Volume 38

1
2 IN THE CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT NO. 3
3 DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
4
5
6
7 THE STATE OF TEXAS } NO. F-96-39973-J
8 VS: } & A-96-253
9 DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER } Kerr Co. Number
10
11
12
13
14 REPORTERS RECORD
15 JURY TRIAL
16 VOL. 38 OF 53 VOLS.
17 January 21, 1997
18 Tuesday
19
20
21
22
23
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25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3084

1 C A P T I O N
2
3
4 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Tuesday, the 21st day of
5 January, 1997, in the Criminal District Court Number 3 of
6 Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on for
7 a jury trial before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the
8 Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas,
9 with a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open
10 court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse,
11 Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as
12 follows:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3085

1
2 A P P E A R A N C E S
3
4
5 HON. JOHN VANCE
6 Criminal District Attorney
7 Dallas County, Texas
8
9 BY: HON. GREG DAVIS
10 Assistant District Attorney
11 Dallas County, Texas
12
13 AND:
14 HON. TOBY SHOOK
15 Assistant District Attorney
16 Dallas County, Texas
17
18 AND:
19 HON. SHERRI WALLACE
20 Assistant District Attorney
21 Dallas County, Texas
22
23 APPEARING FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3086

1 ADDITIONAL APPEARANCES:
2
3 HON. DOUGLAS D. MULDER
4 Attorney at Law
5 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
6 717 N. Harwood
7 Dallas, TX 75201
8
9 AND: HON. CURTIS GLOVER
10 Attorney at Law
11 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
12 717 N. Harwood

13 Dallas, TX 75201
14
15 AND: HON. RICHARD C. MOSTY
16 Attorney at Law
17 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
18 820 Main Street, Suite 200
19 Kerrville, TX 78028
20
21 AND: HON. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.
22 Attorney at Law
23 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
24 820 Main Street, Suite 200
25 Kerrville, TX 78028
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3087

1
2 AND: HON. JOHN HAGLER
3 Attorney at Law

4 901 Main Street, Suite 3601
5 Dallas, TX 75202
6 ALL ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE
7 DEFENDANT: DARLIE ROUTIER
8 MR. HAGLER HANDLING THE APPEAL
9 AND:
10 HON. ALBERT D. PATILLO, III
11 Attorney at Law
12 820 Main Street, Suite 211
13 Kerrville, TX 78028
14 APPEARING FOR: Witness-
15 Detective Jimmy Patterson

16 only on one date in trial
17 AND:
18 HON. STEVEN J. PICKELL
19 Attorney at Law
20 620 Earl Garrett Street
21 Kerrville, TX 78028
22 APPEARING FOR: Witness

23 Officer Chris Frosch
24 only on one date in trial
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3088

1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 January 21st, 1997
4 Tuesday
5 1:00 p.m.
6
7 (Whereupon, the following
8 proceedings were held in

9 open court, in the presence
10 and hearing of the

11 defendant, being
12 represented by her attorneys
13 and the representatives of
14 the State of Texas, but
15 outside the presence of the
16 jury, as follows:)
17
18

19 THE COURT: Today is Tuesday, January
20 21st, 1997. We had a recess this morning so another
21 judge could use the courtroom, and now we're beginning at
22 1:10 P.M.
23 Who is the first witness? Is it Judy
24 Floyd and Bob Poole?
25 We're starting at 1:15
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3089

1 P.M.
2 Who will be your first witness, Mr.
3 Davis?
4 MR. GREG DAVIS: Bob Poole.
5 THE COURT: All right. Everybody
6 ready?
7 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. The State
8 is ready.
9 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir.
10 Defense is ready.
11 THE COURT: All right. Bring them in.
12
13 (Whereupon, the jury

14 Was returned to the
15 Courtroom, and the
16 Proceedings were

17 Resumed on the record,
18 In open court, in the
19 Presence and hearing
20 Of the defendant,
21 As follows:)
22

23 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, if
24 we can have quiet in the courtroom, please.
25 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3090

1 Let the record reflect that all
2 parties in the trial are present and the jury is seated.
3 Mr. Poole, if you will raise your right hand, please.
4
5 (Whereupon, the witness

6 Was duly sworn by the
7 Court, to speak the truth,
8 The whole truth and
9 Nothing but the truth,
10 After which, the

11 Proceedings were
12 Resumed as follows:)
13
14 THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or
15 affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be
16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
17 help you God?
18 THE WITNESS: I do, sir.
19 THE COURT: All right. You have
20 testified before. You are under the Rule of Evidence.
21 Do you understand what that means?
22 THE WITNESS: I do, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right. If you will
24 please state your name and spell your last name for the
25 record.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3091

1 THE WITNESS: Robert A. Poole,
2 P-O-O-L-E.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Davis.
4 MR. GREG DAVIS: It will be Ms.
5 Wallace.
6 THE COURT: Ms. Wallace, excuse me.
7 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Yes, sir.

8 THE COURT: All right. You may
9 proceed.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3092

1 Whereupon,
2
3 ROBERT A. POOLE,
4
5 Was called as a witness, for the State of Texas, having
6 been first duly sworn by the Court to speak the truth,

7 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in
8 open court, as follows:
9
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
13 Q. How are you employed, Mr. Poole?

14 A. I'm employed by the Institute of
15 Forensic Sciences in Dallas, also known as the Dallas
16 County Crime Laboratory.

17 Q. What I think the jurors have heard it
18 referred to is SWIFS?
19 A. Yes, ma'am. That's correct.
20 Q. You work in the crime lab portion of
21 that building?
22 A. I do, ma'am, yes.
23 Q. What job title do you have?
24 A. I am a firearm and tool mark examiner.
25 Q. What is your educational background
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3093

1 and experience that qualifies you to hold that position?
2 A. I have a Masters Degree from Boston
3 University, but my technical training came as a result of
4 my active duty service in the U.S. Army.
5 In 1975, when I was on active duty I
6 was selected for and subsequently went to the U.S. Army
7 Crime Laboratory System, where I was enrolled in a
8 two-year course in firearm and tool mark identification.
9 I completed that formal training in
10 1977. And I was then, at that time, certified by the
11 Department of the Army as a firearm and tool mark
12 examiner.
13 And I did that work almost exclusively
14 until I retired from active duty in 1992 to accept the
15 position that was offered to me in Dallas.
16 Q. And so, you have been doing this work
17 for about 20 years; is that about right?
18 A. Yes, ma'am, a little over 20 years.
19 Q. Have you been published and have you
20 taught as well on this subject?
21 A. I have.
22 Q. Okay. If you would, tell the members
23 of the jury what a tool mark is.
24 A. A tool mark is really, in a forensic
25 sense, that is in doing the kind of work that I do, is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3094

1 essentially two objects that come into contact with one
2 another, and the harder of the two has the opportunity or
3 the ability to leave its characteristics on the softer of
4 the two.
5 And tool marks can include a variety
6 of things and substances. For example, common tools that
7 you and I know, might include screwdrivers, bolt cutters,
8 wire cutters, pliers, those kinds of things are
9 traditional tools that are used in burglary
10 investigations and those are the kinds of things that I
11 would commonly come in contact with, and do tool mark
12 analysis.
13 But a tool can be essentially anything
14 that is harder than the object on which it is acting, and
15 then leaves its marks on the softer of the two.
16 Q. About how many tool marks have you
17 examined, Mr. Poole?
18 A. Over the course of my career, I have
19 examined thousands of tools marks.
20 Q. Let me ask you if you were asked to do
21 that sort of testing in this type of case?
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. I am going to show you what's been
24 admitted into evidence as State's Exhibit 1-A. Outside
25 the jury's presence, did I ask you to look at that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3095

1 picture?
2 A. Yes, ma'am.
3 Q. Could you step down, please. Were you
4 given a portion of Devon Routier's chest plate to test?
5 A. Yes, ma'am, I was.
6 Q. On State's Exhibit 1-A, would you show
7 the jury on this photograph what area you were given?
8 A. The medical examiner's office
9 submitted a portion of the chest plate that would have
10 included these two major cut areas, and it was perhaps as
11 much as three inches around those two marks, the chest
12 plate itself, that was sent over to the laboratory.
13 Q. So you were actually given the bone
14 and the cartilage of that plate?

15 A. Yes, ma'am.
16 Q. Okay. Once you got that, what -- how
17 do you go about testing markings on that chest plate?
18 A. Well, the initial problem that I am
19 faced with is being able to get to the markings, if, in
20 fact, there are any there.
21 So, what I have to do is, I have to
22 cut a plug out, actually cut out the section of rib, the
23 section of cartilage that has the stab wound in it, in
24 this case.
25 Once I have cut the plug, I am then
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3096

1 interested in looking at and seeing if I can detect
2 anything in the way of tool marks on the actual rib bone,
3 on the cartilage that makes up the rib bone itself. And
4 so, after having cut the plug, I then expose the portion
5 of the -- of the rib where the instrument would have gone
6 through. And I look at it microscopically to see if
7 there is anything there.
8 Q. Did you find anything in the two holes
9 in Devon Routier's chest plate?
10 A. I found significant tool marks in the
11 lower of the two. The upper one, though it is damaged

12 and the damage is obvious, there were no tool markings
13 there that I could use to identify the instrument that
14 might have done it.
15 Q. Mr. Poole, when you realized in the
16 lower hole that you had sufficient tool marks to do some
17 analysis, were you also given some weapons, some tools?
18 A. I was.

19 Q. Let me show you what has been admitted
20 into evidence as the Guzman -- the knives found around

21 the Guzman home, Nos. 21 and 22. And ask you if you
22 received those?
23 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
24 Q. Did you examine those knives to
25 determine if they made the wound in Devon Routier?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3097

1 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
2 Q. And what was your conclusion?
3 A. That these knives can be excluded,
4 that is, that these knives did not make at least one of
5 the cuts in the chest plate of the young -- of Devon.

6 Q. So those knives did not cause that
7 hole. Is that what you are telling us?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Now State's Exhibit 67. Were you also
10 asked to examine the weapon found in the Routier kitchen?
11 A. I was.
12 Q. And, did you have an opportunity to
13 compare that as well to the breast plate, the hole in
14 Devon Routier?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. What was your conclusion with that?
17 A. My conclusion was that the
18 characteristics of the damage that was present on the
19 cartilage, was similar to the test marks that I received
20 in making stabs with this knife.
21 However, I was not able to
22 conclusively determine that this was the knife that was
23 used. But my opinion would be, that a knife with similar
24 characteristics, specifically, a knife that would have
25 perhaps smooth areas in between some serrations. That is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3098

1 the kind of instrument that was -- that would have been
2 used, in my opinion.
3 Q. So, what you are saying is that these
4 knives found in the Guzman home didn't do it, and that
5 weapon No. 67 is the same class characteristics?
6
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
8 leading.
9
10 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
11 Q. Is that right?
12
13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
14 leading.
15 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.
16 Let's phrase our questions right.
17
18 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
19 Q. Is that what you are saying?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. All right.
22
23 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Pass the witness.
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3099

1 CROSS EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
4 Q. Just a thing or two, Mr. Poole. You
5 examined, I take it, both of those wounds, did you?
6 A. I did, sir, yes.
7 Q. Would we be safe in assuming that in
8 the course of the thoroughness of your examination, you
9 discussed those wounds with the autopsying physician?
10 A. I did not, sir.
11 Q. You did not?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Okay. I was going to ask you then if

14 you had an opinion, within your field of expertise, as to
15 whether or not the child was standing, sitting or lying
16 down, at the time that those injuries were inflicted?
17
18 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Your Honor, I'll
19 object to that, he said that he didn't have the
20 discussion.
21 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll let him
22 answer if he knows.
23 THE WITNESS: I have no opinion as to
24 the position of the victim at the time of the stabbing.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3100

1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
2 Q. Okay. Just out of curiosity, when
3 were you asked to do this analysis?
4 A. My involvement was perhaps a week or
5 maybe a week and a half before Christmas.
6 Q. In December?
7 A. Yes, sir, in December.
8 Q. Okay. And, if I understood you
9 correctly, you were saying basically, that the lower
10 wound, you can't tell whether it was made by that
11 serrated-bladed knife or not?
12 A. My answer is with regard to this knife
13 specifically, and the question being, Is this the knife
14 that did it? My answer would be I don't know.
15 Q. So you can't tell us anything really?
16 A. I can't tell -- well, I know that it
17 is a knife with characteristics like this knife, but I

18 cannot determine whether or not it is this knife or not.
19 Q. Could you tell whether or not both

20 punctures, both injuries, both stab wounds were made by
21 the same instrument?
22 A. No, sir, because the upper wound
23 didn't have any of those characteristics that I could use
24 to discriminate the characteristics of the instrument
25 that was used.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3101

1 Q. Okay. I take it then, your answer is
2 that the stab wounds as you examined them are consistent
3 with being inflicted by separate, different weapons?
4 A. No, sir. I'm not saying separate or
5 different. The one has no characteristics that I could
6 use to make any kind of judgment, other than it's there.

7 And the second one did have an abundance of markings that
8 allowed me to identify the class or the style of the
9 instrument that was used. But I cannot determine whether
10 or not this was the specific instrument used.
11 Q. And you can't tell us whether these
12 knives or knives like these could have been used to make
13 the upper injury?
14 A. That's correct, sir. I don't have any
15 idea about the instrument that was used to make that
16 upper one.
17 Q. So, you are saying that these knives
18 then could have been used to make the higher of the two
19 injuries?
20 A. Those knives and any other instrument
21 capable of penetrating.
22 Q. You know, I notice with interest
23 that -- see if you notice this: You notice that these
24 wounds are made at different angles?
25 A. Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3102

1 Q. What does that -- does that tell you
2 that the person inflicting the wound to make this one,
3 and then if you were going to stab there you would have

4 to do that, so, to stab like that with a knife held like
5 that, you would change your position or the body would

6 change its position or you could change the manner in
7 which you were holding the knife?
8 A. Sir, there are a tremendous number of
9 variables. First of all, in stabbing situations very
10 seldom, it has been my experience, does the victim remain
11 stationary.
12 Q. Well, that depends on the victim and
13 it depends on the person inflicting the injuries; is that
14 not correct?
15 A. There are a tremendous number of areas
16 that enter into the characteristics.
17 Q. I mean, you would expect different

18 injuries, perhaps if you and I were involved, you with
19 that knife, and me with this knife, than you would if
20 either of us were involved with a child?

21 A. Well, I think the circumstances would
22 dictate an awful lot of that, sir. Whether or not we

23 were both conscious, whether or not we would -- I mean,
24 there's just a tremendous amount of variables that enter
25 into what occurs during that kind of an incident.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3103

1 Q. I guess there isn't anything in your
2 vast range of experience that would permit you to
3 speculate as to how many assailants were involved in
4 these injuries?
5 A. No, sir, I wouldn't care to speculate.
6 Q. Did you examine the injuries to the
7 other child?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. You weren't asked to examine injuries
10 to the other child?
11 A. That's correct, sir.
12 Q. Okay. Who called you about this?
13 A. I was first brought into this aspect
14 by Mr. Linch, one of our trace evidence analysts.
15 Q. Okay.
16
17 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I believe that's
18 all. Thank you, Mr. Poole.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3104

1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
4 Q. Mr. Poole, that knife, is it still
5 there in front of you?
6 A. It's here on the side.
7 Q. State's Exhibit No. 67. Could that
8 knife have caused both wounds to Devon Routier?
9 A. It could have.
10
11 THE COURT: Anything else? All right.
12 Thank you, sir. You are excused subject to recall. You
13 may return to Dallas.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 THE COURT: All right. The next
16 witness.
17 MR. GREG DAVIS: The State will call
18 Judy Floyd.
19 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Floyd, if
20 you will have a seat here, please.
21 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this
22 witness has already been sworn outside your presence.
23 Speak loudly so that the gentleman and
24 lady down there in the corner can hear you.
25 Okay?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3105

1 THE WITNESS: All right.
2 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead,
3 please.
4 MR. GREG DAVIS: Thank you.
5
6
7 Whereupon,
8
9 JUDITH FLOYD,
10
11 was called as a witness, for the State of Texas, having
12 been first duly sworn by the Court to speak the truth,
13 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in
14 open court, as follows:
15
16
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18
19 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
20 Q. Ma'am, would you please tell us your
21 full name.
22 A. Judith Irene Floyd.
23 Q. Ms. Floyd, how are you employed?
24 A. I am the forensic laboratory
25 supervisor at Gene Screen in Dallas.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3106

1 Q. Okay. What is Gene Screen?
2 A. Gene Screen is a DNA identity testing
3 laboratory. We do identity testing in three areas: One
4 would be genetic analysis; the other would be paternity
5 testing; and the third one would be forensic analysis.

6 Q. How long have you been with Gene
7 Screen?
8 A. Seven and a half years.
9 Q. All right. Would you tell us briefly
10 about your educational and professional background that
11 entitles you to hold your present position?
12 A. I have a degree from the University of
13 Texas at Dallas in Molecular Biology. I have three years
14 experience prior to Gene Screen in a genetics testing
15 laboratory doing cancer research.
16 And that particular occupation
17 actually required that I perform more DNA techniques than
18 I do perform at Gene Screen.
19 Since joining Gene Screen, I have also
20 attended four separate lab and lecture courses for
21 instruction on RFLP analysis and PCR methods, which would
22 be DQ-Alpha, polymarker, D1S80 and STRs, which are all
23 techniques that we've employed in crime scene
24 investigation.
25 Q. Okay. What are your present duties at
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3107

1 Gene Screen?
2 A. My present duties at Gene Screen are
3 teaching other forensic analysts that come into the

4 laboratory, and I have also been to South America on
5 three occasions teaching technicians at that particular
6 locale how to do these techniques also.
7 I perform case work myself, and I am
8 also supervisor of the laboratory, which means that I am
9 responsible for the overall running of the laboratory

10 itself, responsible for testimony, and I am involved in
11 the incorporation of new DNA testing methods at Gene
12 Screen.
13 Q. Okay. How long have you actually been
14 performing DNA analysis?
15 A. A little over 10 years.
16 Q. All right. Can you give us an idea of
17 the number of cases in which you have actually done this
18 DNA analysis?
19 A. That would be approximately 600 cases
20 and that would involve a little over 4,000 samples.
21 Q. All right. And, over the last 10
22 years, have you had occasion to testify as an expert in
23 court before?
24 A. Yes, I have.
25 Q. And, in how many cases have you
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3108

1 testified previously?
2 A. As far as cases, I'm not sure, but as
3 far as times in court, that would be about 70. And the
4 cases themselves would be less than 70, simply because

5 some of these may have been in pre-trial hearings and
6 then the actual testimony at the trial itself.
7 Q. Okay. In what type of cases is DNA
8 analysis used?
9 A. DNA analysis is used in sexual assault
10 cases, homicide, it may be involved in a hit and run
11 case, assault, missing persons, incest cases.
12 In civil cases it may be incorporated
13 in a paternity suit, identity testing, involving,
14 discerning whether or not the cells from the slide from
15 which a diagnosis has been rendered to the blood of a
16 patient, just to make sure that the cells on the slide do
17 indeed belong to that patient.
18 Insurance companies are also
19 incorporating more and more DNA testing in their suits.
20 Q. All right. I want to go -- let's just
21 go to square one here. And explain to me what DNA is.
22 A. DNA is a substance that is found
23 within the cells of your body. This particular substance
24 is our genetic code or the information contained within
25 our cells that makes us the unique individuals that we
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3109

1 are.
2 The coding, or the message on that DNA
3 is what causes you to have blue eyes or brown eyes, it
4 causes you to be short, curly hair, your skin color, it
5 determines whether you have type A blood or type O blood.
6 All of our physical characteristics
7 that we can see and those that we cannot see is
8 determined by the message that is incorporated on our DNA
9 strands.
10 Many of you have heard of DNA referred
11 to as chromosomes. That is a form of DNA. And we
12 actually look at the chromosomes within the cells, look
13 at specific sites to obtain information in order to
14 determine whether or not a person could be a donor of a
15 biological specimen of some sort. And the reason we can
16 do that, is because the DNA in each of your cells, within
17 the individual, is the same.
18 For instance, the DNA in your skin

19 cell, is the very same as the DNA in your blood cells.
20 The DNA in your hair is the same. But your DNA is
21 different from the individual sitting next to you.
22 That is why we can incorporate this
23 type of testing in forensic analysis and match known
24 blood specimens of a victim or a suspect to specimens
25 that may have been found at the crime scene.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3110

1 Q. Okay. For instance, if you had a
2 sample of my blood, from my blood, could you get my
3 genetic code, my DNA code?
4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. And my code would be different
6 than yours and different than anyone else in the
7 courtroom or in the world, correct?
8 A. That is true, unless you had an
9 identical twin.
10 Q. All right. So, would it be fair to
11 call this, in a way, like a genetic fingerprint then that
12 is unique to each individual?
13 A. That would be fair.
14 Q. You've mentioned when you talked about
15 Gene Screen you went through a lot of letters. You told
16 us about RFLP, PCR, and DQ-Alpha and D1S80. And I want
17 to go through those in just a little bit more detail.
18 Are those types of DNA tests that are available to be
19 run?
20 A. Yes, they are. There are actually two
21 general categories. And then subtesting categories, you
22 might say, under the heading of PCR.
23 Q. Okay. What would be kind of the three
24 major categories then if we look at it?
25 A. We look at actually two major
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3111

1 categories. One is RFLP analysis and that is what you
2 may have referred to as DNA fingerprinting.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. The PCR analysis is another type of
5 testing and it actually has some subgroups which we will
6 talk about also.
7 Q. Okay. All right. So, we have got
8 these two worlds. We have got the RFLP world and then we
9 have got this PCR world, right?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. All right. Just briefly, if you are
12 going to do an RFLP test, a DNA test using that method,
13 what exactly are you looking at on the genetic code?
14 A. If you are going to performed an RFLP
15 analysis, you are looking at different length of
16 fragments that are generated by cutting your DNA with,
17 what we call, molecular scissors, they are enzymes.
18 And they read the DNA code and they
19 cut at specific sites according to what they are reading
20 along the code. And every individual has specific links
21 that are generated by applying this enzyme to their DNA.
22 And it is those links, that we then examine and compare
23 to some other substance.
24 Q. Would it be kind of like -- a DNA
25 strand being kind of like a ladder here in the courtroom,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3112

1 and you go in with these molecular cutters and on mine,
2 for instance, the first cutter may cut the first rung of
3 that ladder out, the second cutter may do another rung

4 and on and on and on, and you can identify those rungs as
5 you look at it; is that right?
6 A. That's correct. You can compare it in
7 that manner or even to a strand of beads. And it may cut
8 six links out of one strand for one person and three
9 links out of another person.
10 Q. All right. So, that would be in the
11 RFLP world. Now, the PCR world, that is different, isn't
12 it?
13 A. That is a different technique.
14 Q. Okay. Just within the general
15 overview of PCR, how do you do that, as opposed to going
16 in there and actually cutting different strands along
17 there? What do you do with the PCR?
18 A. With PCR you already typically have
19 very small strands of DNA. You may be working with
20 degraded DNA, or DNA that has been broken down into very
21 small pieces through exposure to bacteria, to sunlight or
22 other factors such as moisture and humidity.
23 You actually amplify the DNA at a
24 certain site on the DNA. You want to look at a type or
25 a -- some sort of information at a specific site on a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
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1 DNA, but you may not have enough. So you amplify it and
2 it's copied, many, many times, millions of times. It's
3 very similar to placing a sheet of paper on a copying
4 machine and setting the cycle to 100 copies.
5 All of your copies are going to be
6 exact duplicates of your original, and that is
7 essentially what we do with the PCR method. We're
8 actually copying a particular area on the DNA, obtaining
9 many, many copies and then we're looking at this
10 amplified DNA as to what type an individual may have.
11 Q. Would one of the advantages of PCR be
12 that you need less of a sample in order to do your
13 testing?
14 A. That is definitely an advantage.

15 Q. Okay. So you actually need more
16 material, more DNA material to do the RFLP, right?
17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, at Gene Screen, as you look at
19 the PCR, do you basically, or do you primarily do PCR
20 testing at Gene Screen or do you do both?

21 A. I do both, but primarily PCR analysis.
22 Q. All right. Well, let's talk about the
23 PCR then. Within the PCR family, do you have, what I am
24 going to call, DQ-Alpha testing, and then do you have
25 this D1S80 testing over here within the PCR family?
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1 A. Yes, that is two of the four methods
2 that we now incorporate.
3 Q. Okay. Is there another one called,
4 STR, for instance?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Let's just stick with D1S80 and
7 DQ-Alpha. What is going to be the basic difference
8 between those two PCR tests?
9 A. The basic difference between those two
10 tests, is that with DQ-Alpha analysis, your final product
11 is going to be a strip with blue dots. And those blue

12 dots will be positive for whatever DQ-Alpha type may be
13 present in a sample.
14 If you are performing D1S80 analysis,
15 you're going to see the result in the form of discrete
16 bands on a film.
17 And the final product is different as
18 well as the methodology that you are incorporating. For
19 instance, with DQ-Alpha you're actually looking at the
20 difference in sequence, or a difference in coding along
21 the DNA.

22 With the D1S80 method, you are looking
23 at various lengths of DNA because those are due to tandem
24 repeats or stuttering the D1S80 sequence. And that quite
25 often varies from individual to individual.
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3115

1 Q. Okay. Are there some cases that you
2 get, where you decide the DQ-Alpha testing would be best?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are there other cases that you might

5 get in, where you may think that this other type of PCR
6 testing, this D1S80 might be better?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Might there also be cases that you
9 look at and you might decide that RFLP might be best for
10 that job?
11 A. If I have a choice, and plenty of DNA
12 so that I have the luxury of making that choice, yes.

13 Q. All right. In this particular case,
14 Ms. Floyd, were several items submitted to you for DNA
15 analysis?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And, did you receive items from

18 Charles Linch and Carolyn Van Winkle, of the Institute of
19 Forensic Sciences in Dallas?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Okay. Did you receive items from any
22 other individuals?
23 A. Only Kathryn Long, Charlie Linch and
24 Carolyn Van Winkle.
25 Q. And when you received those items, did
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1 you sit down and try to decide what kind of testing that
2 you wanted to do on those items?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In fact, did you and I, and you have a
5 boss, Dr. Robert Giles there at Gene Screen?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did we all sit down and try to decide
8 what kind of testing you thought would be best for these
9 items?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. All right. What kind of testing did
12 you finally decide on for these items?
13 A. With this particular case we decided
14 D1S80 would probably be the preferred testing, using PCR
15 analysis.
16 Q. Okay. Why did you finally choose to
17 do D1S80 testing?
18 A. Well, we knew that these stains were
19 most likely going to yield a possible mixture of three
20 related individuals. If they are related, that means
21 they are going to be sharing some banding pattern or some
22 alleles because each child would inherit half of their

23 DNA from their mother, and the other half from their
24 father. So there would be some commonality there that
25 might complicate the testing method.
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1 If you have mixtures present in a
2 sample, that is DNA that is donated through blood from
3 more than one individual, the strip method or DQ-Alpha is
4 very hard to read.
5 If you have only one individual
6 donating blood, it is fine. But if you have a mixture,

7 it's too difficult to discern what came from where. If
8 you use D1S80 you have discrete bands generated by each

9 individual and you can best determine whether or not that
10 particular person's DNA might be present in that
11 specimen.
12 Q. Okay. Would a good analogy be that
13 you have got three fingerprints from individuals within a
14 family and their fingerprints are somewhat similar
15 because they are all in the same family.
16 Is that what the alleles are,
17 basically?
18 A. Similar.
19 Q. Okay. And when you talk about a

20 mixture, it may not be a good analogy, but I think of
21 where you have one fingerprint and then over that you

22 might have another fingerprint that might obscure part of
23 the first fingerprint. Is that what a mixture is
24 sometimes in DNA terms?
25 A. It could be or you could share some
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1 points on one fingerprint, on your fingerprint that you
2 would find also in the other one.
3 Q. And this D1S80, in essence, would it
4 allow you to sort of separate these two fingerprints and
5 look at them and determine whose fingerprint is where?
6 A. Yes. And you could determine also
7 which points were actually shared between the
8 individuals.
9 Q. When you receive samples out there at
10 Gene Screen for testing, just walk us through the
11 procedures that you use. What is the first thing that
12 you do when you receive the samples, in this case, for
13 instance?
14 A. The first thing that we do, is to
15 establish the chain of custody, document how we receive
16 the samples, from whom, what the samples were, assign a
17 case number, and for each piece of evidence that is

18 applicable to this case, it also receives it's own
19 individual accession number.
20 At that point, I will photograph the
21 specimens before I begin work, and determine what type of
22 testing method might be the best or what type of testing
23 method may be the only type that I can use on that
24 particular case.
25 It depends on the specimens, how much
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3119

1 there is, what condition they are in and how fast someone
2 would like to have some results.
3 Q. What procedures do you have out at

4 Gene Screen to prevent cross-contamination, you know,
5 something happening where two samples get intermingled
6 before you do the testing? What sort of safeguards do
7 you have?
8 A. It's policy to open only one item of

9 evidence at a time. Never do I open two at a time. Open
10 only one, take a picture, seal it back up. Open another
11 one, take a picture, seal it back up.
12 After that, I then begin work on the
13 specimen, and again, open only one at a time, cut it out,
14 begin processing it. I open only one tube at a time if I
15 have several tubes on a rack. I wear gloves. My
16 utensils such as my forceps and my scissors are always,
17 always cleaned between specimens.
18 We use aerosol resistant tips so that
19 whenever I am pipetting from one solution into another,
20 there is no carry-over by aerosol contamination.
21 Q. Okay. How long does the D1S80 test
22 take to run?
23 A. Approximately three days.
24 Q. All right. So from the time that you
25 are actually beginning that test to the finish when you
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3120

1 get results, it's about three days; is that right?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. That test is actually run out at Gene
4 Screen, correct?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Okay. Let's say you have got a

7 sample, you have tested it using D1S80, what do you
8 actually do to get a result that you can then report back
9 to us? How do you do that?
10 A. What I do first is to remove a
11 portion, for instance, of a blood stain, a very small
12 amount from the blood stain. Remove the DNA from the
13 white cells that are contained within that blood. I have
14 a solution of DNA, I amplify it, copy it, as I mentioned
15 a few minutes ago, obtain a tube of amplified DNA. I

16 then load this amplified DNA on acrylamide gel. And I
17 need this acrylamide gel to enable me to visualize the
18 different lengths of DNA that I have in that particular
19 sample.
20 I do a silver stain which then will
21 expose those particular DNA bands to me, and a film is a
22 permanent record of this.
23 At that point, we then analyze the

24 results of the unknown, or the evidence specimen and
25 compare that to known specimens, and determine whether we
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1 have an inclusion, or a match, or an exclusion.
2 If you have an exclusion then you know
3 that a particular individual could not have donated or
4 could not have been the donor of whatever DNA or
5 biological specimen you are looking at on the evidence.
6 Q. Okay. So on the known sample, for

7 instance, where you know the contributor of that DNA,
8 will that have a set length to it already?
9 A. Yes. If you -- we always receive
10 blood standards and that is what we call our known

11 sample, because we know the donor of that particular
12 item. And we have, what we call, our reference, or our
13 standard bands derived from that person's blood.
14 Q. All right. So, when you are doing
15 this comparison, do you actually have this standard band
16 from the known, and then you can actually visualize -- do
17 you visually see whether or not you have a got a match
18 between the known and the unknown?
19 A. Yes. You visualize it, and also
20 you're comparing those bands to a ladder. When I say
21 ladder, I mean the ladder that we use on the gel contains
22 all of the allele sizes, or all of the band lengths that
23 you are going to find generated from any sample.
24 Then if it lines up with band number
25 29, you know you have a 29. If it lines up with band
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1 number 14, you know you have a 14.
2 Q. And how long have you actually been
3 doing this, where you have actually looked at these bands
4 and determined whether or not you have got a match where
5 you can say, it's included, or you say, no, I don't have
6 a match, I can exclude this as being the same? How long?
7 A. For D1S80 testing for approximately
8 three years, but it is very similar to comparing the
9 results for RFLP analysis, and that I have been
10 performing for seven and a half years.
11 Q. Ms. Floyd, in this case, did you
12 receive from the folks over there at SWIFS, blood samples
13 identified as having come from Darlie Routier, Darin
14 Routier, Damon Routier and Devon Routier?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Would those then be your known
17 samples where you know the length that you are looking

18 for for each one of those individuals?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Let me begin with items from a
21 T-shirt. Did you receive several blood samples

22 identified as having come from a T-shirt worn by the
23 defendant in this case?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Okay. And did those samples come to
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3123

1 you from Carolyn Van Winkle and Charles Linch of SWIFS?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you also receive several blood
4 samples identified as having come from inside 5801 Eagle
5 Drive in Rowlett?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did those items come from Charles
8 Linch also?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you also receive several blood
11 samples identified as coming from a head hair, a sock, a
12 comforter, Reebok tennis shoes and a knife?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Who did you receive those
15 samples from?
16 A. Charles Linch.
17 Q. Okay. All right. Now when those

18 items come over, does Charles Linch or Carolyn Van
19 Winkle, do they actually have their SWIFS number assigned
20 to those items, when they come over there to you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Just for reference sake,
23 starting with the comforter, did that come over as SWIFS
24 item No. 18?
25 A. Yes, it did.
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3124

1 Q. Okay. The Reebok tennis shoes, did
2 those come over as SWIFS items No. 1O3?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The knife, did that come over as SWIFS
5 item No. 2?
6 A. Now, the knife itself, I did not
7 receive.
8 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. The samples off of
9 the knife?
10 A. The samples from the knife. Those
11 particular stains I have listed as No. 2.
12 Q. Right. That is SWIFS item No. 2. And
13 finally, the stains removed and sent to you from a sock,
14 did those show to be SWIFS item No. 27?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. If we could, let's start with those
17 items. If we could, we have the comforter that came over
18 as SWIFS item No. 18. Can you tell us what the results
19 of your DNA analysis was for the comforter items?
20 A. Yes. The comforter, I had four
21 stains, three of those stains typed as Devon, the fourth
22 stain did not yield a result.
23 Q. Okay. So you had four, three of them
24 came back as matching Devon Routier, correct?
25 A. Correct.
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3125

1 Q. The fourth one, you didn't get a
2 result. Is that uncommon that sometimes you get a stain
3 and you can't get a result?
4 A. No, it's not uncommon and using the
5 D1S80 technique, if you retype the specimen, it's very
6 likely you could get a result.
7 Q. All right. So the three of them that
8 you got a result, they all came back to Devon, correct?
9 A. Correct.

10 Q. The Reeboks, SWIFS item No. 1O3, could
11 you give us the results of your analysis, please?
12 A. I worked with two stains from the
13 Reeboks. Both of those came back as matching Darlie.
14 Q. Okay. Two stains both matched Darlie
15 Routier, correct?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. The samples off the knife, SWIFS item
18 No. 2, what were your results there?
19 A. I had four stains from the knife. Two
20 of those stains matched Darlie Routier, one matched Damon
21 Routier, and the fourth one contained a combination of
22 Darlie and Damon Routier.
23 Q. Okay. So two of them matched Darlie
24 Routier, one of them came back to Damon Routier and the
25 other one is a mixture; is that right?
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3126

1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And, is a mixture something that you
3 see also, from time to time? It's kind of like the two
4 fingerprints, one over another?
5
6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
7 leading.
8 THE COURT: I'll sustain it. And
9 let's just phrase our questions properly.
10 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir, I'll do
11 that.
12
13 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
14 Q. Is one of them a mixture then?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And finally, the sock, SWIFS item No.
17 27, what were your results?
18 A. I had six stains from the sock. One
19 stain typed as Damon Routier -- I'm sorry. Two of those
20 stains typed as Damon Routier.
21 Two typed as Devon Routier -- three
22 typed as Devon Routier. So two typed as Damon, three

23 typed as Devon Routier. The very last stain did not
24 type.
25 Q. Okay. What does that mean for the
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3127

1 last sample? What does that mean?
2 A. I would just simply issue no result,
3 indicating that the first attempt to obtain results from
4 that one were unsuccessful.
5 Q. So five of the six you got results?
6 A. Right. That's correct.
7 Q. And on the sock, again, did you find
8 any samples that matched the blood of Darlie Routier?

9 A. Originally, when I had the sock, I
10 typed the toe, which gave a very faint typing matching
11 the D1S80 type of Darlie Routier.

12 Q. Okay. Do you have an opinion as a DNA
13 analyst as to why that sample came back to Darlie Routier
14 from the toe area? Do you have an idea of what you were
15 actually seeing there?
16 A. When I was asked to test the sock,

17 there was an interest in who might have been the wearer
18 of the sock. I tested the toe area, the heel area and
19 the band of the sock. Which typically, is a site where
20 you might obtain cells from the person having worn a

21 sock. And that is the reason that I chose that area, and
22 it did not appear to have blood stains in that particular
23 area.
24 Since I did obtain a faint typing, and
25 quite often, if you're going to get the person who might
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3128

1 have worn the sock, it's going to be fairly faint. And
2 that is a possibility.
3 Q. Okay. Well, if -- as I wear
4 something, do I actually lose skin cells as I wear
5 something?
6 A. Certainly. Especially to clothing
7 that may be closer to your body. For instance, around
8 the collar of your shirt, the cuff of your sleeve, the
9 binding area on your sock.
10 Q. Okay. From the socks I am wearing
11 today, would you expect that at the end of the day that

12 you would actually be able to find my skin cells on this
13 sock?
14 A. Yes, I would. The more stress you're
15 under, the more cells I'm likely to find.
16 Q. You would probably see a bunch of them
17 today then, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would the same be true if I put this
20 sock over my hand and wore it around all day and I am
21 stressed? Would you expect to see my skin cells from my
22 hand on that sock?
23 A. That is a possibility, yes.
24 Q. And from those skin cells left on my
25 sock either from wearing it on the foot or on the hand,
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3129

1 could you then extract DNA from those skin cells?
2 A. Yes, if there was sufficient there to
3 give a typing, I could, definitely.
4 Q. Okay. From the items that you tested
5 that we have gone over: From the comforter, the Reeboks,
6 the knife and the sock, from the samples where you got
7 results that you could report out, were there any
8 unidentified samples?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Ms. Floyd, if you would look at
11 State's Exhibit No. 122. And before you testified today,
12 did I have you look over samples shown on this board, and
13 did you initial the samples that you did the testing on?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Okay. Would those include the two
16 samples listed as 105 here?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would they also include the samples
19 that are marked as 110 and 111?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you do any testing on any other
22 items shown here on State's Exhibit 122?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Is there an additional one here from a
25 vacuum?
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3130

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Also, the hallway area.
4 Q. All right. We see 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 along
5 the wall of the family room. You also tested those; is
6 that right?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And are the three on the hallway, what
9 I am going to call the entry hallway, that you did
10 testing on also?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The sample that you tested off of the
13 vacuum cleaner, what was the result of that, that
14 analysis?
15 A. The spot of blood I removed from the
16 vacuum cleaner matched Darlie Routier.
17 Q. Did you actually take that sample
18 yourself?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Where on the vacuum cleaner did you
21 take that sample?
22 A. It was taken on the plastic casing
23 just above the left wheel.
24 Q. The samples that I just showed you on
25 State's Exhibit 122, besides initialing for the sample
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3131

1 itself, are the results shown on that board, are they
2 true and correct?
3 And do they correspond with the
4 results that you found when you sampled and you tested
5 those samples?
6 A. Yes, they do.
7 Q. Ms. Floyd, again, now looking at
8 State's Exhibits 120 and 121, before you testified today,
9 have you also gone through all the samples shown in these
10 two photographs and have you identified the ones that you
11 actually tested?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have you now initialed all the samples
14 that you tested as shown on State's Exhibit 120 and 121?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Are the results shown on these boards
17 accurate? Do they correspond to the findings after your
18 DNA analysis of the samples?
19 A. Yes, they do.
20 Q. With regards to the samples from
21 inside the house that you received to test, with regards
22 to all of the samples where you got a result, were there
23 any unidentified samples after your testing?
24 A. None of the blood stains, no.
25 Q. Okay. You were able to identify the
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3132

1 contributor on all of those?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How about with the samples that you
4 tested from the T-shirt? With regards to samples where
5 you got results, were there any unidentified samples?
6 A. No.

7 Q. Able to identify a contributor on all
8 of those; is that right?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. D1S80, I don't know how to word this,
11 but just how exact a test is that?
12 A. When performed properly, it's 100
13 percent reliable.
14 Q. All right. You were talking about
15 being able to exclude people or include people. What's
16 the power of that test, you know, in percentages, if you
17 can? How would you express that?
18 A. In the general population, it's

19 approximately 96 to 98 percent power of exclusion or
20 power of discrimination.
21 Q. Okay. What do you mean by power of
22 discrimination?
23 A. The ability to discern between one
24 individual to another by using this particular
25 methodology.
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3133

1 Q. Okay. So, what, a percentage of
2 accuracy of 96 to 98 percent? Is that what you're
3 talking about?

4 A. That's correct. Whenever you're using
5 the general public as a whole and this is a little bit

6 different in that we were trying to determine from a --
7 you might say, a group of three people if there was

8 something different other than the bands that were
9 generated by their bloods.
10 Q. Okay. What would you say the degree
11 of accuracy would be in this particular case with three
12 family members as possible contributors?
13 A. I would say that the power of
14 exclusion -- if you ran a sample and there were bands
15 that you could align, for instance, with Darlie Routier's
16 blood, but not with Devon Routier's, that means that
17 Devon is 100 percent excluded as being a donor of that
18 particular blood specimen. But Darlie would not be and
19 as to what percentage that would be would be based on how
20 rare or how common her pattern is.
21 Q. So, if you had a spot, would you be

22 able to determine 100 percent that it was not one member
23 of the family, you just can't be 100 percent that it's
24 the person that you think it is; is that right?
25 A. If you are looking at only three
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3134

1 individuals, you would say that it was 100 percent
2 probability that it would be one of those three and not
3 the other two.
4 Q. Okay. Ms. Floyd, again, looking at
5 State's Exhibits 120 and 121. Again, I am drawing your
6 attention here to, really, five samples. The sample

7 identified as T-10, the sample identified as T-9, the
8 sample identified as LS1, LS3 and also the sample
9 identified as T-15; have we accurately portrayed their

10 locations on that T-shirt with regards to the photographs
11 on top?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. These photographs are true and
14 accurate depictions of where those particular samples
15 came from; is that right?
16 A. That appears to be the case, yes.
17 Q. Okay.
18
19 MR. GREG DAVIS: Your Honor, I'll pass
20 the witness.
21 THE COURT: Mr. Mosty.
22
23
24
25
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3135

1 CROSS EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
4 Q. Ms. Floyd, I just wanted to cover a
5 couple of things with you. You testified in some detail
6 about the procedures that you use, that you personally

7 use, and I guess the other people at Gene Screen use to
8 make sure that there is not a contamination of the
9 samples?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And that was where you're talking

12 about separate gloves. Even if I were testing, for
13 instance, a blood sample at different locations, you
14 would change gloves even between those two samples?
15 A. Not always, no. But always the

16 scissors and the forceps that are used are cleaned for it
17 to be free of any DNA so as not to have any carry-over.
18 Q. Okay. That was even if you were
19 taking one of those blood drops and a couple of samples
20 off of it?
21 A. I never touch any of the sample with
22 my gloves.
23 Q. Okay. That is what I mean. And if
24 you were taking two samples off of one small drop, you
25 take one sample, you would clean all of your instruments,
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3136

1 you would go back and take the other sample off of that
2 same drop?
3 A. If it was one drop, I typically would
4 not extract two times from the same drop.
5 Q. But if you did, the point of it is

6 that between every sample, you are going to clean your
7 instruments, isn't that right?
8 A. Between every different sample, yes, I
9 would clean my instruments. If I cut a sample off of a
10 spot and then wanted to cut that sample into smaller
11 pieces, I wouldn't clean it.
12 Q. Let's say that there was a spot this
13 big, did you make the determination about where on that
14 spot a sample should be taken? Or did somebody else
15 already do that?
16 A. Most of the samples were given to me
17 already excised.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. From a larger spot.
20 Q. So someone else had selected that
21 sample and brought it to you for testing?
22 A. Yes. Or the entire sample was given
23 to me but it was too small to even approach the size that
24 you were indicating.
25 Q. Okay. And I was really indicating
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
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1 that something out there at the scene might be that big
2 and someone has gone in and taken a -- maybe one sample

3 or maybe a couple of samples and brought to you just that
4 small sample?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. And, of course, you have no control
7 over how things are handled before you get them?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. You just have control over maintaining
10 that you don't have contamination once it's there at Gene
11 Screen?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Now, how, just in terms of trying to
14 get a grip on how sensitive these tests are, how much
15 blood does it take for you to get a suitable amount to
16 first amplify and then evaluate?
17 A. You can get a D1S80 result from a spot
18 of blood amounting to the size of a pinhead.
19 Q. Okay. So, you could, did I take it

20 from that that you could even -- that these tests are so
21 sensitive, that you could get a sample from something
22 that you really couldn't see with the naked eye?

23 A. Well, if you are, for instance,
24 testing an item of clothing, you are not going to see any
2