. Not about this, no.
2 Q. Okay. Did they -- when they gave you
3 the information on the screen and the knife, did you see
4 the knife?
5 A. No, I saw a picture of it.
6 Q. Did they tell you that it was a bread
7 knife, Mr. Parker?
8 A. A bread knife?
9 Q. This is not the knife, but did they
10 tell you that the knife that had been used to cut the
11 screen was a bread knife?
12 A. No.
13 Q. They didn't?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. Did they tell you -- they just
16 told you that they had the knife that had cut the screen?
17 A. Yes. They told me it came out of that
18 set --
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. -- of knives that was in the kitchen.
21 Q. Well, did they tell you that, actually
22 what Mr. Linch had told them, was that he had, after the
23 knife had been processed for fingerprints, that he had
24 examined the serrated blade of the knife, and in some
25 area, approximately one inch in from the point and
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5085

1 approximately five inches from the point -- in this area
2 right in here -- that he had found a fiberglass -- what
3 appeared to him to be a part of a fiberglass rod, and
4 that the screen threads, the threads of the screen that
5 made up the -- made up the fabric screen on that window,
6 that each of those threads had approximately 50
7 fiberglass rods in it, and that they were covered with a
8 rubber-like PVC material. And that he found one of those
9 fiberglass rods on that knife, and found some rubber
10 dust. And that he couldn't say that the rubber dust and
11 the rod had actually been together at any time, in fact,
12 the only thing he could do was compare the rod and the
13 rubber dust with PVC from the screen and the fiberglass
14 from the screen, and say that they appeared under a
15 microscope to be the same.
16 That the objects on the knife were so
17 minuscule that he couldn't subject them to any sort of
18 scientific test to determine whether or not these items
19 on the knife actually came from the scene. Did they give
20 you that much detail?
21
22 MR. GREG DAVIS: I'm sorry. I have to
23 object to the misleading nature unless he also includes
24 the fact that the glass material was also embedded into
25 the rubber material and he has stated that he believes
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5086

1 they were deposited at the same time.
2 THE COURT: All right. With that
3 statement, you may answer the question.
4 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I
5 understood the question.
6
7 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
8 Q. Well, I just wanted to know if they --
9 if he told you that the -- if they gave you the absolute,
10 and told you that the knife was used to cut the screen,
11 or if they gave you the long rendition, and said simply
12 that, what they found on the knife under a microscope,
13 that it was so minuscule, one, that they couldn't subject
14 it to any sort of scientific test other than a
15 microscope; and two, that all they could say was that it
16 was -- it appeared to be the same as the screen. And
17 that meant it was consistent with having come from the
18 screen but it could have come from someplace else as
19 well. Did they give you that much detail?
20 A. Well, they told me that Charlie Linch,
21 who I have known for many years and have great confidence
22 in, had examined the knife found in the kitchen, and that
23 it was his firm conclusion that that was the knife that
24 was used to cut that screen, due to some material or some
25 process that Mr. Linch had used. They didn't go into
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5087

1 great microscopic detail.
2 Q. And, you would suspect then that he
3 would tell this jury the same thing if he were under
4 oath, wouldn't you?
5 A. I would expect he would -- who would
6 tell the jury what?
7 Q. Mr. Linch would.
8 A. I feel certain Mr. Linch could
9 probably explain it in much better detail than I could.
10 Q. All right. But you would suspect that
11 Mr. Linch would tell this jury the same thing that you
12 understood that he was -- the position he was taking?
13 A. Basically, sure.
14 Q. Okay. Were you also told, Mr. Parker,
15 that Mr. Linch had identified one of the defendant's
16 blonde hairs in the window?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You were not told that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. Did --
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did Mr. Linch, this man in whom you
23 have great confidence, did he ever tell you that he had
24 initially identified a hair on the window as being that
25 from the defendant?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5088

1 A. No, sir, as I told you, I didn't talk
2 to Mr. Linch.
3 Q. Okay. But he didn't tell you in a
4 subsequent conversation?
5 A. No, I have not had any conversations
6 with him about this case at all.
7 Q. All right. So, you had heard about
8 the screen; is that right?
9 A. Um-hum. (Witness nodding head
10 affirmatively.) Yes, sir.
11 Q. Okay. And did they tell you that the
12 mulch outside the window had not been disturbed?
13 A. They did, yes, sir.
14 Q. And did you put significance in that?
15 A. Some, not an overwhelming
16 significance.
17 Q. Why did you put significance in that?
18 A. Why did I put significance in the fact
19 that the mulch was undisturbed?
20 Q. Yes, sir.
21 A. Well, someone leaving in haste from a
22 murder scene you would assume is going to be very bloody,
23 in their haste, you could expect to see some disturbance
24 there, to one degree or another.
25 Q. Why would you expect to see that?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5089

1 A. I mean, you can only draw a fair
2 conclusion though from what you do see, versus a safer
3 assumption from what you don't find.
4 Q. Okay. Why would you expect to see
5 some disturbance in the mulch?
6 A. Well, it would be a distinct
7 possibility, Mr. Mulder, that someone would step in that
8 in their haste.
9 Q. But why would they step in the mulch?
10 A. Because it's there and it's kind of in
11 the way.
12 Q. Oh, you were led to believe that the
13 mulch was in the way and they would have to step in the
14 mulch?
15 A. Well, I looked at the photographs and
16 I wouldn't say you had to step in it, but it would be
17 very easy to do, yes.
18 Q. The mulch is actually in a flowerbed,
19 isn't it?
20 A. Yes, sir, as I recall.
21 Q. Or did you think that the mulch was
22 below the window?
23 A. I was thinking the mulch you were
24 referring was going to be outside the fence.
25 Q. Outside the fence?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5090

1 A. I thought that was what you were
2 referring to.
3 Q. Out in the alley part?
4 A. I suppose you could characterize it
5 that way, outside of the fence.
6 Q. Could you show me the photograph, Mr.
7 Parker, where the mulch -- has the mulch outside in the
8 alley?
9 A. I don't have any photographs with me.
10 Q. Okay. But that was significant to
11 you, the mulch in the ally, was it?
12 A. I said it was some sort of
13 significance, Mr. Mulder. I said, it's not overwhelming.
14 Q. Okay. Did you -- did the fence, was
15 that significant to you?
16 A. Somewhat, yes, from what I understood
17 that it would be.
18 Q. What did you think was significant
19 about the fence that kept the mulch, I guess, out of the
20 back yard?
21 A. What?
22 Q. No. What did you -- I'll be fair with
23 you. There isn't any mulch in the alley.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Okay. What was significant about the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5091

1 fence?
2 A. Well, what I recall being significant
3 about the fence, it was white, I was informed that the
4 gate was very difficult to close. That it was closed
5 when the officers arrived, and it takes a considerable
6 amount of effort to open and close it.
7 The fact it was -- it seemed
8 inconsistent with a person leaving a murder scene to stop
9 and close that gate. The only other alternative would be
10 to crawl over it. Painted white, I was informed that
11 there were no blood marks, no shoe scuff marks on this
12 white fence. That outside, there was a flowerbed, soft
13 earth, where, if a person did vault over a fence that
14 high, you might expect to see some imprints and there
15 were none.
16 Q. Why would someone vault over the fence
17 when they could go through a gate?
18 A. Well --
19 Q. Was it just for a challenge?
20 A. I don't know, possibly. Yes, it
21 doesn't fit, it doesn't make sense that they would do
22 that. It doesn't make sense that they would close the
23 gate. What I was informed, was that that gate was very
24 difficult to deal with. You might vault over the fence.
25 Q. You were not advised that the gate had
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5092

1 been worked on that night?
2 A. Worked on?
3 Q. Um-hum. (Attorney nodding head
4 affirmatively.)
5 A. No.
6 Q. You weren't?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And that that was verified by the
9 neighbor behind the Routier's house?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I don't recall anything about that.
13 Q. Did you look at the gate yourself?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. You don't know whether it had a
16 scuff mark on the bottom of the gate where someone had
17 perhaps pushed against it?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. You said that someone would be
20 very bloody from this scene; is that right?
21 A. Well, you could certainly expect to
22 see some blood on them, I would assume, yes.
23 Q. What, blood on their hands?
24 A. I would think that would be a safe
25 assumption, yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5093

1 Q. Blood on their hands?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. I mean, blood that you could
4 just wipe off?
5 A. I think you can wipe blood off, yeah.
6 Q. You wouldn't expect their hands to be
7 dripping with blood, would you?
8 A. Quite possibly, yes.
9 Q. I mean, would you?
10 A. Yes, quite possibly, yes.
11 Q. Both hands?
12 A. Quite possibly, yes.
13 Q. Okay. Did you determine how many
14 knives were used in the commission of this offense?
15 A. I was informed that, at the time that
16 I was there, it appeared, from the preliminary
17 information to the investigators, that there was only one
18 knife.
19 Q. Only one knife used?
20 A. That is what I was informed, yes, sir.
21 Q. Okay. Did you accept that at face
22 value?
23 A. Sure.
24 Q. Okay. Would it change your opinion if
25 more knives were involved?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5094

1 A. Change my opinion about what?
2 Q. About anything?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. So it really didn't make any
5 difference how many knives were involved?
6 A. Nothing significant that I can think
7 of, no.
8 Q. Okay. Did you interview Mr. Routier?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Why not?
11 A. I met with him and talked with him
12 very briefly.
13 Q. You talking about --
14 A. Introduction.
15 Q. Less than 30 seconds?
16 A. No, longer than that.
17 Q. A minute?
18 A. Couple, two or three minutes.
19 Q. Two or three minutes?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. You just introduced yourself and said
22 hello?
23 A. Yes, sir. I told him I was involved
24 in the case.
25 Q. Was that before or after you
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5095

1 interviewed Mrs. Routier?
2 A. Before.
3 Q. Before. That same day?
4 A. Same day as what?
5 Q. The same day that you interviewed her?
6 A. Yes, they were both together.
7 Q. Okay. Were they -- were you alone
8 when you were interviewing Mrs. Routier?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. At the police station, yes, sir.
12 Q. You were put in a -- what -- an
13 interrogation room?
14 A. We were in rooms they use for
15 interviews there, yes.
16 Q. Okay. Did it have a two-way mirror?
17 A. No. I asked them if they had a room
18 that had a recording device, a camera or a mirror that we
19 could use. They had none available.
20 Q. Didn't have anything available?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. When did you ask them about that, Mr.
23 Parker?
24 A. The night I talked to her.
25 Q. Okay.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5096

1 A. The night she was arrested.
2 Q. Had you decided to interrogate her
3 before that day?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Had you decided on the 16th or 17th or
6 what?
7 A. Probably the 17th. It was the day
8 before she was arrested.
9 Q. Okay. And, of course, like you say,
10 the sheriff is cooperative. That could have been done at
11 the sheriff's office, couldn't it, interview?
12 A. It could have been, I suppose.
13 Q. I mean they have -- if you wanted to
14 record it, you certainly had -- you've got a video camera
15 yourself, don't you?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. You could have brought your camera,
18 couldn't you?
19 A. Well, I could have, yes, I have got
20 several cameras I could have brought, but --
21 Q. You have recording devices as well,
22 don't you?
23 A. Um-hum. (Witness nodding head
24 affirmatively.)
25 Q. Matter of fact, you could have done it
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5097

1 in your office, couldn't you?
2 A. Sure.
3 Q. All right. Well, I take it just you
4 and Mrs. Routier were in the room together?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. No one else?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Okay. Was there a microphone in there
9 so that you -- so that the other folks could monitor what
10 was going on between the two of you?
11 A. Not that I'm aware of. I asked them
12 if they had one and intended to try and record it, if
13 they did have one.
14 Q. They said it was still out at the
15 cemetery?
16 A. No, sir, they didn't say that.
17
18 MR. GREG DAVIS: We're going to object
19 to that.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 MR. GREG DAVIS: If you -- again, if
22 we could have an understanding. I thought we did.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Mulder.
24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir.
25 THE COURT: Let's stick to the points
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5098

1 we have all agreed to.
2 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, I
3 was just asking if the --
4 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Mulder, you know
5 what was agreed to and stay with it. Is that clear?
6 Thank you. Ask your next question.
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: What was agreed
8 to, Judge? I don't recall agreeing to anything.
9 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Mulder,
10 hearings have been held in this case.
11 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, I
12 understand hearings have been held, Judge. But I take
13 issue with the Court when you say I've agreed to
14 something. Now, I'll abide by the Court's rulings, but I
15 have not agreed to anything.
16 THE COURT: Well, the Court has made a
17 ruling there. Let's move on to the next question.
18 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: The Court has
19 not made a ruling with respect to this witness.
20 THE COURT: No. Just -- ask the next
21 question, please.
22 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, that was my
23 next question. I was going to ask it again.
24 THE COURT: Well, then ask the
25 following question, please.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5099

1
2 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
3 Q. That was not a high priority,
4 recording the conversation, was it, Mr. Parker? Or was
5 it? Maybe it was.
6 A. I would have preferred to have it
7 recorded if they had it available, yes.
8 Q. Well, you knew going out -- you have
9 recording equipment yourself, don't you?
10 A. Well, yes, sir, but if you -- it would
11 have had to have been something that you would put up in
12 the middle of the table, a small recorder, something of
13 that sort or a big camera on a tripod. I don't prefer to
14 do that. That is very distracting.
15 Q. How do you like to do it,
16 surreptitiously?
17 A. Well, surreptitiously in the sense
18 that -- if that means secret, no. I think it would be
19 unfair to record someone and not tell them that you are
20 doing it. But, I have that -- for example, in my office
21 the camera is visible there and make it clear to them
22 that they are being recorded.
23 Q. Okay. Suffice it to say that that was
24 not a priority or you could have done it at your office
25 or done it at the sheriff's office or -- Richardson has
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5100

1 some fine recording equipment, don't they?
2 A. Well, it's not a priority and the
3 reason it was easier to do at Rowlett is because you
4 don't know how things are going to develop there, and

5 it's their agency, it would seem the logical place to do
6 it would be the Rowlett Police Department. There was not
7 any big discussion about that. That was not a point of
8 concern to anyone.
9 Q. Mr. Parker, was the press -- had they
10 all been notified, the media, when you got out there?
11 A. Got out where, Mr. Mulder?
12 Q. Got out to the Rowlett Police
13 Department, Mr. Parker.
14 A. Oh, I'm sure they were.
15 Q. They were already out there?
16 A. I saw some of those mobile units there
17 on the parking lot.
18 Q. They were there before the Routiers
19 got there, weren't they?
20 A. Well, are you talking about on the
21 night they arrived -- the Routiers arrived at the police
22 department?
23 Q. Yes, sir.
24 A. I was already inside. If they were
25 there when I got there, I assume they were still out
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5101

1 there, but I have no idea.
2 Q. Okay. So, and I take it you did not
3 alert them?
4 A. Absolutely not.
5 Q. So it must have been someone there at
6 the Rowlett Police Department?
7 A. Well, I don't have any idea.
8 Q. Well, you could probably make that
9 assumption?
10 A. No, I wouldn't make that assumption.
11 With a case of this nature, they generally -- it's my
12 experience, they stay real close to the police
13 departments. No one has to notify them. They are pretty
14 good about finding out themselves.
15 Q. Okay. Did you make any notes, Mr.
16 Parker, during your interrogation?
17 A. No, I did not.
18 Q. Okay. Did you make any report after
19 you had concluded your interview?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You just weren't asked to make a
22 report?
23 A. No.
24 Q. When is the last time that you talked
25 with the district attorney's office?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5102

1 A. I talked to Mr. Davis this morning.
2 Q. Did you talk to him last night as
3 well?
4 A. Um-hum. (Witness nodding head
5 affirmatively.)
6 Q. And about how long did you talk to him
7 last night?
8 A. About 15 minutes.
9 Q. Okay. Who picked you up down in San
10 Antonio?
11 A. One of the district attorney's
12 investigators.
13 Q. Which one, do you remember?
14 A. Mrs. Kinne.
15 Q. Just the two of you?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay. What time did you come in last
18 night?
19 A. I think I arrived at five o'clock.
20 Q. Okay. Arrived in San Antonio at five
21 o'clock?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Got back up here, I guess around 6:00
24 o'clock or so?
25 A. Oh, a little later than that, 7:00, I
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5103

1 think.
2 Q. Okay. Now, just, Mr. Parker, talking
3 about your techniques in general, not in this particular
4 case, but when you interrogate someone, I suspect that
5 it's part of your technique to be friendly with them at
6 first?
7 A. I try to be friendly all the time, Mr.
8 Mulder.
9 Q. Well, it depends on how cooperative
10 they are, I guess, doesn't it?
11 A. No, I don't think so.
12 Q. Okay. But you in -- I guess, in that
13 vein you attempt to, I assume get their confidence, don't
14 you?
15 A. Well, I don't think you are ever going
16 to get their confidence, Mr. Mulder.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. If I understand what you are saying.
19 Q. All right. But you are friendly?
20 A. Sure.
21 Q. And try to be nice to them?
22 A. Try to be, yes, sir.
23 Q. And in this case you were nice to
24 Darlie, weren't you?
25 A. Absolutely.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5104

1 Q. Okay. Did you discuss with her the
2 evidence that you understood the Rowlett Police
3 Department had?
4 A. Yes, sir. I showed her a copy of it.
5 I showed her a copy of the affidavit for the arrest
6 warrant.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. She looked at it very carefully.
9 Q. All right. And did you also have the
10 benefit of her husband's statement?
11 A. Had the benefit of it?
12 Q. Yes, sir.
13 A. Yes, I had read it.
14
15 THE COURT: I think this would be the
16 perfect time then. Let's take a 15 minute -- let's take
17 a 20 minute break. Be back at 25 after.
18
19 (Whereupon, a short
20 Recess was taken,
21 After which time,
22 The proceedings were
23 Resumed on the record,
24 In the presence and

25 Hearing of the defendant
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5105

1 And the jury, as follows:)
2
3 THE COURT: All right. Are both sides
4 ready to bring the jury back?
5 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir, we are
6 ready.
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir, we are
8 ready.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10
11 (Whereupon, the jury
12 Was returned to the
13 Courtroom, and the
14 Proceedings were
15 Resumed on the record,
16 In open court, in the
17 Presence and hearing
18 Of the defendant,
19 As follows:)
20
21 THE COURT: Let the record reflect
22 that all parties in the trial are present and the jury is
23 seated.
24 Mr. Mulder.
25 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I don't know
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5106

1 whether this is in evidence or not, Judge.
2
3 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
4 Q. But let me show you what's been marked
5 for identification and record purposes as Defendant's
6 Exhibit No. 98 and State's Exhibit No. 141, Mr. Parker.
7 Defendant's Exhibit 99, Mr. Parker.
8
9 (Whereupon, the above
10 Mentioned item was marked
11 For identification only,
12 As Defendant's Exhibit No. 99,
13 After which time the
14 Proceedings were resumed
15 As follows:)
16
17 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
18 Q. Is that the statement that you read,
19 that you understood was given by Darin Routier?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And, you say you talked to him for --
22 A. Very briefly.
23 Q. Okay. You had no reason to doubt this
24 account, did you?
25 A. No.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5107

1 Q. All right. And based on your
2 evaluation of the situation and your conversations with
3 the Rowlett Police Department, you believe this was
4 truthful, didn't you?
5 A. For the most part. I didn't see
6 anything there that indicated to me that he was involved
7 in the crime.
8 Q. Well --
9 A. And I don't recall anything standing
10 out in my mind as being -- I had a big problem with, but
11 it's been a long time since I've looked at it.
12 Q. Yes, sir.
13
14 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: We will offer in
15 evidence what has been marked and identified as
16 Defendant's Exhibit 99.
17 MR. GREG DAVIS: No objection.
18 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit 99 is
19 admitted.
20
21 (Whereupon, the item
22 Heretofore mentioned
23 Was received in evidence
24 As Defendant's Exhibit No. 99
25 For all purposes,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5108

1 After which time, the
2 Proceedings were resumed
3 As follows:)
4
5 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
6 Q. Mr. Parker, during your three hours
7 that you spent with Mrs. Routier, she was polite to you,
8 wasn't she?
9 A. Yes, sir, I would say so.
10 Q. Okay. And, I guess --
11
12 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I believe that's
13 all. Thank you.
14
15
16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
17
18 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
19 Q. Mr. Parker, I just have one question.
20 Since you left the Dallas Police Department, has Mr.
21 Mulder ever employed you?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. On more than one occasion?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5109

1 MR. GREG DAVIS: No further questions.
2
3
4 RECROSS EXAMINATION
5
6 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
7 Q. We're personal friends, are we not?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9
10 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Okay. I believe
11 that's all. Thanks.
12 MR. GREG DAVIS: No further questions.
13 THE COURT: All right. Thank you,
14 sir. You may leave.
15 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. Your
16 Honor, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, at this time the
17 State of Texas rests its case in rebuttal.
18 THE COURT: All right. And I
19 believe -- thank you, Mr. Davis. That's all the rebuttal
20 testimony you will be hearing from the State's witnesses.
21 And you will be ready at 1:30; is that correct?
22 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Our witnesses,
23 I believe, they are in transit. I think we can be ready
24 by 1:00, because I think they will be arriving -- well, I
25 don't know what time -- 12:00?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5110

1 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: We ought to be
2 ready by 1:00 o'clock. I wouldn't think that it would
3 take more than an hour and a half or two.
4 THE COURT: Well, to be on the safe
5 side, let's be on safe side, let's make it 1:15. If
6 everybody will be back by 1:15.
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, I want
8 them to know that we won't take more than about an hour
9 and a half, so if they have got --
10 THE COURT: We understand. So if you
11 will be -- if the jury will be back at 1:15, please. The
12 same instructions as always. Do not discuss the case
13 among yourselves. Do no investigation on your own.
14 Please ignore any publicity that you
15 see, read or hear about it. Thank you. If the viewing
16 audience will remain seated, please, until the jury
17 clears the courthouse.
18
19 (Whereupon, the jury
20 Was excused from the
21 Courtroom, and the
22 Proceedings were held
23 In the presence of the
24 Defendant, with his
25 Attorney, but outside
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5111

1 The presence of jury
2 As follows:)
3
4 THE COURT: Can I see the attorneys a
5 minute, please.
6
7 (Whereupon, a short
8 discussion was held
9 at the side of the
10 bench, between the Court,
11 and the attorneys for
12 both sides in the case,
13 off the record, and outside
14 of the hearing of the
15 Jury.)
16
17 (Whereupon, a short
18 recess was taken,
19 after which time,
20 the proceedings were
21 resumed on the record,
22 in the presence and
23 hearing of the defendant,
24 as follows:)
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5112

1 THE COURT: All right. Let the record
2 reflect that these proceedings are being held outside of
3 the presence of the jury and all parties at trial are
4 present.
5 Please raise your right hand, sir.
6
7 (Whereupon, the witness
8 Was duly sworn by the
9 Court, to speak the truth,
10 The whole truth and
11 Nothing but the truth,
12 After which, the
13 Proceedings were
14 Resumed as follows:)
15
16 THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or
17 affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
19 help you God?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
21 THE COURT: You may have a seat here.
22 You have testified many times before, I assume?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have.
24 THE COURT: You understand the Rule of
25 Evidence. When you are not testifying you have to remain
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5113

1 outside the courtroom.
2 THE WITNESS: Oh, the Rule, yes, sir.
3 THE COURT: Don't talk about your
4 testimony to anybody who has testified. In other words,
5 don't compare it. You may talk to the attorneys for
6 either side. If someone tries to talk to you about your
7 testimony, please tell the attorney for the side who
8 called you.
9 All right. Gentlemen, this is going
10 to be a 705 hearing, so let's get directly to the point,
11 please. Mr. Shook.
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5114

1 Whereupon,
2
3
4 RICHARD E. COONS,
5
6 was called as a witness, for the purpose of this hearing,
7 having been first duly sworn by the Court to speak the
8 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
9 testified in open court, as follows:
10
11
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13
14 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
15 Q. Dr. Coons?
16 A. Yes.
17
18 THE COURT: Please state your name for
19 the court reporter and spell your last name.
20 THE WITNESS: Richard E. Coons,
21 C-O-O-N-S.
22
23 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
24 Q. Doctor, we're going to have a short
25 705 hearing. What I need to know first, if you could
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5115

1 just state the opinions that you have been called on to
2 testify to today in court?
3 A. I have been asked to testify about
4 memory, the formation of memory, how memory can be
5 altered or impaired, basically those things.
6 Q. Okay. Is that the only opinion you
7 have come to testify on today, is about memory, how it
8 can be altered, as far as you know?
9 A. I think that is correct.
10 Q. Could you --
11
12 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: If I might?
13 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Yes.
14 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: With respect
15 to memory, I think Dr. Coons would go into general
16 knowledge as to how memory formed, memory is retrieved,
17 all of the aspects of how memory is created, how memory
18 is affected, and how memory is altered in some situations
19 by traumatic events.
20 Now, that opinion, obviously,
21 potentially goes to a great number of issues in the case,
22 but that is the general subject matter.
23 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Well, is that the
24 sum of your, as far as --
25 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Well, if I
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5116

1 might go on. I think I can help in listing some things.
2 He can testify to the traumatic
3 effects of an event upon memory. How memory is affected,
4 that memory can be altered, that medications can have an
5 impact upon memory and recall, that dissociation is a
6 frequent aspect of trauma-induced altered memory, and
7 that as a result of dissociation, there are parts of
8 traumatic events that may not be recalled.
9 Also, he will talk about how -- he
10 might give opinions about how memory can be affected by
11 suggestions, and how those suggestions can cause gaps in
12 memory to be grasped by the mind and grasped by the
13 memory, and that a person in those situations can be
14 suggested and that suggestions to fill in gaps and the
15 mind's willingness to fill in gaps can lead to altered
16 memories.
17
18 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
19 Q. Dr. Coons, could you tell us then --
20 first of all, does that sound like a fair rendition of
21 what you think -- of the opinions you will be rendering
22 today?
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. Okay. Could you tell us, in summary
25 form, the underlying facts and data that you have that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5117

1 has caused you to form those opinions?
2 In other words, what do you rely on
3 for those opinions?
4 A. Well, I am physician, I am
5 psychiatrist and I have done a lot of forensic
6 psychiatry, worked with trauma victims and have read
7 considerably in the literature about memory and memory
8 distortion. I have been to national meetings that had
9 programs about memory and so forth.
10 Q. In regards to this particular case,
11 have you interviewed the defendant, Darlie Routier?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Have you performed or had any tests
14 performed on her personally?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And have you reviewed any documents or
17 evidence from this case?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Okay. So --
20 A. Well, I'm sorry. I have seen a few
21 photographs and that is it.
22 Q. And that is it?
23 A. I believe that is it.
24 Q. Have you reviewed any of her
25 statements or her husband's statements?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5118

1 A. I don't think so.
2 Q. Okay. Have you been given summaries
3 of the evidence or the case at all?
4 A. Very slightly, but not much.
5 Q. Are you using those summaries of the
6 case in any way to form your opinions that you're going
7 to render today?
8 A. I think I am going to be given some
9 material hypothetically, but -- so I don't have any
10 summary of the case.
11 Q. All right. And when were you
12 retained, Dr. Coons?
13 A. Mr. Mosty consulted with me back in
14 mid-December. He came to Austin where I live and talked
15 with me about it. And then I was called last night by
16 Mr. Mosty and asked if I would come over here today.
17 Q. Okay.
18
19 THE COURT: Is that it?
20 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Let me add a
21 couple things, your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Sure.
23 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: In order to
24 be as complete as I can be.
25 THE COURT: Sure.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5119

1 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: With respect
2 to -- in a hypothetical situation, with respect to
3 questioning of a person who has been the subject of a
4 traumatic event and then, after the traumatic event has
5 been involved in numerous recounting of the story, and
6 also had that story recounted to them, Dr. Coons may
7 express an opinion as to a person's typical reaction to
8 questioning under that atmosphere.
9 THE COURT: That is fine.
10 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Just so the
11 Court knows, and just so the Court also knows, there
12 might be some response with respect to how memory is
13 affected in that situation.
14 THE COURT: Well, I think that is what
15 he said. All right. That's fine. Let's bring in the
16 jury.
17
18 (Whereupon, the jury
19 Was returned to the
20 Courtroom, and the
21 Proceedings were
22 Resumed on the record,
23 In open court, in the
24 Presence and hearing
25 Of the defendant,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5120

1 As follows:)
2
3 THE COURT: Let the record reflect
4 that all parties in the trial are present and the jury is
5 seated.
6 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this
7 witness has already been sworn.
8 Mr. Douglass.
9 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Thank you.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5121

1 Whereupon,
2
3
4 DR. RICHARD E. COONS,
5
6 Was called as a witness, in Rebuttal for the Defense,
7 having been first duly sworn to speak the truth, the
8 whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in open
9 court, as follows:
10
11
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13
14 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS:
15 Q. Would you please state your name.
16 A. Richard E. Coons, C-O-O-N-S.
17 Q. Are you a medical doctor?
18 A. Yes, I am.
19 Q. Are you a psychiatrist?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where do you practice psychiatry?
22 A. Austin, Texas.
23 Q. And how long have you practiced
24 psychiatry in Austin, Texas?
25 A. Twenty-two and a half years.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5122

1 Q. With respect to your educational
2 background in medicine, would you please tell the jury
3 what your training and background is.
4 A. Yes. I attended the University of
5 Texas medical branch in Galveston, graduated with a
6 Doctor of Medicine Degree in 1968.
7 I did a rotating internship at the
8 University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati General Hospital in
9 1968 and '69. That basically means rotating through
10 surgery, internal medicine, pediatrics, OB/GYN, emergency
11 medicine and so forth.
12 Then, when I completed my internship,
13 I moved to -- I came back to Galveston and did a
14 three-year general psychiatry residency. Basically, that
15 is specialty training in my area, which has to do with
16 the diagnosis and treatment of nervous and mental
17 disorders.
18 When I completed the residency, I was
19 chief resident in the department of psychiatry and
20 neurology in 1971 and '72.
21 When I completed my medical training
22 in psychiatry, I then served as a major in the United
23 States Army Medical Corps at Fort Sam Houston in San
24 Antonio. I ran the drug and alcohol program for Fort Sam
25 for two years, and was a psychiatric consultant for
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5123

1 Brooke General Hospital.
2 When I completed my military duty in
3 1974 I moved to Austin, where I have practiced ever since
4 in general and forensic psychiatry.
5 I am board certified by the American
6 Board of Psychiatry and Neurology as of February, 1975.
7 My medical license is on file with the district clerk in
8 Travis County where I practice.
9 Q. Do you have any privileges at local
10 hospitals in Austin?
11 A. Well, I'm not hospitalizing at the
12 present time. I took -- I am in a clinic of 12 doctors
13 and several of us just do office practice and don't do
14 hospital practice.
15 Q. All right. In the course of your
16 experience in forensic psychiatry, have you had occasions
17 to testify in court?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And, can you tell the jury perhaps how
20 many times you have testified in court, and on what
21 subjects you typically testify in court and render
22 opinions for juries on?
23 A. Since 1974 when I moved to Austin, I
24 have done virtually all of the criminal forensic
25 psychiatry in Austin. That is to say, I evaluate people
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR., Official Court Reporter
5124

1 that are charged with crimes to determine whether they
2 are competent to stand trial, whether they were sane at
3 the time, things of that nature.
4 I also have some consultation in the
5 criminal area and various jurisdictions, and in fact, I
6 have done some evaluations for Kerr County, Fredricksburg
7 and other places around.
8 And I also consult in civil litigation
9 cases where there are issues of whether someone was --
10 had sustained a mental or emotional injury or brain
11 damage or something of that nature.
12 Q. Okay. Have you --
13 A. That is in addition -- excuse me -- to
14 my clinical practice of treating patients.
15 Q. In your clinical practice have you had
16 occasion to treat people who have been the victim of or
17 the witness to traumatic injuries or events?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you familiar with the body of
20 literature that deals with the responses of people who
21 are either victims of or witnesses to traumatic events?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Dr. Coons, have you been asked to come
24 and talk with the jury about, as an expert, on the issues
25 of memory?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is there a body of research and
3 accepted legal treatises and medical treatises that deal
4 with memory?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And how it relates in a forensic
7 field?
8 A. There's a significant body of research
9 and data available.
10 Q. Are you familiar with that research
11 and data?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And, I want to ask you as it relates
14 to traumatic events, are you aware of research that
15 relates to memory and the effects of memory?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, if you will, with respect to the
18 issues of memory, can you give the jury an overview as to
19 the aspects of memory, how memory is formed and how
20 memory is retained?
21 A. Yes. Memory -- people who write about
22 memory and who study it divide it into either three or
23 four different categories. I'm going to do the four
24 category description.
25 First of all, a person perceives
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1 something. They see it, they smell it, they hear it,
2 they touch it, and in some way they experience something.
3 That is the -- what we call perception.
4 Then, that having been experienced
5 that way it is then processed in the brain, in some way.
6 It is assessed, it fits in with other data that you have,
7 or it doesn't fit in, or there are feelings associated
8 with it, unhappy feelings, fear, pleasurable feelings,
9 anger, or neutral, like numbers, or something of that
10 nature. And then it is stored.
11 Now, there's a lot of research about
12 how memory is stored, but basically the brain works by
13 electrochemical means, and so, there is some
14 electrochemical phenomenon that is going on in the brain
15 in different areas. We know that certain types of data
16 are stored in different areas of the brain. So you have
17 the storage part.
18 Then you have retrieval of memory.
19 That is, someone asks you about something, you recall it
20 or you have a spontaneous recollection, or you see
21 something that reminds you of something, that is called
22 retrieval. So we have initial perception, processing,
23 storage and retrieval.
24 Q. Now, that is how the information is
25 brought into the brain and how it is stored; is that
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1 right?
2 A. Stored and then of course the issue of
3 retrieval.
4 Q. All right. Now, can you tell the
5 jury, is there a wide range of literature and accepted
6 material on how traumatic events affect memory?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Can you tell the jury about
9 some of the literature that you have reviewed and you
10 think is authoritative on memory?
11 A. Well, I would say there are two people
12 who have written extensively, actually, probably three,
13 about memory. One is a man named Bessel Van der Kolk.
14 He is an MD at Harvard University and he has done a huge
15 amount of research on data and trauma, and how trauma and
16 memories are stored in the brain, how there is an
17 interruption if something is overwhelmingly traumatic to
18 someone and they may not actually store it, or they may
19 not be able to retrieve it for some reason.
20 Elizabeth Loftis is a psychologist at
21 the University of Washington in Seattle, and she is a
22 psychologist who has done a lot of research on altered
23 memories, where people can have memories of things that
24 actually never occurred, or they will have a memory that
25 has been changed by some intervening event.
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1 There is also a man named Rogers, who
2 is a PHD, who has done a lot of research on this and he
3 talks about how memory is changeable. So a person can
4 have a different memory at different times about an event
5 that they have, to some degree, perceived.
6 Q. With respect to trauma and how it
7 affects a memory in a person's memory as they perceive a
8 trauma?
9 A. Well, if you think about anxiety or
10 traumatic anxiety. If you think about a little bit of
11 anxiety, a little bit of alertness can improve memory, a
12 little bit. That is, your attention is drawn to
13 something and that can cause you to focus on it, it has
14 an emotional impact to you, and your perception,
15 processing, storage and retrieval will be improved
16 because of that.
17 If you go beyond that kind of medium
18 level of anxiety associated with it, and you get into
19 trauma, we see the memory qualities and the intensity of
20 it drop off.
21 Until you get to extremely
22 overwhelming trauma to an individual where they may blot
23 it out, they may have an amnesia for what has happened, a
24 traumatic amnesia, that they simply do not store it
25 properly or it is cut off from the feelings associated
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1 with it or it is altered in some way.
2 Q. When a person experiences trauma of a
3 significant nature -- well, first, when we talk about
4 this kind of trauma, can you describe for the jury, you
5 know, in examples, what sort of trauma you mean and how
6 does that affect in terms of, what types of trauma can
7 cause someone to have memory lapses or memory problems?
8 A. It's fairly well known in abuse of
9 children, children will blot these things out and not
10 recall traumatic events. In adults, it would tend to be
11 something where your bodily integrity is threatened,
12 death of yourself, or some loved one, or someone
13 important to you. Annihilation type things would be an
14 example.
15 Q. Is that kind of trauma frequently
16 found in automobile accidents?
17 A. It certainly can be, I don't know
18 about -- it's not a high percentage. But, you know, it's
19 not -- you wouldn't expect it in a fender-bender, but in
20 a situation where family members might be killed, then it
21 would -- it can have partial or complete amnesia for
22 those events.
23 Q. Okay. And certainly, Doctor, would
24 you agree, that that type of trauma could be induced from
25 attacks or witnessing attacks either to yourself or a
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1 loved one?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When trauma confronts the memory and
4 the person's mind tries to recall events that have
5 trauma, or trauma-induced events, how does the mind work?
6 How does it react and how does the mind recall those
7 events?
8 A. I'm afraid I have no idea what you
9 have asked me.
10 Q. Well, let me ask you this: How does a
11 person who is the subject of a traumatic event, how does
12 that person recall things? For instance, are you
13 familiar with the term dissociation?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Okay. Can you describe dissociation
16 to the jury?
17 A. Dissociation is a psychological
18 defense mechanism. What it does is it causes a person
19 not to experience something that would be overwhelming to
20 them.
21 In other words, emotionally,
22 psychologically traumatic. They dissociate it. They do
23 not perceive it in terms of what's going on. They can
24 dissociate part of it, they can dissociate the feeling,
25 they can dissociate the experience of it, but it's a
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1 psychological defense mechanism.
2 It protects the person from
3 overwhelming psychological trauma.
4 Q. Okay. In what kind of -- based on
5 your training and experience -- in what kind of
6 situations can a person have those dissociation factors
7 in their memory?
8 A. Well, it would vary from person to
9 person. Whatever would be catastrophically overwhelming
10 to a person could potentially cause dissociation. Some
11 people would not dissociate, other people would be a lot
12 more vulnerable to it.
13 Q. Are you familiar with a phenomenon
14 that occurs in memory lapses and dissociation, where a
15 person may recall a traumatic event and that traumatic
16 event is recalled, in effect, like snapshots? Are you
17 familiar with that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you explain that to the jury?
20 A. Well, memory is not like a videotape.
21 We have discovered that with research. You don't -- if
22 you are thinking back to last Friday's football game or
23 the Super Bowl, you don't start at the kick off and go
24 through all the beer commercials and so forth to the end.
25 You have recollections perhaps of special plays that
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1 occurred or the touchdown or something, and you have
2 these snapshot-type vignettes, although they may be
3 action, they are shorter in duration than the whole game.
4 So, the mind doesn't work like a videotape.
5 Now, when people try to remember
6 something, they try to go back and piece it together as
7 if it were a videotape, but that is not the way the
8 memory works.
9 Q. So, am I correct, Dr. Coons, that a
10 person remembers, in effect, snapshots in different parts
11 of the traumatic event?
12 A. They can. I mean it depends. You
13 know, it depends on how traumatic it is. If it's lightly
14 traumatic, they may have a good recollection of it, if
15 it's extremely overwhelming, they may have no
16 recollection of it, or they may have periods that they --
17 or incidents that they recall of it. And those would
18 tend to be not the most traumatic portions.
19 Q. So what you mean by that is, the
20 portions that the person would recall are the -- those
21 parts that are, in effect, removed from the source of the
22 trauma?
23 A. Yes. If the trauma is such that it is
24 overwhelming to the person, the parts that will be
25 removed are the parts that would have overwhelmed them.
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1 Q. Okay. Can you give the jury examples
2 that illustrate that type of dissociation?
3 A. A traumatic event where a person's
4 children have -- are in the house and they wander around
5 through the crowd asking, where are my children, yet,
6 they know they are in the house, they have heard them
7 scream or something of that nature. Where a person is
8 overwhelmed by what's -- in other words, to actually
9 perceive what was going on would be psychologically
10 overwhelming to them so they dissociate it and they don't
11 recall it.
12 Q. Okay. Now, what phenomenon occurs
13 with the mind when it experiences those snapshots of
14 memory, but there are gaps, does the mind accept very
15 well gaps in memory?
16 A. Well, the mind tries to fill in the
17 gaps so that our experiences in life make sense. And
18 people tend to do that with things that are familiar to
19 them.
20 If you go to -- if you talk with
21 someone who is becoming senile and you ask them what they
22 had for breakfast, they may tell you bacon and eggs
23 because that is what they have had 80 percent of the time
24 in their life, but actually they may have had cereal or
25 something for breakfast that morning. They are
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1 confabulating. They are trying to fill in the gaps. The
2 term is confabulation. And you will see that both in
3 people with organic brain damage or people who have an
4 imperfect memory.
5 They will try to make it make sense.
6 They will try to fill it in with data. The data can
7 either be imagined, it can be from their life at another
8 time, it can be from suggestions made to them by other
9 people, "Did this happen? Well, I think maybe that is
10 what happened." And then, they take that in as a piece
11 of data now that is -- they assume is a part of their
12 memory.
13 Q. Am I correct, Dr. Coons, that what you
14 are trying to tell me is that the mind will struggle to
15 fill in those gaps?
16 A. Yes, it would.
17 Q. All right.
18 A. The mind does not like a vacuum, the
19 mind does not like for things not to make sense, so it
20 will try to fill in those gaps.
21 Q. Have you seen, in your clinical
22 experience, examples of that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Can you give the jury an
25 example of traumatic situations where the mind has tried
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1 to fill in gaps?
2 A. Well, in mistaken situations where --
3 I was involved in a case one time where there were five
4 witnesses to a shooting. And all five people, only one
5 person had an ax to grind, that was the person who shot
6 the other one. The others are just bystanders, and they
7 all had significantly different stories about what
8 happened.
9 And it was a situation in a
10 convenience store, where one man shot another. And the
11 witnesses had some people on this aisle, sometimes they
12 were on that aisle, or they had them standing this way or
13 this way, and they had them saying different things, some
14 of them, the witnesses, had them close together, others
15 had them far apart.
16 And they were -- all four of those
17 uninvolved witnesses, with no ax to grind, had
18 significantly, materially different stories about
19 something that happened in the morning in a convenience
20 store.
21 Q. And that was after they had been --
22 this was within close proximity to the event?
23 A. Oh, yes. I mean they -- the police
24 showed up right after this and split them all up and took
25 a statement from them and everybody's statement was
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1 different. They had been through a traumatic situation,
2 a shooting, and a man is dead in a convenience store, but
3 most of them thought it had to do with the robbery and so
4 forth. It actually wasn't, it was -- it wasn't a
5 robbery.
6 Q. And, is that frequently like that game
7 you will see frequently played at birthday parties or
8 something, where one person will tell a story and then
9 you whisper it to the next person and to the next person
10 and the next person and when that story has made the
11 complete circle, it's different from when it started?
12 A. Well, that's a game called Gossip.
13 And there is a significant difference in gossip. But
14 what has happened is these people have their own set of
15 ideas about what is going on here and then they try to
16 tailor -- their memory of the event is altered by their
17 own perceptions, their anxiety.
18 These people in the convenience store
19 thought they were in grave danger themselves with gunfire
20 going on, so it distorted their memories.
21 Q. How is a situation resolved? How do
22 you resolve a situation where you have different stories,
23 from dramatically -- from the same perspective in effect,
24 people sitting in the same room, how do you resolve that?
25 How do you explain that?
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1 A. How do you explain it?
2 Q. Well, how do you resolve the
3 differences between these? Do you chalk it up to
4 differences in perceptions or how do you resolve that?
5 A. Well, they can't all be right. As a
6 matter of fact, maybe nobody is right. Maybe they are
7 all incorrect because their stories are all different.
8 But you know, you may not be able to
9 find out exactly what went on from those witnesses. They
10 have a memory of it and whatever their memory is belongs
11 to them, correct or incorrect.
12 Q. Is it true, Doctor, that many times an
13 eyewitness or even a victim can be the worst person to
14 relate an event?
15 A. Yes. Particularly in traumatic
16 situations.
17 Q. That, in effect, would be the last
18 person you would want to try to explain what happened?
19 A. Well, I mean, you would want to hear
20 what that person said, but you have to take into
21 consideration that they -- that their memory may be
22 distorted of it, as it often is.
23 Q. Earlier you talked about the type of
24 things that can lead to the altering of memory when
25 memory is trying to fill in the gaps.
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. As you said, the mind kind of
3 wants to run like a videotape, but the mind doesn't run
4 like a videotape.
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Then you gave some factors that when
7 someone tries to fill in the gaps in their memory, what
8 can happen. Can you go back through those factors to the
9 jury? And in particular, I want you to go into
10 suggestibility.
11 A. Well, I mean memory is made up of
12 data. Where the data comes from, I mean, you could dream
13 it up yourself, somebody could suggest it to you, it
14 could be an actual memory, it can be a distortion,
15 distorted memory of what actually occurred.
16 But, we know, for example, there is a
17 concept of recovered memories, which are, in fact, not
18 correct, or the -- you can produce memories in people of
19 situations which absolutely did not occur.
20 That is Elizabeth Loftis' work at the
21 University of Washington. I mean she has demonstrated
22 over and over again, how you can suggest to someone, show
23 them a videotape of a situation with cars at an
24 intersection and ask them, "How far was the white car
25 from the stop sign when the red car went by?"
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1 And they will say, "Well, I think it
2 was about 100 feet. And it was not a white car at all
3 and there was not a stop sign."
4 Now, you ask them: "Well, what were
5 the colors of the car?"
6 "Red and white."
7 Now, "Was there a stop sign?"
8 "Yes."
9 Things of that nature. By suggestion
10 you can give people and they will include it in their
11 memory and they can pass a polygraph on it.
12 Q. Is it safe to say that a person who
13 has the gaps in the memory wants to rely on the
14 suggestion to try to fill in those gaps?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And, when a person --
17 A. Wait a minute. When you say they want
18 to rely on the suggestion. I can't say that they want to
19 rely on the suggestion. They want to have a memory of
20 it. The mind abhors a vacuum and it wants an answer, and
21 unfortunately, some of those answers come from incorrect
22 data.
23 Q. What is the best way, Dr. Coons, to
24 recall memory that has been -- I want to use the word
25 lapse, but dissociation -- what is the best way to
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1 retrieve that memory?
2 A. Well, if it, in fact, is there, you
3 allow the person to tell you. You don't ask them, well,
4 did this happen or did this happen or did this happen,
5 because, if they don't know, they may select one of those
6 things as an actual memory when it wasn't true.
7 Q. Now, when you say, you want to allow
8 them to recreate the memory. Is it also important what
9 type of atmosphere and surroundings that person is in
10 when you try to recreate the memory or help them recreate
11 the memory?
12 A. It is best when it is a supportive,
13 quiet, calm, not emotionally charged situation.
14 Q. Is it in fact counterproductive to try
15 to deal with gaps in memory, with suggestions in an
16 emotionally charged atmosphere?
17 A. Yes. You run the risk of suggesting
18 data that the person will then incorporate into their
19 memory. And, thereby get a distorted recollection.
20 Q. Can you give the jury an example of
21 that?
22 A. Yes. We have had situations where,
23 for example, there are some false memories that come from
24 what's called iatrogenic production of false memories,
25 where the doctor or the therapist will suggest things to
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1 a person which they then will take in and form as a
2 memory of abuse or something that actually didn't happen
3 but they now accept it as truth.
4 Q. Dr. Coons, let me work through with
5 you in a hypothetical situation. Assume with me, Doctor,
6 that you have a young mother, 26 years of age, that the
7 mother is very committed to her children, two young boys
8 as well as a toddler, I want to say, but really an
9 infant-aged child.
10 That that mother is not only deeply
11 committed, but spends a great deal of her time with those
12 boys.
13 And also assume that the relationship
14 between the mother and the boys is healthy, and that
15 there is no prior history of abuse, there is no prior
16 history of neglect.
17 And also assume with me, Doctor, that
18 the marriage is stable, that there are the typical rough
19 seas, for want of a better word that a marriage would
20 have, but by and large, a stable marriage, without
21 periods of separation or threat of divorce, that sort of
22 thing.
23 Also, assume with me, Doctor, that
24 that mother becomes the subject of a traumatic event, an
25 attack. And assume with me, Doctor, that that mother
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1 is -- witnesses, and is present when the oldest two boys
2 are killed, that she is the victim of a blunt trauma

3 attack to her arms, a stabbing attack to one arm, and
4 what has been described as a large slash wound to her
5 neck.
6 Now, with the hypothetical of a mother
7 in that situation, I want to ask you first, Doctor, in
8 dealing with the relationship to a mother and child, is
9 there any stronger bond that you are aware of?
10 A. That is generally the strongest, the
11 most intense, particularly with younger children that are
12 requiring a protection and nurturing and care by a
13 mother.
14 Q. Can you explain that bond to the jury?
15 I mean, it's fairly obvious, but what research and
16 psychological data shows that that bond is as strong and
17 as primary as it is?
18 A. Well, I don't know that anybody has
19 done a specific study that shows it. I think we know
20 from dealing with families and dealing with mothers and
21 children and family dynamics that that is an extremely
22 strong bond.
23 We also know from dealing with mothers
24 whose children are ill, for example, or in trouble in
25 some way, their emotional response is extremely strong.
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1 Q. And moving back to --
2 A. In general. I mean, there are some
3 mothers who don't have a close relationship with their
4 children, but that is the exception rather than the rule.
5 Q. Moving back to the hypothetical of a
6 mother as I have described, who is the subject of a
7 traumatic attack to herself and also the killing of her
8 children by violent injuries. Would it be consistent
9 with your training and experience and your knowledge,
10 with memory, and what you have testified to the jury,
11 that a mother in that situation would dissociate from
12 that trauma?
13 A. Well, it's certainly very possible.
14 That is the kind of overwhelming trauma that leads to
15 dissociation, not always, but can lead to dissociation.
16 Q. When you talk about an overwhelming
17 trauma, could an overwhelming trauma, described as I
18 have, dissociate a person even to the extent that their
19 first recollection of the traumatic event is after the
20 event, such that there is no recollection of the event
21 itself, the traumatic event?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And is that recognized as, I don't
24 want to use the word common, but is it recognized as a
25 response which has happened in the past and is not beyond
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1 the realm of possibility?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Okay. And are there -- in the course
4 of a traumatic event, are there certain things which can
5 bring a person -- and I don't want to use the word
6 trigger -- but bring a person into recollection? Do you
7 know what I am trying to get at?
8 A. Not yet.
9 Q. Okay. If a person is dissociated and
10 begins to have recollection of events, let me ask you,
11 Doctor, would it be consistent that contact with a child,
12 that strong bond, could be the stimulus to start
13 recollection and start the memory process back again?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you explain that to the jury?
16 A. Well, I mean nobody dissociates
17 forever. I mean, they don't just dissociate and that is
18 the end of mental functioning.
19 At some point, they start becoming
20 aware of what is going on again, after a dissociative
21 experience. And a child's appearance or touch or
22 whatever could be that stimulus.
23 Q. Okay. Would it be consistent with the
24 aspects of memory that you have testified to in
25 dissociation, that upon recalling in that hypothetical
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1 situation, the events as they occurred, that, in effect,
2 snapshots would be recalled by the person and that it
3 would be consistent to have lapses of memory?
4 A. If a person has been traumatically
5 overwhelmed to the point where they have had
6 dissociation, they may not go from a completely
7 dissociated state to a completely alert, aware,
8 attentive, normal state.
9 It may come back in, with vignettes or
10 occurrences. It may not just be like a marble rolling
11 off the table. You go from complete dissociation to
12 complete normality.
13 Q. Okay. So you would expect that there
14 would be periods of clarity and periods of vagueness, and
15 periods of clarity?
16 A. Let's say that that would not be
17 uncommon, that is certainly feasible.
18 Ordinarily a traumatic event, a person
19 doesn't go from dissociated to normal. They go from
20 dissociated to starting to get back with what is going
21 on.
22 Q. Okay. And would it be common that the
23 point that the person has the greatest amount of
24 dissociation would be the most intense part of the
25 traumatic event?
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1 A. Whatever to them would be the most
2 anguished, emotionally anguishing is the most likely to
3 be dissociated.
4 Q. Is it also common, Doctor, that in the
5 course of remembering and trying to fill in the gaps,
6 that a person would remember the most insignificant
7 matters while not remembering the most significant
8 matters?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you explain how that works?
11 A. Well, as a person moves from the
12 dissociation that is involved with an extremely traumatic
13 event, as they return to awareness, they are going to
14 be -- their attention and so forth is going to be spotty
15 and you would expect it to be with less emotionally
16 charged things, certainly not traumatically overwhelming.
17 Q. Let me ask you this, Doctor: If a
18 person has been in a traumatic event, would it be common
19 that that person would have a very sketchy memory, and
20 then would be able to remember later, the further you are
21 removed from the traumatic event, even specific details?
22 For instance, let me give you an hypothetical.
23 Let's assume that a person is in a
24 traumatic event, an attack, is then confronted with a
25 number of police officers questioning her immediately
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1 after the traumatic event, is questioned and asked about
2 (sic) paramedics about her wounds, and then begins to be
3 removed from the scene to be transported by ambulance to
4 a hospital.
5 Now, in that traumatic -- in that
6 hypothetical, would it be unusual for that victim of a
7 traumatic attack to begin remembering, the further
8 removed from the traumatic event, to be able to start
9 remembering things as small and detailed as how long in
10 the ambulance, what the paramedic may look like, what
11 hospital the paramedic's taking them to, if there is a
12 controversy as to which hospital to go to?
13 A. Yes. The further out from the --
14 necessity for dissociation, minding that dissociation is
15 a psychological, protective mechanism, then, the farther
16 out you are from that, the more normal your perceptions
17 and memory you would expect to be.
18 Q. Now, an example of a mother who has
19 been involved in an automobile accident with a child and
20 the child may be killed, are there points where the
21 mother -- would it be common -- let me ask you this:
22 Would it be common for the mother to completely block out
23 the traumatic events of the automobile accident, but
24 remember with detail the events that follow, such as what
25 medical treatment was rendered, how long it seemed to
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1 take to get to the hospital, very detailed events later?
2 A. Yes. If the event is traumatic to
3 her, you would expect her level of excitement to impair
4 her memory. As the traumatic effect on her diminishes,
5 you would expect her memory to be better.
6 Q. Going back to the first hypothetical
7 that I gave you, would it be unusual for -- when the mind
8 tries to explain and you try to explain when your first
9 memory and what brought it about, would it be unusual to
10 have that first memory be in the middle of an event,
11 because you have in effect, blocked out the traumatic
12 event, and would it be unusual to say: "My first
13 recollection is waking up."
14 Would it be unusual that the
15 recollection must be, "Well, I must have been asleep"?
16 A. Let's say it's reasonable to say that,
17 because a person -- a person who is dissociating doesn't
18 know they are dissociating. All they know is the first
19 thing I recall is such and such. And most of us would
20 associate that with waking up. But people who dissociate
21 do not know that they are dissociating.
22 Q. So, the mind in trying to struggle for
23 an explanation of why they don't remember a traumatic
24 event, the mind would -- it's not uncommon for a person
25 to say, "I woke up." Would you agree with that, Doctor?
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1 A. Well, I don't know how many I have
2 actually asked about that, but that certainly is the most
3 logical explanation for how a person would perceive that.
4 How else are they going to explain not
5 recalling the rest of it, other than to say, "Well, I
6 woke up," or, "I came to," since they don't know they are
7 dissociating.
8 Q. Okay. Now, I want to ask you a little
9 bit about medications and how medications can affect
10 recall and memory. Can you tell the jury how, if you
11 have a person who is dissociated, how would medications
12 affect the ability to begin recall and how would it
13 impair the ability to begin recall?
14 A. Well, you can have a beneficial effect
15 from sedating-type medications for recall because it will
16 decrease the anxiety, or you can have further distortions
17 because of the distorting effect of the medication, so
18 you can have either one.
19 Q. Okay. Are you familiar that
20 medication can be a disinhibitor?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In effect, certain medications can
23 cause a person to be more relaxed and more likely to
24 relate an event due to the medication?
25 A. Yes. And it's kind of like alcohol,
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1 it's a disinhibitor, and removes anxiety.
2 Q. Okay. I want to --
3 A. Well, now are you talking about pain
4 medications, generally, analgesics and sedative-type
5 medications?
6 Q. Right. For instance, Demerol, could
7 Demerol have those effects?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What about Phenergan?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Certainly, the type of medications
12 that are used in general anesthesia could have that
13 effect, isn't that true, Dr. Coons?
14 A. Well, it depends on whether you're
15 talking about a premedication and often people are given
16 something like Valium, or Demerol before they receive an
17 anesthetic to calm them down, relax the muscles, so they
18 use less anesthetic.
19 Then, when you are waking someone up,
20 if they have had an anesthetic, then they come out of
21 that as they blow off either the gases or they metabolize
22 if it's an intravenous anesthetic, they will metabolize
23 it.
24 Q. Okay. Let me talk to you in terms of
25 another hypothetical. Imagine that a victim of a violent
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1 attack has been operated on, been placed under general
2 anesthesia, been through surgery for some hour and
3 fifteen minutes, upon arrival to a recovery room,
4 approximately 6:00 A.M. receives 25 milligrams of
5 Demerol, the same dose of Phenergan, and then begins to
6 come out of the effects of those medications, awakens to
7 consciousness.
8 And then assume, Doctor, that the
9 person begins to come in contact with a steady stream of
10 family members, nurses, as well as police officers, who
11 begin to suggest and question as to the events
12 surrounding an attack.
13 Also assume, Doctor, that the victim
14 has dissociated significant portions of the traumatic
15 event. Could improper questioning and suggestions given
16 to that victim greatly affect their recall and their
17 memory?
18 A. Yes. And you would expect -- I would
19 expect them to be, for a person to be more vulnerable to
20 suggestions and questioning and provided data as a part
21 of the interrogation, as a result of the medications than
22 if they hadn't been on medication.
23 Q. All right. When a person is
24 confronted with questions like -- let's say you're trying
25 to identify an attacker and a person is confronted with
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1 questions, "Was the person this size," and brings in a
2 live person, "Was it my size, or was it this guy's size,"
3 and the person is given some choice, suggested a choice,
4 can that begin to lead to the type of suggestion which
5 would cause false memories?
6 A. Yes. They are asked to make a
7 decision about -- I mean if the person is asked what size
8 the individual was, that is an open-ended question.
9 If they say, "Was it this size or this
10 size," then they are placed in a position of making a
11 choice. And the mind has a tendency toward filling in
12 the gaps and would have a tendency toward making a
13 selection.
14 Q. So suggestibility would cause someone
15 to pick A or B?
16 A. Yes, it can, it doesn't have to, but
17 it can.
18 Q. Now when that begins to be recounted
19 over and over again, how does the retelling a story, even
20 if wrong, over and over again, begin to affect memory?
21 Does it get to where it's ingrained in the mind?
22 A. Yes. I think I am a whole lot better
23 basketball player now than I was when I was playing
24 basketball. You know, you recall things that strengthens
25 the memory over a period of time.
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1 Q. Now, after a person has continued to
2 recount stories and also been suggested versions over a
3 period of time.
4 A. I'm sorry?
5 Q. After you have been suggested -- for
6 instance, is it not unusual for people to say, "Well, you
7 have a stab wound on your arm and you were attacked.
8 How did you get that? And could it be this or could it
9 be that?" And when a person's memory -- people want to
10 try to help you out; isn't that right? Have you seen
11 that frequently?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. What they try to do is say, "Well,
14 could this have happened?" How does that affect
15 suggestibility with a person's mind? Does the mind latch
16 on to those suggestions?
17 A. It certainly can. That is a
18 phenomenon that we try to avoid, is contamination. You
19 let people tell you what happened rather than try to
20 offer them suggestions. That is, that's not the best way
21 to do it.
22 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this, are you
23 familiar with Dr. Phillip Resnick?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Is he an authoritative doctor and well
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1 recognized and respected?
2 A. Well, Phil Resnick is probably the
3 best teacher that I have ever experienced in terms of his
4 command, in terms of his ability to present material, the
5 clarity of his thought and so forth. He is one of the
6 most renowned forensic psychiatrists in the world,
7 certainly America.
8 Q. Okay. You use the term confabulation?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I'll ask you: When the mind tends
11 to fill in the gaps, and you term that confabulation, is
12 that unintentional?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That is the result of the mind -- the
15 old term is, the mind plays tricks on you?
16 A. Yes. Well, I mean, it's not so much
17 the mind plays tricks on you, it's that you are coming up
18 with answers to questions whether the data is there to
19 back it up or not.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. You ask somebody in a nursing home,
22 "What did do you today," and they will often just fill
23 you up with information which is wrong.
24 Q. Let me ask you in terms of
25 hypothetical situation. Imagine that in -- assume,
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1 Doctor, that you have a young lady 26 years of age, who
2 has been the witness and victim of a traumatic event, the
3 same lady, loss of children, very dear to her.
4 That that woman has been the subject
5 of dissociation as to the traumatic event, that the lady
6 has been repeatedly questioned over and over again as to
7 the event, and that some of that questioning has been the
8 form of suggestion as to the event.
9 And assume, Doctor, that the lady is
10 completely cooperative throughout the process with
11 authorities to try to aid the authorities in finding the
12 attacker or the perpetrator of the offense.
13 And assume for a minute, that the lady
14 comes into contact with a police detective of 20 years
15 experience, and that, in the course of a three-hour
16 questioning, she is, as many as 6 to 12 times suggested,
17 "You did this killing, you were the one that did this
18 act."
19 And assume that the person made
20 statements to the effect of, "Well, if I did it, I don't
21 remember it."
22 Would you in many respects expect the
23 person to make that type of statement?
24 A. I would expect someone who has
25 experienced dissociation to wonder what happened, to --
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1 if they experience dissociation, that there are things,
2 there are aspects of it that they don't recall.
3 And that I wouldn't find that unusual.
4 A person who is seeking to fill in the gaps might well
5 entertain what is being suggested by a veteran detective.
6 Q. Now, let me ask you this then: Does
7 the failure and assuming the hypothetical that this
8 cooperative person does not say, "But I didn't do it."
9 Would that surprise you, that the person would not make
10 that affirmative statement?
11 A. I guess, I mean, your hypothetical
12 doesn't involve what the person did say, but if the
13 person is saying, someone else did it, that is tantamount
14 to saying, I didn't do it. I mean, that --
15 Q. Well, if a person has consistently
16 said there was another attacker?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then that is the same statement of, "I
19 didn't do it."
20 A. Yes, to me it is.
21 Q. And you wouldn't expect a person who
22 was in the midst of saying there was another person that
23 did it, would be expected to say, there was another
24 person that did it and I didn't do it.
25 A. I don't think I have ever -- it's
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1 redundant.
2 Q. Now, let me ask you a couple of
3 questions first, Dr. Coons. You have testified in court
4 before in cases that Richard Mosty was involved in and
5 also cases that I was involved in; is that correct?
6 A. Yes -- well.
7 Q. And that has been for and against?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. You have testified some
10 years ago in a case, State of Texas versus Randy Wohls
11 (phonetic), where you were a State's witness and Mr.
12 Mosty represented the defendant; is that right?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And then you had testified in two
15 other cases that Richard and I were in, one in Gillespie
16 County and one in Kimble County; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you were paid for your testimony
19 here today; is that right?
20 A. I am going to send a bill, I hope I
21 will be paid.
22 Q. Yeah. What is your hourly rate?
23 A. $360.00 per hour.
24 Q. Okay. And, had you previously
25 consulted Richard Mosty sometime last month, about memory
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1 and those issues?
2 A. Yes. He called me and asked me if I
3 would talk with him and he came to Austin and we talked.
4 Q. Okay. And is it fair to say that over
5 the course of your career, that you have testified
6 numerous times for the State of Texas?
7 A. Yes, many times.
8 Q. Have you in the past been retained by
9 Dallas County to testify?
10 A. I have been -- yes, I have testified
11 in Dallas as a prosecution witness.
12 Q. For the district attorney's office?
13 A. Yes.
14
15 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: If I can
16 have one moment, your Honor?
17 THE COURT: All right.
18
19 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS:
20 Q. Doctor, let me ask you: For a mother
21 to kill her children, wouldn't it take an overwhelming
22 impetus for that to happen?
23
24 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Judge, I will
25 object to this going outside of the scope of the 705
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1 hearing.
2 THE COURT: Sustained.
3
4 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS:
5 Q. You're familiar with that bond, are
6 you not?
7
8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, Judge, do
9 we need to have another hearing?
10 THE COURT: I don't think we do. I
11 think that Mr. Douglass is perfectly capable of pursuing
12 this in question and answer form. Go ahead, Mr.
13 Douglass.
14 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Well, we may
15 need another 705 hearing is what I'm trying to say.
16 THE COURT: What was the last
17 question?
18 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Well, the purpose
19 of that was to get that all out in the first place.
20 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Well, I
21 thought I made that clear. Let me go into one other
22 thing.
23 THE COURT: Please go ahead. Well,
24 let me see both sides a minute up here.
25
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1 (Whereupon, a short
2 Discussion was held
3 Off the record, after
4 Which time the
5 Proceedings were resumed
6 As follows:)
7
8 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS:
9 Q. Doctor, the question I asked you was:
10 For a mother to kill children, would it not take an
11 overwhelming impetus to start that event into fruition?
12 A. Well, I would answer that by saying
13 that it would depend on the mother. Unfortunately, some
14 mothers are not as close to their children, some mothers
15 are psychotic or something of that nature.
16 But in general, and in particular, if
17 you stick with your hypothetical person in this case, I
18 would say that it would. It would take -- and that is an
19 extremely unusual event for a mother with a good
20 relationship with her children.
21 Q. Let's talk about psychosis for a
22 minute. A person who is psychotic is one who -- can a
23 person be psychotic and turn that on and off like a water
24 faucet?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. A person who is psychotic would show
2 signs of psychosis prior to a psychotic event; is that
3 right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it consistent --
6 A. When you say prior to a psychotic
7 event, I mean, generally, psychosis doesn't just turn off
8 and on. It comes on and it stays and you -- if it's of
9 any particular intensity, people are going to recognize
10 that the person is talking to God or hearing voices or
11 something of that nature.
12 Q. Is it consistent with psychosis if --
13 from a mother's standpoint, wouldn't there be signs of
14 failure to keep up, failure to keep up your personal
15 appearance, failure to keep up your home, failure to
16 carry on as you had in every day life?
17 A. If the psychosis is at all intense, it
18 will be apparent and it will adversely affect your
19 functioning.
20 Q. To the point that -- let me ask you
21 this other question, Doctor: When you see someone with a
22 psychosis, is it often that that psychosis carries on for
23 a number of hours after the psychotic event, such as that
24 person remains psychotic?
25 A. Well, I mean, there are only reasons
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1 that you would be -- one would be psychotic. You can
2 become psychotic from taking LSD or something of that
3 nature. You could be schizophrenic. You can have a
4 manic-depressive illness where you get manic and hear
5 voices and things like that. Those are not short term
6 things. They tend to last a while. So, you are not
7 talking about a matter of hours. So, I mean that would
8 be real unusual.
9
10 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Thank you,
11 Doctor. Pass the witness.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Shook.
13
14
15 CROSS EXAMINATION
16
17 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
18 Q. Dr. Coons, just a few questions. Did
19 you make any reports or notes in regards to this case?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. In fact, the first time you
22 were contacted was by Mr. Mosty in December; is that
23 right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Did he come and speak to you
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1 about what you have talked about in front of the jury,
2 memory and things like that?
3 A. Yes. I mean, I know that memory was a
4 large part of what we talked about.
5 Q. Okay. And then, when was the next
6 time you were contacted?
7 A. I next spoke with Mr. Mosty at about
8 9:00 o'clock last night, when I returned his phone call.
9 Q. All right. And, you have not
10 interviewed the defendant in this case, Darlie Routier?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Okay. You have not gone over or seen
13 her voluntary statement, have you?
14 A. I don't think so.
15 Q. Her husband's voluntary statement?
16 A. I don't think so.
17 Q. You haven't looked at any police
18 reports or summaries of evidence, anything like that,
19 have you?
20 A. I don't believe I have.
21 Q. You have looked at maybe a couple of
22 photographs, I believe?
23 A. Several. I think there were some
24 pictures of the home and some pictures of Mrs. Routier,
25 her arms and a cut on her neck.
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1 Q. Okay. You have not reviewed any
2 medical records, have you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Have you talked with anyone else in
5 regards to this case besides Mr. Mosty and Mr. Douglass?
6 A. Mr. Mulder.
7 Q. And Mr. Mulder. Okay. Anyone else?
8 A. And the investigator.
9 Q. Okay. Anyone else other than that?
10 A. I don't think so.
11 Q. Okay. Consulted with any other
12 doctors in regards to this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have not talked to Dr. Lisa Clayton
15 about this case at all, have you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. And, you have not interviewed
18 any family members of Darlie Routier, have you?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And you have not interviewed any of
21 her physicians that attended her the day of the attack,
22 have you?
23 A. That's right. I have not.
24 Q. None of the nurses?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. And none of the police officers?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Okay. You have not viewed, what we
4 call the Silly String videotape, the grave site videotape
5 that was made, have you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. You have just rendered some --
8 well, you have given us some information about memory and
9 what you know about memory and sometimes when someone
10 blocks certain aspects of memory out. Is that called
11 traumatic amnesia?
12 A. Well, that is not a diagnosis, but
13 that is a term that is used.
14 Q. What is that term used for exactly?
15 A. Well, it's not an exact term. I mean,
16 the way I would describe it is that the person undergoes
17 a psychological trauma and has -- and not does not recall
18 then what happened for some period of time.
19 Now, you can have a traumatic amnesia
20 for physical reasons if you have a concussion or
21 something of that nature.
22 Q. And you are not telling this jury that
23 in your opinion Darlie Routier was suffering from any
24 type of traumatic amnesia or anything like that?
25 A. I don't know her.
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1 Q. Okay. You all have a term you use
2 called malingering; is that right?
3 A. There is a term called malingering.
4 Q. What -- could you explain to the jury
5 what malingering is?
6 A. Basically, claiming that you have
7 something that you don't.
8 Q. Okay. And, are there certain types of
9 cases in which you are trained as a psychiatrist to be
10 very careful that a person is malingering?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. What types of cases are those?
13 A. Oh, if a person has -- would have some
14 advantage from lying about having some kind of a problem,
15 that is basically lying about it, for money or some
16 advantage.
17 Q. Okay. Money is one of them. Also,
18 obviously, if a person is accused of a crime, that is
19 another situation where you often have to be very careful
20 of malingering; is that right?
21 A. Yes, that is true. I mean, if there
22 is any advantage to be gotten from something, someone --
23 you always want to be careful that that is not what is
24 going on.
25 Q. Okay. And, when a person is accused
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1 of the crime of murder, capital murder, do you not have
2 to be even extra careful in those situations, that a
3 person might be malingering or lying, specifically
4 saying, I have amnesia. I can't remember what happened.
5 A. Yes, you would want to be careful
6 about that.
7 Q. Okay. If there was evidence that the
8 crime scene may have been staged in some ways, would that
9 make you even more cautious that this person may be
10 malingering?
11 A. Sure. You would take that into
12 consideration.
13 Q. Okay. If the offense was planned, if
14 there was evidence that the offense may have been planned
15 sometime, would that also make you more cautious about
16 malingering?
17 A. I don't think it would make me more
18 cautious. I mean, you would have -- the cautious factor
19 would be the same. Certainly, you would take that into
20 consideration.
21 Q. Okay. And, the type of memory
22 blockage that you have talked about, a person that
23 forgets a traumatic event, is that some type of mental
24 disorder that you all have described in the DSM-IV?
25 A. Well, it can amount to -- it can fit
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1 under a diagnostic category, but it is a psychological
2 defense mechanism that occurs. So, it can occur in the
3 absence of a diagnosable mental illness, if you will.
4 Q. Okay. So, the person can have that
5 memory blockage and not -- well, usually what are the
6 situations which would be the medical disorder?
7 A. Well, it would probably always amount
8 to -- I'm just thinking -- at least something like an
9 adjustment disorder with mixed emotional features or
10 something of that nature. I mean, it would probably
11 qualify for a diagnosis.
12 Q. Okay. Does it fit in, I think you
13 call it post-traumatic stress syndrome?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. But I mean you can have, dissociation
17 could be a part of a post-traumatic stress disorder.
18 It's seen in people who are highly traumatized. They may
19 dissociate part of what has happened to them.
20 Q. Now, let's talk a little bit about
21 medications, we're talking about Demerol. Demerol is a
22 painkiller; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. If a person is given a very
25 small doses of Demerol -- well, first of all, let me ask
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1 you this: Is Demerol like truth serum in any way?
2 A. Well, there is no truth serum, all it
3 is, is a sedating substance. Alcohol works, "in vino
4 veritas," is the Latin for it which means, "In wine, the
5 truth." People get drunk and tell things that they
6 probably shouldn't be.
7 And, then, you could use Sodium Amytal
8 or various barbiturates, you can use tranquilizers,
9 things like Demerol are sedating and that would work.
10 So there is nothing magic about it,
11 there is no one truth serum.
12 Q. Right.
13 A. All it does is it gets you drunk, it
14 gets you intoxicated so that you are less anxious, and
15 can tell things that you want to tell, basically is what
16 it does.
17 Q. If you don't want to tell things,
18 like, maybe not wanting to confess to murdering your
19 children, a small amount of Demerol is not going to make
20 you do that to detectives, is it?
21 A. Not going to make you do what?
22 Q. Make you confess all of sudden.
23 A. No, I mean it's just like, you know, a
24 couple of beers or something like that.
25 Q. Okay. You wouldn't expect, if a
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1 person, let's say, is cold-blooded enough to murder their
2 own children, and they don't want to be punished for
3 that, they want to get away with it, and they are given
4 25 milligrams of Demerol, then the detectives come in the
5 room, they are not going to jump up and say, "You got the
6 goods on me. I did it." You wouldn't expect that, would
7 you?
8 A. Well, you would expect them to be more
9 likely to tell under those circumstances where their
10 defenses are lowered. But, simply, I mean if that is all
11 you are talking about, in an adult 25 milligrams of
12 Demerol on its own, you wouldn't expect to have that much
13 effect.
14 Q. Okay. That is a pretty light dosage,
15 25 milligrams, in an adult?
16 A. It depends on what it's associated
17 with. If it's, you know, 25 milligrams of Phenergan
18 along with it and a person who's also been premedicated
19 perhaps with Valium for their surgery, or who is coming
20 out from under an anesthesia, you add all those things
21 together.
22 Q. Now, you talk about people try to fill
23 in the gaps and they are open to suggestion. Is that
24 what we're talking about?
25 Someone says, "Well, did it happen
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1 this way?"
2 And then they go, "Yeah. I think it
3 happened that way."
4 A. I don't know about open to suggestion.
5 They are vulnerable to suggestion because there are gaps
6 in their memory and so people tend to try to fill in the
7 gaps.
8 Q. In Mr. Douglass's hypothetical, he
9 gave you the mother that witnessed a traumatic event. A
10 central part of his hypothetical was people making
11 suggestions about how this event actually took place.
12 If that were removed from the
13 hypothetical, if people didn't suggest in any way how the
14 event took place, would that change your opinion in any
15 way?
16 A. Well, I mean, if no suggestion was
17 made, then no suggestion was made.
18 Q. Right.
19 A. If you ask a question like, "Well, did
20 he run off," well, then that suggests that maybe he ran
21 off rather than walked off or crawled off or stayed or
22 whatever. That is what I am saying, rather than saying,
23 "Tell me what happened. Tell me everything that you can
24 recall happened."
25 Q. And if a detective, let's say, went to
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1 this woman in the hypothetical and said, "Tell me what
2 happened."
3 And she said, "I was asleep. I felt
4 some pressure on me and there was a man standing over me
5 and we had a struggle on the couch and then he ran off."
6 That wouldn't be a suggestion on his
7 part in any way, would it?
8 A. No, that would not.
9 Q. And if, let's say, nurses later on
10 during the day just said, "What happened?"
11 And she said, "A man was standing over
12 me with a knife and tried to stab me, and he ran off and
13 I chased after him."
14 That wouldn't be a suggestion on their
15 part, would it?
16 A. Not if that is the only thing you are
17 considering, what that one individual said, no, they have
18 just asked, tell me what happened.
19 Q. Okay. If, let's say, in the situation
20 where the woman who wakes up after going into some
21 surgery and there are detectives there, that they want to
22 question her about the event.
23 And there is a nurse there watching
24 over her who is very observant, and says that the
25 detectives didn't suggest any answers in any way. They
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1 just methodically went step by step and asked her what
2 happened, didn't suggest answers. That wouldn't be a
3 situation where she is getting her memories from another
4 person, would it?
5 A. Only to the extent of -- if the answer
6 is not suggested, you can still encourage someone to form
7 an answer by saying, "And then what did he do," you see,
8 that causes the person to have some need to come up with
9 an answer for that. And that is leading to some extent.
10 Q. Okay. But that is not true in every
11 case, is it?
12 A. What isn't true?
13 Q. That, if someone just asked, "What
14 happened next," that they are going to try to think up
15 something?
16 A. Well, then what did he do was my idea.
17 Q. Okay. Then what did he do?
18 A. Then there is an assumption that he
19 did something else that she noticed that she ought to
20 come up with and there is an inclination on the people
21 who don't -- for people who don't recall to come up with
22 an answer.
23 Q. You talked about them blocking out the
24 most stressful part of the event and then remembering
25 small, trivial details or details that aren't as
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1 important?
2 A. Ordinarily, you would expect a person
3 to block out the most traumatic thing to them. The other
4 things that they could remember would be less traumatic
5 to them.
6 Q. Okay. In the situation you were
7 given, an attack on your children, obviously, and on
8 yourself, would be a very traumatic event?
9 A. I would anticipate that it would.
10 Q. Would it also be a very traumatic
11 event if you were watching your children lying there
12 bleeding to death and dying?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. You actually might have gone
15 over there, touched them, watched their eyes roll up,
16 watched them quit breathing. That would be a very
17 traumatic event, would it not?
18 A. I would anticipate that it would.
19 Q. If you observed your husband breathing
20 into the mouth of one of the children and blood came out
21 of holes created by stab wounds in the chest, that would
22 be an extremely traumatic event, would it not?
23 A. I would expect it would be quite
24 traumatic.
25 Q. Would those be the type of events that
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1 you would block out also?
2 A. Maybe.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. You know, it depends on whether your
5 memory of it is spotty or not.
6 Q. Okay. And, many times in these
7 situations you have talked about, a person will block out
8 an event for several hours at a time; is that right? For
9 instance, the automobile, where maybe a mother has her
10 children killed in an automobile accident, she may not
11 remember the driving before the accident and to several
12 hours later?
13 A. Ordinarily that is not the way it
14 works. Usually, the traumatic dissociation or traumatic
15 amnesia will occur for a fairly short period of time, and
16 then the person will begin being more attentive to what
17 is going on.
18 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this: If
19 there is a traumatic event and they block out that
20 portion, and then they're taken to the hospital and they
21 go on, that should end the amnesia there, that is the one
22 portion they block out, that very traumatic part; is that
23 right?
24 A. Not necessarily. I mean, if they are
25 dealing with the idea that their children have died or
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1 something other, then the trauma can continue. I mean, I
2 would expect the most traumatic situation to be immediate
3 and -- but it is certainly traumatic to think that your

4 children have just died, so you may be psychologically
5 dissociated to some extent because of that.
6 Q. Okay. Would you believe it -- would
7 it be consistent then that if a person has blocked out
8 the traumatic event and they are taken to the hospital,
9 and if they made rather -- well, if they made rather
10 inculpatory statements, let's say to the nurses about
11 what happened and were able to describe the attack
12 without any suggestions to them, and later on when you
13 ask them about that, they also had no memory of talking
14 to these nurses; would that be inconsistent with this
15 type of situation?
16 A. Well, the fact that a person did
17 recall some aspects of what happened would indicate that
18 they have a memory of it. And I mean, that it wasn't
19 forever erased from their memory, that there is some
20 memory of it that might be able to come out under certain
21 circumstances.
22 That is the way I would answer that.
23 Q. The -- you said a mother's bond with
24 their child is extremely strong. That's common sense, is
25 it not?
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1 A. Well, most mothers' bonds with their
2 children are extremely strong. I think almost anybody
3 knows that.
4 Q. Okay. And it's a well known fact and
5 common sense will tell you that a mother will fight to
6 the death to try to save her children, will they not?
7 A. Some will, some won't.
8 Q. If she has a strong bond with her
9 children, they certainly will, won't they?
10 A. A strong positive bond and then given
11 the personality of the mother. You have some very timid
12 people who will run from confrontation and so their
13 timidity overwhelms their bond with their child, for
14 example, but some will fight to the death.
15 Q. Let's say they are not a timid person?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And they have a strong,
18 positive bond with their child. They will fight to the
19 death, will they not?
20 A. Well, they will fight hard.
21 Q. And, if you were interviewing someone
22 who was accused of murder and claiming to have traumatic
23 amnesia, would it be important to look at maybe some of
24 the physical evidence as maybe, for instance, a
25 discrepancy between how the children were killed and the
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1 wounds they received and then the actual wounds that the
2 mother received?
3 A. I'm not sure what you have asked me
4 there.
5 Q. Okay. If I could make -- for
6 instance, would it be important to you that, if you have
7 a situation where a mother has survived and her two
8 children have been murdered, she is the suspect, and the
9 medical doctors who treated her, and it's their opinion
10 that the wounds she received are superficial?
11 A. Would it be important for what
12 purpose?
13 Q. In your assessment as to whether this
14 person would be malingering or lying to you about --
15 A. If that were the question I was asked,
16 yes, it would.
17 Q. Okay. Would that -- just one second.
18 And, is it always important to gather most facts about a
19 case when you are rendering an opinion from the most
20 sources?
21 A. Well, you ought to have an adequate
22 amount of data to answer the questions that you are
23 asked.
24 Q. Okay.
25
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1 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Okay. That's all
2 I have then, Judge.
3 THE COURT: Anything?
4 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Yes.
5 THE COURT: Will this be lengthy? If
6 it's lengthy, I'm going to excuse the jury.
7 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Well, it
8 could be lengthy.
9 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
10 Let's take a 10 minute break, please.
11
12 (Whereupon, a short
13 Recess was taken,
14 After which time,
15 The proceedings were
16 Resumed on the record,
17 In the presence and
18 hearing of the defendant
19 but outside the presence
20 of the jury, as follows:)
21
22
23 THE COURT: Let the record reflect,
24 that these proceedings are being held outside the
25 presence of the jury. All parties in the trial are
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1 present.
2 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Your Honor, at this
3 time, it is our understanding that both sides are going
4 to rest and close.
5 We do at this point in time move for a
6 judgment of acquittal, or a motion for a directed
7 verdict, and we would reurge our previous motion.
8 THE COURT: All right. Motion denied.
9 Thank you. All right. Bring the jury back in, please.
10
11 (Whereupon, the jury
12 Was returned to the
13 Courtroom, and the
14 Proceedings were
15 Resumed on the record,
16 In open court, in the
17 Presence and hearing
18 Of the defendant,
19 As follows:)
20
21 THE COURT: All right. Let the record
22 reflect that all parties in the trial are present and the
23 jury is seated.
24 Mr. Mulder.
25 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, your Honor,
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1 and ladies and gentlemen of the jury, at this time the
2 defense will rest.
3 MR. GREG DAVIS: Your Honor, the State
4 will close.
5 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: We close.
6 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and
7 gentlemen, both sides have rested and closed. That's all
8 the testimony you are going to be hearing in this case.
9 I have to get together a Charge of the
10 Court and we will go over that now. And then you are
11 going to be recessed until tomorrow morning at 9:00
12 o'clock. You will hear arguments and then you will
13 retire and consider the case and reach a verdict.
14 So, the same instructions as always:
15 Do no investigation on your own. You will decide this
16 case on the testimony you hear, and the evidence you
17 receive in this courtroom.
18 Do not talk about this case among
19 yourselves yet, because it isn't finally over. If you
20 see or hear anything about it on the radio, TV or the
21 newspapers, please ignore it. In fact, it would be a
22 good idea if you didn't read any papers or listen to the
23 radio or watch any TV news broadcasts while this is going
24 on.
25 Wear your juror badges at all times
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1 when you are in the courthouse area, and we will see you
2 down here tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock.
3 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Your Honor, may
4 we talk about one thing first?
5 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
6
7 (Whereupon, a short
8 Discussion was held
9 Off the record, after
10 Which time the
11 Proceedings were resumed
12 As follows:)
13
14 THE COURT: All right. So we will see
15 everybody down here tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock. If
16 everyone will remain seated please until the jury clears
17 the courthouse.
18
19 (Whereupon, the jury
20 Was excused from the
21 Courtroom, and the
22 Proceedings were held
23 In the presence of the
24 Defendant, with her
25 Attorney, but outside
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1 The presence of jury
2 As follows:)
3
4 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Davis,
5 Mulder, all you fellows. Doug, come over here.
6 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir.
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir.
8 THE COURT: Okay. The charge is --
9 MR. JOHN HAGLER: I want to look at it
10 one more time. I think we're in pretty good shape.
11 THE COURT: Who is going to argue? We
12 have an hour and a half to the side, who is going to
13 argue?
14 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Richard is going
15 to open. I will close. We will take 45 minutes a side.
16 THE COURT: 45 minutes each. Well,
17 the State opens.
18 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. Mr. Shook
19 will open.
20 THE COURT: Mr. Shook.
21 MR. GREG DAVIS: Well, 10 minutes a
22 side and then summarize.
23 THE COURT: All right. You want 10 or
24 15 minutes?
25 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: To open with.
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1 THE COURT: Well, just --
2 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Well, I don't know
3 yet, Judge. Can I tell you in the morning?
4 THE COURT: That's fine. So you are
5 going first?
6 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Yes.
7 THE COURT: 45 minutes. If you don't
8 use it all up, you get what's left of the 45 minutes.
9 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir.
10 THE COURT: You will close, Mr. Davis?
11 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. I will.
12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
13 We will see everyone here in the
14 morning.
15
16 (Whereupon, the jury was
17 thereby excused for the
18 day, to return on the
19 next day, January 31, 1997,
20 at 9:00 A.M.)
21
22
23 (These proceedings are continued to
24 the next volume in this cause.)
25
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5185

1 CERTIFICATION PAGE
2 THE STATE OF TEXAS )
3 THE COUNTY OF DALLAS )
4 I, Sandra M. Halsey, was the Official Court
5 Reporter of Criminal District Court Number 3, of Dallas
6 County, Texas, do hereby certify that I reported in
7 Stenograph notes the foregoing proceedings, and that they
8 have been edited by me, or under my direction and the
9 foregoing transcript contains a full, true, complete and
10 accurate transcript of the proceedings held in this
11 matter, to the best of my knowledge.
12 I further certify that this transcript of the
13 proceedings truly and correctly reflects the exhibits, if
14 any, offered by the respective parties.
15 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO, this _____ day of
16 ___________, 1997.
17 __________________________________
18 Sandra M. Day Halsey, CSR
19 Official Court Reporter
20 363RD Judicial District Court
21 Dallas County, Texas
22 Phone, (214) 653-5893
23
24 Cert. No. 308
25 Exp 12-31-98
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5186

1 STATE OF TEXAS )
2 COUNTY OF DALLAS)
3
4 JUDGES CERTIFICATE
5
6
7
8 The above and foregoing transcript, as certified
9 by the Official Court Reporter, having been presented to
10 me, has been examined and is approved as a true and
11 correct transcript of the proceedings had in the
12 foregoing styled cause, and aforementioned cause number
13 of this case.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20 __________________________________
21 MARK TOLLE, JUDGE
22 Criminal District Court Number 3
23 Dallas County, Texas
24
25
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