Volume 38

1
2 IN THE CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT NO. 3
3 DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
4
5
6
7 THE STATE OF TEXAS } NO. F-96-39973-J
8 VS: } & A-96-253
9 DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER } Kerr Co. Number
10
11
12
13
14 REPORTERS RECORD
15 JURY TRIAL
16 VOL. 38 OF 53 VOLS.
17 January 21, 1997
18 Tuesday
19
20
21
22
23
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25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3084

1 C A P T I O N
2
3
4 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Tuesday, the 21st day of
5 January, 1997, in the Criminal District Court Number 3 of
6 Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on for
7 a jury trial before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the
8 Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas,
9 with a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open
10 court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse,
11 Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as
12 follows:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3085

1
2 A P P E A R A N C E S
3
4
5 HON. JOHN VANCE
6 Criminal District Attorney
7 Dallas County, Texas
8
9 BY: HON. GREG DAVIS
10 Assistant District Attorney
11 Dallas County, Texas
12
13 AND:
14 HON. TOBY SHOOK
15 Assistant District Attorney
16 Dallas County, Texas
17
18 AND:
19 HON. SHERRI WALLACE
20 Assistant District Attorney
21 Dallas County, Texas
22
23 APPEARING FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3086

1 ADDITIONAL APPEARANCES:
2
3 HON. DOUGLAS D. MULDER
4 Attorney at Law
5 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
6 717 N. Harwood
7 Dallas, TX 75201
8
9 AND: HON. CURTIS GLOVER
10 Attorney at Law
11 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
12 717 N. Harwood

13 Dallas, TX 75201
14
15 AND: HON. RICHARD C. MOSTY
16 Attorney at Law
17 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
18 820 Main Street, Suite 200
19 Kerrville, TX 78028
20
21 AND: HON. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.
22 Attorney at Law
23 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
24 820 Main Street, Suite 200
25 Kerrville, TX 78028
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3087

1
2 AND: HON. JOHN HAGLER
3 Attorney at Law

4 901 Main Street, Suite 3601
5 Dallas, TX 75202
6 ALL ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE
7 DEFENDANT: DARLIE ROUTIER
8 MR. HAGLER HANDLING THE APPEAL
9 AND:
10 HON. ALBERT D. PATILLO, III
11 Attorney at Law
12 820 Main Street, Suite 211
13 Kerrville, TX 78028
14 APPEARING FOR: Witness-
15 Detective Jimmy Patterson

16 only on one date in trial
17 AND:
18 HON. STEVEN J. PICKELL
19 Attorney at Law
20 620 Earl Garrett Street
21 Kerrville, TX 78028
22 APPEARING FOR: Witness

23 Officer Chris Frosch
24 only on one date in trial
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3088

1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 January 21st, 1997
4 Tuesday
5 1:00 p.m.
6
7 (Whereupon, the following
8 proceedings were held in

9 open court, in the presence
10 and hearing of the

11 defendant, being
12 represented by her attorneys
13 and the representatives of
14 the State of Texas, but
15 outside the presence of the
16 jury, as follows:)
17
18

19 THE COURT: Today is Tuesday, January
20 21st, 1997. We had a recess this morning so another
21 judge could use the courtroom, and now we're beginning at
22 1:10 P.M.
23 Who is the first witness? Is it Judy
24 Floyd and Bob Poole?
25 We're starting at 1:15
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3089

1 P.M.
2 Who will be your first witness, Mr.
3 Davis?
4 MR. GREG DAVIS: Bob Poole.
5 THE COURT: All right. Everybody
6 ready?
7 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. The State
8 is ready.
9 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir.
10 Defense is ready.
11 THE COURT: All right. Bring them in.
12
13 (Whereupon, the jury

14 Was returned to the
15 Courtroom, and the
16 Proceedings were

17 Resumed on the record,
18 In open court, in the
19 Presence and hearing
20 Of the defendant,
21 As follows:)
22

23 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, if
24 we can have quiet in the courtroom, please.
25 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3090

1 Let the record reflect that all
2 parties in the trial are present and the jury is seated.
3 Mr. Poole, if you will raise your right hand, please.
4
5 (Whereupon, the witness

6 Was duly sworn by the
7 Court, to speak the truth,
8 The whole truth and
9 Nothing but the truth,
10 After which, the

11 Proceedings were
12 Resumed as follows:)
13
14 THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or
15 affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be
16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
17 help you God?
18 THE WITNESS: I do, sir.
19 THE COURT: All right. You have
20 testified before. You are under the Rule of Evidence.
21 Do you understand what that means?
22 THE WITNESS: I do, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right. If you will
24 please state your name and spell your last name for the
25 record.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3091

1 THE WITNESS: Robert A. Poole,
2 P-O-O-L-E.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Davis.
4 MR. GREG DAVIS: It will be Ms.
5 Wallace.
6 THE COURT: Ms. Wallace, excuse me.
7 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Yes, sir.

8 THE COURT: All right. You may
9 proceed.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3092

1 Whereupon,
2
3 ROBERT A. POOLE,
4
5 Was called as a witness, for the State of Texas, having
6 been first duly sworn by the Court to speak the truth,

7 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in
8 open court, as follows:
9
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
13 Q. How are you employed, Mr. Poole?

14 A. I'm employed by the Institute of
15 Forensic Sciences in Dallas, also known as the Dallas
16 County Crime Laboratory.

17 Q. What I think the jurors have heard it
18 referred to is SWIFS?
19 A. Yes, ma'am. That's correct.
20 Q. You work in the crime lab portion of
21 that building?
22 A. I do, ma'am, yes.
23 Q. What job title do you have?
24 A. I am a firearm and tool mark examiner.
25 Q. What is your educational background
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3093

1 and experience that qualifies you to hold that position?
2 A. I have a Masters Degree from Boston
3 University, but my technical training came as a result of
4 my active duty service in the U.S. Army.
5 In 1975, when I was on active duty I
6 was selected for and subsequently went to the U.S. Army
7 Crime Laboratory System, where I was enrolled in a
8 two-year course in firearm and tool mark identification.
9 I completed that formal training in
10 1977. And I was then, at that time, certified by the
11 Department of the Army as a firearm and tool mark
12 examiner.
13 And I did that work almost exclusively
14 until I retired from active duty in 1992 to accept the
15 position that was offered to me in Dallas.
16 Q. And so, you have been doing this work
17 for about 20 years; is that about right?
18 A. Yes, ma'am, a little over 20 years.
19 Q. Have you been published and have you
20 taught as well on this subject?
21 A. I have.
22 Q. Okay. If you would, tell the members
23 of the jury what a tool mark is.
24 A. A tool mark is really, in a forensic
25 sense, that is in doing the kind of work that I do, is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3094

1 essentially two objects that come into contact with one
2 another, and the harder of the two has the opportunity or
3 the ability to leave its characteristics on the softer of
4 the two.
5 And tool marks can include a variety
6 of things and substances. For example, common tools that
7 you and I know, might include screwdrivers, bolt cutters,
8 wire cutters, pliers, those kinds of things are
9 traditional tools that are used in burglary
10 investigations and those are the kinds of things that I
11 would commonly come in contact with, and do tool mark
12 analysis.
13 But a tool can be essentially anything
14 that is harder than the object on which it is acting, and
15 then leaves its marks on the softer of the two.
16 Q. About how many tool marks have you
17 examined, Mr. Poole?
18 A. Over the course of my career, I have
19 examined thousands of tools marks.
20 Q. Let me ask you if you were asked to do
21 that sort of testing in this type of case?
22 A. Yes, I was.
23 Q. I am going to show you what's been
24 admitted into evidence as State's Exhibit 1-A. Outside
25 the jury's presence, did I ask you to look at that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3095

1 picture?
2 A. Yes, ma'am.
3 Q. Could you step down, please. Were you
4 given a portion of Devon Routier's chest plate to test?
5 A. Yes, ma'am, I was.
6 Q. On State's Exhibit 1-A, would you show
7 the jury on this photograph what area you were given?
8 A. The medical examiner's office
9 submitted a portion of the chest plate that would have
10 included these two major cut areas, and it was perhaps as
11 much as three inches around those two marks, the chest
12 plate itself, that was sent over to the laboratory.
13 Q. So you were actually given the bone
14 and the cartilage of that plate?

15 A. Yes, ma'am.
16 Q. Okay. Once you got that, what -- how
17 do you go about testing markings on that chest plate?
18 A. Well, the initial problem that I am
19 faced with is being able to get to the markings, if, in
20 fact, there are any there.
21 So, what I have to do is, I have to
22 cut a plug out, actually cut out the section of rib, the
23 section of cartilage that has the stab wound in it, in
24 this case.
25 Once I have cut the plug, I am then
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3096

1 interested in looking at and seeing if I can detect
2 anything in the way of tool marks on the actual rib bone,
3 on the cartilage that makes up the rib bone itself. And
4 so, after having cut the plug, I then expose the portion
5 of the -- of the rib where the instrument would have gone
6 through. And I look at it microscopically to see if
7 there is anything there.
8 Q. Did you find anything in the two holes
9 in Devon Routier's chest plate?
10 A. I found significant tool marks in the
11 lower of the two. The upper one, though it is damaged

12 and the damage is obvious, there were no tool markings
13 there that I could use to identify the instrument that
14 might have done it.
15 Q. Mr. Poole, when you realized in the
16 lower hole that you had sufficient tool marks to do some
17 analysis, were you also given some weapons, some tools?
18 A. I was.

19 Q. Let me show you what has been admitted
20 into evidence as the Guzman -- the knives found around

21 the Guzman home, Nos. 21 and 22. And ask you if you
22 received those?
23 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
24 Q. Did you examine those knives to
25 determine if they made the wound in Devon Routier?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3097

1 A. Yes, ma'am, I did.
2 Q. And what was your conclusion?
3 A. That these knives can be excluded,
4 that is, that these knives did not make at least one of
5 the cuts in the chest plate of the young -- of Devon.

6 Q. So those knives did not cause that
7 hole. Is that what you are telling us?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Now State's Exhibit 67. Were you also
10 asked to examine the weapon found in the Routier kitchen?
11 A. I was.
12 Q. And, did you have an opportunity to
13 compare that as well to the breast plate, the hole in
14 Devon Routier?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. What was your conclusion with that?
17 A. My conclusion was that the
18 characteristics of the damage that was present on the
19 cartilage, was similar to the test marks that I received
20 in making stabs with this knife.
21 However, I was not able to
22 conclusively determine that this was the knife that was
23 used. But my opinion would be, that a knife with similar
24 characteristics, specifically, a knife that would have
25 perhaps smooth areas in between some serrations. That is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3098

1 the kind of instrument that was -- that would have been
2 used, in my opinion.
3 Q. So, what you are saying is that these
4 knives found in the Guzman home didn't do it, and that
5 weapon No. 67 is the same class characteristics?
6
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
8 leading.
9
10 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
11 Q. Is that right?
12
13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
14 leading.
15 THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled.
16 Let's phrase our questions right.
17
18 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
19 Q. Is that what you are saying?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. All right.
22
23 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Pass the witness.
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3099

1 CROSS EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
4 Q. Just a thing or two, Mr. Poole. You
5 examined, I take it, both of those wounds, did you?
6 A. I did, sir, yes.
7 Q. Would we be safe in assuming that in
8 the course of the thoroughness of your examination, you
9 discussed those wounds with the autopsying physician?
10 A. I did not, sir.
11 Q. You did not?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Okay. I was going to ask you then if

14 you had an opinion, within your field of expertise, as to
15 whether or not the child was standing, sitting or lying
16 down, at the time that those injuries were inflicted?
17
18 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Your Honor, I'll
19 object to that, he said that he didn't have the
20 discussion.
21 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll let him
22 answer if he knows.
23 THE WITNESS: I have no opinion as to
24 the position of the victim at the time of the stabbing.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3100

1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
2 Q. Okay. Just out of curiosity, when
3 were you asked to do this analysis?
4 A. My involvement was perhaps a week or
5 maybe a week and a half before Christmas.
6 Q. In December?
7 A. Yes, sir, in December.
8 Q. Okay. And, if I understood you
9 correctly, you were saying basically, that the lower
10 wound, you can't tell whether it was made by that
11 serrated-bladed knife or not?
12 A. My answer is with regard to this knife
13 specifically, and the question being, Is this the knife
14 that did it? My answer would be I don't know.
15 Q. So you can't tell us anything really?
16 A. I can't tell -- well, I know that it
17 is a knife with characteristics like this knife, but I

18 cannot determine whether or not it is this knife or not.
19 Q. Could you tell whether or not both

20 punctures, both injuries, both stab wounds were made by
21 the same instrument?
22 A. No, sir, because the upper wound
23 didn't have any of those characteristics that I could use
24 to discriminate the characteristics of the instrument
25 that was used.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3101

1 Q. Okay. I take it then, your answer is
2 that the stab wounds as you examined them are consistent
3 with being inflicted by separate, different weapons?
4 A. No, sir. I'm not saying separate or
5 different. The one has no characteristics that I could
6 use to make any kind of judgment, other than it's there.

7 And the second one did have an abundance of markings that
8 allowed me to identify the class or the style of the
9 instrument that was used. But I cannot determine whether
10 or not this was the specific instrument used.
11 Q. And you can't tell us whether these
12 knives or knives like these could have been used to make
13 the upper injury?
14 A. That's correct, sir. I don't have any
15 idea about the instrument that was used to make that
16 upper one.
17 Q. So, you are saying that these knives
18 then could have been used to make the higher of the two
19 injuries?
20 A. Those knives and any other instrument
21 capable of penetrating.
22 Q. You know, I notice with interest
23 that -- see if you notice this: You notice that these
24 wounds are made at different angles?
25 A. Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3102

1 Q. What does that -- does that tell you
2 that the person inflicting the wound to make this one,
3 and then if you were going to stab there you would have

4 to do that, so, to stab like that with a knife held like
5 that, you would change your position or the body would

6 change its position or you could change the manner in
7 which you were holding the knife?
8 A. Sir, there are a tremendous number of
9 variables. First of all, in stabbing situations very
10 seldom, it has been my experience, does the victim remain
11 stationary.
12 Q. Well, that depends on the victim and
13 it depends on the person inflicting the injuries; is that
14 not correct?
15 A. There are a tremendous number of areas
16 that enter into the characteristics.
17 Q. I mean, you would expect different

18 injuries, perhaps if you and I were involved, you with
19 that knife, and me with this knife, than you would if
20 either of us were involved with a child?

21 A. Well, I think the circumstances would
22 dictate an awful lot of that, sir. Whether or not we

23 were both conscious, whether or not we would -- I mean,
24 there's just a tremendous amount of variables that enter
25 into what occurs during that kind of an incident.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3103

1 Q. I guess there isn't anything in your
2 vast range of experience that would permit you to
3 speculate as to how many assailants were involved in
4 these injuries?
5 A. No, sir, I wouldn't care to speculate.
6 Q. Did you examine the injuries to the
7 other child?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. You weren't asked to examine injuries
10 to the other child?
11 A. That's correct, sir.
12 Q. Okay. Who called you about this?
13 A. I was first brought into this aspect
14 by Mr. Linch, one of our trace evidence analysts.
15 Q. Okay.
16
17 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I believe that's
18 all. Thank you, Mr. Poole.
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3104

1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
4 Q. Mr. Poole, that knife, is it still
5 there in front of you?
6 A. It's here on the side.
7 Q. State's Exhibit No. 67. Could that
8 knife have caused both wounds to Devon Routier?
9 A. It could have.
10
11 THE COURT: Anything else? All right.
12 Thank you, sir. You are excused subject to recall. You
13 may return to Dallas.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
15 THE COURT: All right. The next
16 witness.
17 MR. GREG DAVIS: The State will call
18 Judy Floyd.
19 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Floyd, if
20 you will have a seat here, please.
21 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this
22 witness has already been sworn outside your presence.
23 Speak loudly so that the gentleman and
24 lady down there in the corner can hear you.
25 Okay?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3105

1 THE WITNESS: All right.
2 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead,
3 please.
4 MR. GREG DAVIS: Thank you.
5
6
7 Whereupon,
8
9 JUDITH FLOYD,
10
11 was called as a witness, for the State of Texas, having
12 been first duly sworn by the Court to speak the truth,
13 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in
14 open court, as follows:
15
16
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18
19 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
20 Q. Ma'am, would you please tell us your
21 full name.
22 A. Judith Irene Floyd.
23 Q. Ms. Floyd, how are you employed?
24 A. I am the forensic laboratory
25 supervisor at Gene Screen in Dallas.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3106

1 Q. Okay. What is Gene Screen?
2 A. Gene Screen is a DNA identity testing
3 laboratory. We do identity testing in three areas: One
4 would be genetic analysis; the other would be paternity
5 testing; and the third one would be forensic analysis.

6 Q. How long have you been with Gene
7 Screen?
8 A. Seven and a half years.
9 Q. All right. Would you tell us briefly
10 about your educational and professional background that
11 entitles you to hold your present position?
12 A. I have a degree from the University of
13 Texas at Dallas in Molecular Biology. I have three years
14 experience prior to Gene Screen in a genetics testing
15 laboratory doing cancer research.
16 And that particular occupation
17 actually required that I perform more DNA techniques than
18 I do perform at Gene Screen.
19 Since joining Gene Screen, I have also
20 attended four separate lab and lecture courses for
21 instruction on RFLP analysis and PCR methods, which would
22 be DQ-Alpha, polymarker, D1S80 and STRs, which are all
23 techniques that we've employed in crime scene
24 investigation.
25 Q. Okay. What are your present duties at
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3107

1 Gene Screen?
2 A. My present duties at Gene Screen are
3 teaching other forensic analysts that come into the

4 laboratory, and I have also been to South America on
5 three occasions teaching technicians at that particular
6 locale how to do these techniques also.
7 I perform case work myself, and I am
8 also supervisor of the laboratory, which means that I am
9 responsible for the overall running of the laboratory

10 itself, responsible for testimony, and I am involved in
11 the incorporation of new DNA testing methods at Gene
12 Screen.
13 Q. Okay. How long have you actually been
14 performing DNA analysis?
15 A. A little over 10 years.
16 Q. All right. Can you give us an idea of
17 the number of cases in which you have actually done this
18 DNA analysis?
19 A. That would be approximately 600 cases
20 and that would involve a little over 4,000 samples.
21 Q. All right. And, over the last 10
22 years, have you had occasion to testify as an expert in
23 court before?
24 A. Yes, I have.
25 Q. And, in how many cases have you
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3108

1 testified previously?
2 A. As far as cases, I'm not sure, but as
3 far as times in court, that would be about 70. And the
4 cases themselves would be less than 70, simply because

5 some of these may have been in pre-trial hearings and
6 then the actual testimony at the trial itself.
7 Q. Okay. In what type of cases is DNA
8 analysis used?
9 A. DNA analysis is used in sexual assault
10 cases, homicide, it may be involved in a hit and run
11 case, assault, missing persons, incest cases.
12 In civil cases it may be incorporated
13 in a paternity suit, identity testing, involving,
14 discerning whether or not the cells from the slide from
15 which a diagnosis has been rendered to the blood of a
16 patient, just to make sure that the cells on the slide do
17 indeed belong to that patient.
18 Insurance companies are also
19 incorporating more and more DNA testing in their suits.
20 Q. All right. I want to go -- let's just
21 go to square one here. And explain to me what DNA is.
22 A. DNA is a substance that is found
23 within the cells of your body. This particular substance
24 is our genetic code or the information contained within
25 our cells that makes us the unique individuals that we
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3109

1 are.
2 The coding, or the message on that DNA
3 is what causes you to have blue eyes or brown eyes, it
4 causes you to be short, curly hair, your skin color, it
5 determines whether you have type A blood or type O blood.
6 All of our physical characteristics
7 that we can see and those that we cannot see is
8 determined by the message that is incorporated on our DNA
9 strands.
10 Many of you have heard of DNA referred
11 to as chromosomes. That is a form of DNA. And we
12 actually look at the chromosomes within the cells, look
13 at specific sites to obtain information in order to
14 determine whether or not a person could be a donor of a
15 biological specimen of some sort. And the reason we can
16 do that, is because the DNA in each of your cells, within
17 the individual, is the same.
18 For instance, the DNA in your skin

19 cell, is the very same as the DNA in your blood cells.
20 The DNA in your hair is the same. But your DNA is
21 different from the individual sitting next to you.
22 That is why we can incorporate this
23 type of testing in forensic analysis and match known
24 blood specimens of a victim or a suspect to specimens
25 that may have been found at the crime scene.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3110

1 Q. Okay. For instance, if you had a
2 sample of my blood, from my blood, could you get my
3 genetic code, my DNA code?
4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. And my code would be different
6 than yours and different than anyone else in the
7 courtroom or in the world, correct?
8 A. That is true, unless you had an
9 identical twin.
10 Q. All right. So, would it be fair to
11 call this, in a way, like a genetic fingerprint then that
12 is unique to each individual?
13 A. That would be fair.
14 Q. You've mentioned when you talked about
15 Gene Screen you went through a lot of letters. You told
16 us about RFLP, PCR, and DQ-Alpha and D1S80. And I want
17 to go through those in just a little bit more detail.
18 Are those types of DNA tests that are available to be
19 run?
20 A. Yes, they are. There are actually two
21 general categories. And then subtesting categories, you
22 might say, under the heading of PCR.
23 Q. Okay. What would be kind of the three
24 major categories then if we look at it?
25 A. We look at actually two major
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3111

1 categories. One is RFLP analysis and that is what you
2 may have referred to as DNA fingerprinting.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. The PCR analysis is another type of
5 testing and it actually has some subgroups which we will
6 talk about also.
7 Q. Okay. All right. So, we have got
8 these two worlds. We have got the RFLP world and then we
9 have got this PCR world, right?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. All right. Just briefly, if you are
12 going to do an RFLP test, a DNA test using that method,
13 what exactly are you looking at on the genetic code?
14 A. If you are going to performed an RFLP
15 analysis, you are looking at different length of
16 fragments that are generated by cutting your DNA with,
17 what we call, molecular scissors, they are enzymes.
18 And they read the DNA code and they
19 cut at specific sites according to what they are reading
20 along the code. And every individual has specific links
21 that are generated by applying this enzyme to their DNA.
22 And it is those links, that we then examine and compare
23 to some other substance.
24 Q. Would it be kind of like -- a DNA
25 strand being kind of like a ladder here in the courtroom,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3112

1 and you go in with these molecular cutters and on mine,
2 for instance, the first cutter may cut the first rung of
3 that ladder out, the second cutter may do another rung

4 and on and on and on, and you can identify those rungs as
5 you look at it; is that right?
6 A. That's correct. You can compare it in
7 that manner or even to a strand of beads. And it may cut
8 six links out of one strand for one person and three
9 links out of another person.
10 Q. All right. So, that would be in the
11 RFLP world. Now, the PCR world, that is different, isn't
12 it?
13 A. That is a different technique.
14 Q. Okay. Just within the general
15 overview of PCR, how do you do that, as opposed to going
16 in there and actually cutting different strands along
17 there? What do you do with the PCR?
18 A. With PCR you already typically have
19 very small strands of DNA. You may be working with
20 degraded DNA, or DNA that has been broken down into very
21 small pieces through exposure to bacteria, to sunlight or
22 other factors such as moisture and humidity.
23 You actually amplify the DNA at a
24 certain site on the DNA. You want to look at a type or
25 a -- some sort of information at a specific site on a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
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1 DNA, but you may not have enough. So you amplify it and
2 it's copied, many, many times, millions of times. It's
3 very similar to placing a sheet of paper on a copying
4 machine and setting the cycle to 100 copies.
5 All of your copies are going to be
6 exact duplicates of your original, and that is
7 essentially what we do with the PCR method. We're
8 actually copying a particular area on the DNA, obtaining
9 many, many copies and then we're looking at this
10 amplified DNA as to what type an individual may have.
11 Q. Would one of the advantages of PCR be
12 that you need less of a sample in order to do your
13 testing?
14 A. That is definitely an advantage.

15 Q. Okay. So you actually need more
16 material, more DNA material to do the RFLP, right?
17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, at Gene Screen, as you look at
19 the PCR, do you basically, or do you primarily do PCR
20 testing at Gene Screen or do you do both?

21 A. I do both, but primarily PCR analysis.
22 Q. All right. Well, let's talk about the
23 PCR then. Within the PCR family, do you have, what I am
24 going to call, DQ-Alpha testing, and then do you have
25 this D1S80 testing over here within the PCR family?
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1 A. Yes, that is two of the four methods
2 that we now incorporate.
3 Q. Okay. Is there another one called,
4 STR, for instance?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Let's just stick with D1S80 and
7 DQ-Alpha. What is going to be the basic difference
8 between those two PCR tests?
9 A. The basic difference between those two
10 tests, is that with DQ-Alpha analysis, your final product
11 is going to be a strip with blue dots. And those blue

12 dots will be positive for whatever DQ-Alpha type may be
13 present in a sample.
14 If you are performing D1S80 analysis,
15 you're going to see the result in the form of discrete
16 bands on a film.
17 And the final product is different as
18 well as the methodology that you are incorporating. For
19 instance, with DQ-Alpha you're actually looking at the
20 difference in sequence, or a difference in coding along
21 the DNA.

22 With the D1S80 method, you are looking
23 at various lengths of DNA because those are due to tandem
24 repeats or stuttering the D1S80 sequence. And that quite
25 often varies from individual to individual.
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3115

1 Q. Okay. Are there some cases that you
2 get, where you decide the DQ-Alpha testing would be best?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are there other cases that you might

5 get in, where you may think that this other type of PCR
6 testing, this D1S80 might be better?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Might there also be cases that you
9 look at and you might decide that RFLP might be best for
10 that job?
11 A. If I have a choice, and plenty of DNA
12 so that I have the luxury of making that choice, yes.

13 Q. All right. In this particular case,
14 Ms. Floyd, were several items submitted to you for DNA
15 analysis?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And, did you receive items from

18 Charles Linch and Carolyn Van Winkle, of the Institute of
19 Forensic Sciences in Dallas?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Okay. Did you receive items from any
22 other individuals?
23 A. Only Kathryn Long, Charlie Linch and
24 Carolyn Van Winkle.
25 Q. And when you received those items, did
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1 you sit down and try to decide what kind of testing that
2 you wanted to do on those items?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In fact, did you and I, and you have a
5 boss, Dr. Robert Giles there at Gene Screen?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did we all sit down and try to decide
8 what kind of testing you thought would be best for these
9 items?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. All right. What kind of testing did
12 you finally decide on for these items?
13 A. With this particular case we decided
14 D1S80 would probably be the preferred testing, using PCR
15 analysis.
16 Q. Okay. Why did you finally choose to
17 do D1S80 testing?
18 A. Well, we knew that these stains were
19 most likely going to yield a possible mixture of three
20 related individuals. If they are related, that means
21 they are going to be sharing some banding pattern or some
22 alleles because each child would inherit half of their

23 DNA from their mother, and the other half from their
24 father. So there would be some commonality there that
25 might complicate the testing method.
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1 If you have mixtures present in a
2 sample, that is DNA that is donated through blood from
3 more than one individual, the strip method or DQ-Alpha is
4 very hard to read.
5 If you have only one individual
6 donating blood, it is fine. But if you have a mixture,

7 it's too difficult to discern what came from where. If
8 you use D1S80 you have discrete bands generated by each

9 individual and you can best determine whether or not that
10 particular person's DNA might be present in that
11 specimen.
12 Q. Okay. Would a good analogy be that
13 you have got three fingerprints from individuals within a
14 family and their fingerprints are somewhat similar
15 because they are all in the same family.
16 Is that what the alleles are,
17 basically?
18 A. Similar.
19 Q. Okay. And when you talk about a

20 mixture, it may not be a good analogy, but I think of
21 where you have one fingerprint and then over that you

22 might have another fingerprint that might obscure part of
23 the first fingerprint. Is that what a mixture is
24 sometimes in DNA terms?
25 A. It could be or you could share some
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1 points on one fingerprint, on your fingerprint that you
2 would find also in the other one.
3 Q. And this D1S80, in essence, would it
4 allow you to sort of separate these two fingerprints and
5 look at them and determine whose fingerprint is where?
6 A. Yes. And you could determine also
7 which points were actually shared between the
8 individuals.
9 Q. When you receive samples out there at
10 Gene Screen for testing, just walk us through the
11 procedures that you use. What is the first thing that
12 you do when you receive the samples, in this case, for
13 instance?
14 A. The first thing that we do, is to
15 establish the chain of custody, document how we receive
16 the samples, from whom, what the samples were, assign a
17 case number, and for each piece of evidence that is

18 applicable to this case, it also receives it's own
19 individual accession number.
20 At that point, I will photograph the
21 specimens before I begin work, and determine what type of
22 testing method might be the best or what type of testing
23 method may be the only type that I can use on that
24 particular case.
25 It depends on the specimens, how much
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3119

1 there is, what condition they are in and how fast someone
2 would like to have some results.
3 Q. What procedures do you have out at

4 Gene Screen to prevent cross-contamination, you know,
5 something happening where two samples get intermingled
6 before you do the testing? What sort of safeguards do
7 you have?
8 A. It's policy to open only one item of

9 evidence at a time. Never do I open two at a time. Open
10 only one, take a picture, seal it back up. Open another
11 one, take a picture, seal it back up.
12 After that, I then begin work on the
13 specimen, and again, open only one at a time, cut it out,
14 begin processing it. I open only one tube at a time if I
15 have several tubes on a rack. I wear gloves. My
16 utensils such as my forceps and my scissors are always,
17 always cleaned between specimens.
18 We use aerosol resistant tips so that
19 whenever I am pipetting from one solution into another,
20 there is no carry-over by aerosol contamination.
21 Q. Okay. How long does the D1S80 test
22 take to run?
23 A. Approximately three days.
24 Q. All right. So from the time that you
25 are actually beginning that test to the finish when you
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3120

1 get results, it's about three days; is that right?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. That test is actually run out at Gene
4 Screen, correct?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Okay. Let's say you have got a

7 sample, you have tested it using D1S80, what do you
8 actually do to get a result that you can then report back
9 to us? How do you do that?
10 A. What I do first is to remove a
11 portion, for instance, of a blood stain, a very small
12 amount from the blood stain. Remove the DNA from the
13 white cells that are contained within that blood. I have
14 a solution of DNA, I amplify it, copy it, as I mentioned
15 a few minutes ago, obtain a tube of amplified DNA. I

16 then load this amplified DNA on acrylamide gel. And I
17 need this acrylamide gel to enable me to visualize the
18 different lengths of DNA that I have in that particular
19 sample.
20 I do a silver stain which then will
21 expose those particular DNA bands to me, and a film is a
22 permanent record of this.
23 At that point, we then analyze the

24 results of the unknown, or the evidence specimen and
25 compare that to known specimens, and determine whether we
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1 have an inclusion, or a match, or an exclusion.
2 If you have an exclusion then you know
3 that a particular individual could not have donated or
4 could not have been the donor of whatever DNA or
5 biological specimen you are looking at on the evidence.
6 Q. Okay. So on the known sample, for

7 instance, where you know the contributor of that DNA,
8 will that have a set length to it already?
9 A. Yes. If you -- we always receive
10 blood standards and that is what we call our known

11 sample, because we know the donor of that particular
12 item. And we have, what we call, our reference, or our
13 standard bands derived from that person's blood.
14 Q. All right. So, when you are doing
15 this comparison, do you actually have this standard band
16 from the known, and then you can actually visualize -- do
17 you visually see whether or not you have a got a match
18 between the known and the unknown?
19 A. Yes. You visualize it, and also
20 you're comparing those bands to a ladder. When I say
21 ladder, I mean the ladder that we use on the gel contains
22 all of the allele sizes, or all of the band lengths that
23 you are going to find generated from any sample.
24 Then if it lines up with band number
25 29, you know you have a 29. If it lines up with band
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1 number 14, you know you have a 14.
2 Q. And how long have you actually been
3 doing this, where you have actually looked at these bands
4 and determined whether or not you have got a match where
5 you can say, it's included, or you say, no, I don't have
6 a match, I can exclude this as being the same? How long?
7 A. For D1S80 testing for approximately
8 three years, but it is very similar to comparing the
9 results for RFLP analysis, and that I have been
10 performing for seven and a half years.
11 Q. Ms. Floyd, in this case, did you
12 receive from the folks over there at SWIFS, blood samples
13 identified as having come from Darlie Routier, Darin
14 Routier, Damon Routier and Devon Routier?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Would those then be your known
17 samples where you know the length that you are looking

18 for for each one of those individuals?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Let me begin with items from a
21 T-shirt. Did you receive several blood samples

22 identified as having come from a T-shirt worn by the
23 defendant in this case?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Okay. And did those samples come to
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3123

1 you from Carolyn Van Winkle and Charles Linch of SWIFS?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you also receive several blood
4 samples identified as having come from inside 5801 Eagle
5 Drive in Rowlett?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did those items come from Charles
8 Linch also?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you also receive several blood
11 samples identified as coming from a head hair, a sock, a
12 comforter, Reebok tennis shoes and a knife?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Who did you receive those
15 samples from?
16 A. Charles Linch.
17 Q. Okay. All right. Now when those

18 items come over, does Charles Linch or Carolyn Van
19 Winkle, do they actually have their SWIFS number assigned
20 to those items, when they come over there to you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Just for reference sake,
23 starting with the comforter, did that come over as SWIFS
24 item No. 18?
25 A. Yes, it did.
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3124

1 Q. Okay. The Reebok tennis shoes, did
2 those come over as SWIFS items No. 1O3?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The knife, did that come over as SWIFS
5 item No. 2?
6 A. Now, the knife itself, I did not
7 receive.
8 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. The samples off of
9 the knife?
10 A. The samples from the knife. Those
11 particular stains I have listed as No. 2.
12 Q. Right. That is SWIFS item No. 2. And
13 finally, the stains removed and sent to you from a sock,
14 did those show to be SWIFS item No. 27?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. If we could, let's start with those
17 items. If we could, we have the comforter that came over
18 as SWIFS item No. 18. Can you tell us what the results
19 of your DNA analysis was for the comforter items?
20 A. Yes. The comforter, I had four
21 stains, three of those stains typed as Devon, the fourth
22 stain did not yield a result.
23 Q. Okay. So you had four, three of them
24 came back as matching Devon Routier, correct?
25 A. Correct.
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3125

1 Q. The fourth one, you didn't get a
2 result. Is that uncommon that sometimes you get a stain
3 and you can't get a result?
4 A. No, it's not uncommon and using the
5 D1S80 technique, if you retype the specimen, it's very
6 likely you could get a result.
7 Q. All right. So the three of them that
8 you got a result, they all came back to Devon, correct?
9 A. Correct.

10 Q. The Reeboks, SWIFS item No. 1O3, could
11 you give us the results of your analysis, please?
12 A. I worked with two stains from the
13 Reeboks. Both of those came back as matching Darlie.
14 Q. Okay. Two stains both matched Darlie
15 Routier, correct?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. The samples off the knife, SWIFS item
18 No. 2, what were your results there?
19 A. I had four stains from the knife. Two
20 of those stains matched Darlie Routier, one matched Damon
21 Routier, and the fourth one contained a combination of
22 Darlie and Damon Routier.
23 Q. Okay. So two of them matched Darlie
24 Routier, one of them came back to Damon Routier and the
25 other one is a mixture; is that right?
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3126

1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And, is a mixture something that you
3 see also, from time to time? It's kind of like the two
4 fingerprints, one over another?
5
6 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Object to the
7 leading.
8 THE COURT: I'll sustain it. And
9 let's just phrase our questions properly.
10 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir, I'll do
11 that.
12
13 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
14 Q. Is one of them a mixture then?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And finally, the sock, SWIFS item No.
17 27, what were your results?
18 A. I had six stains from the sock. One
19 stain typed as Damon Routier -- I'm sorry. Two of those
20 stains typed as Damon Routier.
21 Two typed as Devon Routier -- three
22 typed as Devon Routier. So two typed as Damon, three

23 typed as Devon Routier. The very last stain did not
24 type.
25 Q. Okay. What does that mean for the
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3127

1 last sample? What does that mean?
2 A. I would just simply issue no result,
3 indicating that the first attempt to obtain results from
4 that one were unsuccessful.
5 Q. So five of the six you got results?
6 A. Right. That's correct.
7 Q. And on the sock, again, did you find
8 any samples that matched the blood of Darlie Routier?

9 A. Originally, when I had the sock, I
10 typed the toe, which gave a very faint typing matching
11 the D1S80 type of Darlie Routier.

12 Q. Okay. Do you have an opinion as a DNA
13 analyst as to why that sample came back to Darlie Routier
14 from the toe area? Do you have an idea of what you were
15 actually seeing there?
16 A. When I was asked to test the sock,

17 there was an interest in who might have been the wearer
18 of the sock. I tested the toe area, the heel area and
19 the band of the sock. Which typically, is a site where
20 you might obtain cells from the person having worn a

21 sock. And that is the reason that I chose that area, and
22 it did not appear to have blood stains in that particular
23 area.
24 Since I did obtain a faint typing, and
25 quite often, if you're going to get the person who might
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3128

1 have worn the sock, it's going to be fairly faint. And
2 that is a possibility.
3 Q. Okay. Well, if -- as I wear
4 something, do I actually lose skin cells as I wear
5 something?
6 A. Certainly. Especially to clothing
7 that may be closer to your body. For instance, around
8 the collar of your shirt, the cuff of your sleeve, the
9 binding area on your sock.
10 Q. Okay. From the socks I am wearing
11 today, would you expect that at the end of the day that

12 you would actually be able to find my skin cells on this
13 sock?
14 A. Yes, I would. The more stress you're
15 under, the more cells I'm likely to find.
16 Q. You would probably see a bunch of them
17 today then, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would the same be true if I put this
20 sock over my hand and wore it around all day and I am
21 stressed? Would you expect to see my skin cells from my
22 hand on that sock?
23 A. That is a possibility, yes.
24 Q. And from those skin cells left on my
25 sock either from wearing it on the foot or on the hand,
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3129

1 could you then extract DNA from those skin cells?
2 A. Yes, if there was sufficient there to
3 give a typing, I could, definitely.
4 Q. Okay. From the items that you tested
5 that we have gone over: From the comforter, the Reeboks,
6 the knife and the sock, from the samples where you got
7 results that you could report out, were there any
8 unidentified samples?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Ms. Floyd, if you would look at
11 State's Exhibit No. 122. And before you testified today,
12 did I have you look over samples shown on this board, and
13 did you initial the samples that you did the testing on?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Okay. Would those include the two
16 samples listed as 105 here?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Would they also include the samples
19 that are marked as 110 and 111?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you do any testing on any other
22 items shown here on State's Exhibit 122?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Is there an additional one here from a
25 vacuum?
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3130

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay.

3 A. Also, the hallway area.
4 Q. All right. We see 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 along
5 the wall of the family room. You also tested those; is
6 that right?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And are the three on the hallway, what
9 I am going to call the entry hallway, that you did
10 testing on also?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The sample that you tested off of the
13 vacuum cleaner, what was the result of that, that
14 analysis?
15 A. The spot of blood I removed from the
16 vacuum cleaner matched Darlie Routier.
17 Q. Did you actually take that sample
18 yourself?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Where on the vacuum cleaner did you
21 take that sample?
22 A. It was taken on the plastic casing
23 just above the left wheel.
24 Q. The samples that I just showed you on
25 State's Exhibit 122, besides initialing for the sample
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3131

1 itself, are the results shown on that board, are they
2 true and correct?
3 And do they correspond with the
4 results that you found when you sampled and you tested
5 those samples?
6 A. Yes, they do.
7 Q. Ms. Floyd, again, now looking at
8 State's Exhibits 120 and 121, before you testified today,
9 have you also gone through all the samples shown in these
10 two photographs and have you identified the ones that you
11 actually tested?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Have you now initialed all the samples
14 that you tested as shown on State's Exhibit 120 and 121?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Are the results shown on these boards
17 accurate? Do they correspond to the findings after your
18 DNA analysis of the samples?
19 A. Yes, they do.
20 Q. With regards to the samples from
21 inside the house that you received to test, with regards
22 to all of the samples where you got a result, were there
23 any unidentified samples after your testing?
24 A. None of the blood stains, no.
25 Q. Okay. You were able to identify the
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3132

1 contributor on all of those?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How about with the samples that you
4 tested from the T-shirt? With regards to samples where
5 you got results, were there any unidentified samples?
6 A. No.

7 Q. Able to identify a contributor on all
8 of those; is that right?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. D1S80, I don't know how to word this,
11 but just how exact a test is that?
12 A. When performed properly, it's 100
13 percent reliable.
14 Q. All right. You were talking about
15 being able to exclude people or include people. What's
16 the power of that test, you know, in percentages, if you
17 can? How would you express that?
18 A. In the general population, it's

19 approximately 96 to 98 percent power of exclusion or
20 power of discrimination.
21 Q. Okay. What do you mean by power of
22 discrimination?
23 A. The ability to discern between one
24 individual to another by using this particular
25 methodology.
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3133

1 Q. Okay. So, what, a percentage of
2 accuracy of 96 to 98 percent? Is that what you're
3 talking about?

4 A. That's correct. Whenever you're using
5 the general public as a whole and this is a little bit

6 different in that we were trying to determine from a --
7 you might say, a group of three people if there was

8 something different other than the bands that were
9 generated by their bloods.
10 Q. Okay. What would you say the degree
11 of accuracy would be in this particular case with three
12 family members as possible contributors?
13 A. I would say that the power of
14 exclusion -- if you ran a sample and there were bands
15 that you could align, for instance, with Darlie Routier's
16 blood, but not with Devon Routier's, that means that
17 Devon is 100 percent excluded as being a donor of that
18 particular blood specimen. But Darlie would not be and
19 as to what percentage that would be would be based on how
20 rare or how common her pattern is.
21 Q. So, if you had a spot, would you be

22 able to determine 100 percent that it was not one member
23 of the family, you just can't be 100 percent that it's
24 the person that you think it is; is that right?
25 A. If you are looking at only three
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3134

1 individuals, you would say that it was 100 percent
2 probability that it would be one of those three and not
3 the other two.
4 Q. Okay. Ms. Floyd, again, looking at
5 State's Exhibits 120 and 121. Again, I am drawing your
6 attention here to, really, five samples. The sample

7 identified as T-10, the sample identified as T-9, the
8 sample identified as LS1, LS3 and also the sample
9 identified as T-15; have we accurately portrayed their

10 locations on that T-shirt with regards to the photographs
11 on top?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. These photographs are true and
14 accurate depictions of where those particular samples
15 came from; is that right?
16 A. That appears to be the case, yes.
17 Q. Okay.
18
19 MR. GREG DAVIS: Your Honor, I'll pass
20 the witness.
21 THE COURT: Mr. Mosty.
22
23
24
25
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3135

1 CROSS EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
4 Q. Ms. Floyd, I just wanted to cover a
5 couple of things with you. You testified in some detail
6 about the procedures that you use, that you personally

7 use, and I guess the other people at Gene Screen use to
8 make sure that there is not a contamination of the
9 samples?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And that was where you're talking

12 about separate gloves. Even if I were testing, for
13 instance, a blood sample at different locations, you
14 would change gloves even between those two samples?
15 A. Not always, no. But always the

16 scissors and the forceps that are used are cleaned for it
17 to be free of any DNA so as not to have any carry-over.
18 Q. Okay. That was even if you were
19 taking one of those blood drops and a couple of samples
20 off of it?
21 A. I never touch any of the sample with
22 my gloves.
23 Q. Okay. That is what I mean. And if
24 you were taking two samples off of one small drop, you
25 take one sample, you would clean all of your instruments,
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3136

1 you would go back and take the other sample off of that
2 same drop?
3 A. If it was one drop, I typically would
4 not extract two times from the same drop.
5 Q. But if you did, the point of it is

6 that between every sample, you are going to clean your
7 instruments, isn't that right?
8 A. Between every different sample, yes, I
9 would clean my instruments. If I cut a sample off of a
10 spot and then wanted to cut that sample into smaller
11 pieces, I wouldn't clean it.
12 Q. Let's say that there was a spot this
13 big, did you make the determination about where on that
14 spot a sample should be taken? Or did somebody else
15 already do that?
16 A. Most of the samples were given to me
17 already excised.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. From a larger spot.
20 Q. So someone else had selected that
21 sample and brought it to you for testing?
22 A. Yes. Or the entire sample was given
23 to me but it was too small to even approach the size that
24 you were indicating.
25 Q. Okay. And I was really indicating
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3137

1 that something out there at the scene might be that big
2 and someone has gone in and taken a -- maybe one sample

3 or maybe a couple of samples and brought to you just that
4 small sample?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. And, of course, you have no control
7 over how things are handled before you get them?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. You just have control over maintaining
10 that you don't have contamination once it's there at Gene
11 Screen?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Now, how, just in terms of trying to
14 get a grip on how sensitive these tests are, how much
15 blood does it take for you to get a suitable amount to
16 first amplify and then evaluate?
17 A. You can get a D1S80 result from a spot
18 of blood amounting to the size of a pinhead.
19 Q. Okay. So, you could, did I take it

20 from that that you could even -- that these tests are so
21 sensitive, that you could get a sample from something
22 that you really couldn't see with the naked eye?

23 A. Well, if you are, for instance,
24 testing an item of clothing, you are not going to see any
25 skin cells.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3138

1 Q. Right.
2 A. And quite often, if you have seminal
3 fluid on a stain, you may not be able to see that.
4 Q. But as to blood, even if I took a pen
5 point and dipped it on something, that blood spot might
6 be so small that I couldn't even see it with my naked
7 eye?
8 A. It is a possibility, but we do have
9 the luxury of having some color to blood, so quite often
10 we do see that.
11 Q. The point of that is that you are
12 talking about very, very, small amounts that are
13 necessary for you to do your testing?
14 A. Very small amounts, yes.
15 Q. And, so I guess, that would be one of
16 the reasons that you are so concerned about
17 contamination, wouldn't it be?
18 A. Certainly you are concerned about it,
19 that's right.
20 Q. Just the slightest bit of touching of
21 your instrument from one sample to another could bring,

22 could -- it's not going to change your result, but you're
23 going to -- it would question maybe where that sample
24 came from?
25 A. Well, actually studies have been
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3139

1 performed in which an individual, for the purpose of the
2 study, did not clean forceps or scissors between blood
3 specimens, cut or several extractions, and they found no
4 carry-over. But as good laboratory practice, certainly
5 we do always clean the instruments between cuttings.
6 Q. And, did you tell -- did you say that
7 you kept every item separate?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That is the way you would like to
10 receive them, is it not?

11 A. That is the way I typically do receive
12 them.
13 Q. You don't have, for instance, two
14 bloody rags in one bag?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And, you don't like that as a
17 scientist, you don't -- wouldn't like to receive two
18 bloody rags like that, would you?
19 A. Well, that is not the ideal situation.
20 Q. And the reason for that is that blood
21 from one might get on to the other?
22 A. That is always a possibility.
23 Q. Okay. And, once that blood from one,
24 gets on to another, from your standpoint, you can still
25 say, that that is so and so's blood, but you can't say
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3140

1 with certainty that -- which of the rags it came from?
2 A. Well, that depends on the appearance
3 of the stain, when it arrives, that might be.
4 Q. Let's go back to this. Well, let me

5 go at it this way: Let's say that first, the stain is on
6 this rag, and then there is a different stain on this
7 rag, and they are thrown together.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. And they would have the opportunity to
10 transfer the blood from the first rag to the blood from
11 the second rag.
12 And, then in fact, do. And you run
13 your test, and you can identify that one or two people,
14 or whatever you find, but you would not be able to
15 identify with certainty that the sample you got
16 originally started on the first rag.
17 A. Well, you would think that the sample
18 that was there originally, would type stronger. And we
19 do see that. Whenever you have mixtures, the lesser
20 component will give a fainter banding pattern.
21 Q. Of course, I guess that depends upon
22 how much of that blood gets transferred?
23 A. In your hypothetical situation, yes.
24 Q. Okay. Um-hum. (Attorney nodding head
25 affirmatively).
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3141

1 And, that would also be true of a
2 particular item. That is, for instance, has blood on one
3 side and is folded over and has blood on the other side.
4 And then a sample is brought to you.
5 Was the blood that was originally on
6 one side of the shirt could have ended up on the other
7 side of the shirt?
8 A. If it was soaked all the way through,
9 is that what you are asking me?
10 Q. Yeah, if there is enough blood, if it
11 were soaked enough or if there is enough blood, or it
12 stays long enough to where the blood from one side
13 actually causes blood on to the other side, then your
14 results would still be accurate, but you couldn't verify
15 where that blood had originally been?
16 A. That's true.
17 Q. You were asked to test some facial
18 hair as well, were you not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know where that facial hair
21 came from, where it was located at the scene?
22 A. The best of my knowledge, I believe it
23 was from a rug, but I am not sure where the rug itself
24 was located.
25 Q. Okay. And, the results of your DNA
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3142

1 testing of that head hair showed you what? I'm sorry.
2 Was it a head hair or do you know?
3 A. Facial hair.

4 Q. Facial hair?
5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Okay. The results of that was what?
7 A. The result of that particular facial
8 hair was that it did not match any of the three
9 individuals in this case.
10 Q. Okay. And, also did not match Darin
11 Routier either, did it?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Okay. So that is an unknown facial
14 hair? Unidentified is maybe a better word?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. When did you first start doing
17 your testing?
18 A. In this particular case?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Our first specimens were received
21 September, September 18.
22 Q. Okay. And, you issued reports when?
23 December?
24 A. December 2nd and the second report on
25 January the 7th.
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3143

1 Q. The second report is the day after
2 this trial started?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Okay. Now, you testified about a sock
5 and you did not detect, your statement was you did not
6 detect anyone's blood on the sock except for two
7 locations of Damon and three of Devon?
8 A. I believe that's correct.

9 Q. And one was a no result?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. How do you get these no results?
12 A. No result means that there was no

13 banding pattern that was generated from the amplification
14 of the sample or there was no amplification, in other
15 words.
16 Q. Okay. And, from a no result, I guess
17 you can draw no conclusions whatsoever?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Now, you also said -- you testified
20 about a faint DNA sample. What was that?
21 A. From the sock?
22 Q. From the sock.
23 A. From the testing of the toe area there
24 was a very faint pattern generated which was the same as
25 that generated by Darlie Routier's blood.
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3144

1 Q. Okay. But that could also be the same
2 as her skin?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And that could be the same as her
5 saliva?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. So, if some assailant had that sock in
8 his hand and stuffed it or tried to stuff it in her
9 mouth, that could leave that kind of result?
10 A. It's a possibility.
11 Q. If an assailant had that sock in his
12 hand and contacted her skin, it could have that kind of
13 result?
14 A. Well, I would think that would have to
15 be pretty hard contact in order to obtain those skin

16 cells, yes. But then you might also obtain skin cells
17 from his hand applying the same pressure.
18 Q. Right. And you don't know -- I guess
19 you don't know how long that kind of cell could be on a
20 sock?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And there is no way to tell that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. If someone had handled that sock, I
25 guess if they had picked it up, they could have their
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3145

1 skin cells on it?
2 A. Well, you wouldn't expect such a light
3 pressure just picking it up to pose a problem. Contact
4 would be slight and it would be light.
5 Q. Well, you -- this was a faint result,
6 wasn't it?
7 A. Yes, but, that is not uncommon for a
8 typing from an item of clothing that has been worn by
9 someone, because you are not going to get very many cells
10 that type very strongly.
11 Q. I'm just using your words. You called
12 it in your report a faint result, didn't you?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. That could be consistent with any
15 number of contacts between skin or saliva and that sock?
16 A. Well, based on my experience, it's
17 takes more than just a light contact such as picking up a
18 sock.
19 Q. Well, you know, you don't know how
20 someone picks it up, do you?
21 A. No, not by the way I pick it up and by
22 the way I have seen most people pick up a sock that
23 looked like that. I would think it would be a light
24 touch.
25 Q. Okay. Now, you had a -- you did
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3146

1 the -- did you do a saliva swab on Sarah Jones?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. And were you the one that determined
4 that her head hair was not -- that the sample that was

5 thought to be Darlie Routier's sample was, in fact, Sarah
6 Jones'?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. You made that determination?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And, one thing, when you looked at
11 that vacuum cleaner, were you able to see blood on it?
12 You took that sample, didn't you?
13 A. That's correct. I removed that
14 particular blood spot from the vacuum.
15 Q. That was something you were able to
16 visually identify as what you thought to be a blood spot?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you do presumptive tests on blood,
19 or do you just --
20 A. No, I do not.
21 Q. -- wait until you get to the lab and
22 make the determination that it's blood?
23 A. If -- a rust spot or paint spot, it's
24 not going to give any result with my testing.
25 Q. Now, did you do any testing on the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3147

1 maroon pillow?
2 A. On the pillow case, yes.
3 Q. Okay. That was maroon in color?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And the results of that were
6 what?
7 A. I had three stains from the pillow
8 case, one stain matched Damon Routier, two matched Darlie
9 Routier.
10 Q. Okay. Those were on opposite sides of
11 that pillow, weren't they?
12 A. I don't know. I did not cut the
13 stains from the pillow case.
14 Q. Okay. So you can't tell where they
15 originated?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. And, you tested some samples of the
18 knife, No. 67, I believe it is?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Okay. And the results of that were
21 two, four locations?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. None of which were Devon Routier?
24 A. None of those four stains, that's
25 correct.
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3148

1 Q. And that would be consistent with
2 Devon Routier not having been stabbed with that knife?
3 A. No, that would just be consistent with
4 his blood not being in those four places that were
5 removed for my testing.
6 Q. So, in other words, all of these
7 testings are just somewhat a matter of hit and miss, that
8 you happen to pick up a spot or not pick up a spot that
9 has someone's blood on it?
10 A. Certainly his blood could have been

11 elsewhere on the knife and it was not removed from those
12 four swabbings.
13 Q. But you cannot say with any certainty
14 that his blood was on that knife at all, can you?

15 A. Not from those four swabbings.
16 Q. You do not know?

17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. So, it could be consistent that there
19 was maybe a spot of his blood on that knife, that could
20 be consistent?
21 A. Certainly.
22 Q. And it could be consistent that there
23 was none of his blood on that knife?
24 A. Unless any further testing was done
25 other then mine, yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3149

1 Q. Well, it could be either way, couldn't
2 it?
3 A. From my testing, yes.
4 Q. Well, that is the testing -- that is
5 what we have got, isn't it?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Okay. Any other testing done on that
8 knife that you know of?
9 A. Not in my laboratory.
10 Q. What about that you know of? Do you
11 know of any other testing done on the blood samples on

12 the knife at all?
13 A. I don't know of any other.
14 Q. Okay. We don't know one way or
15 another then, and you have no ability to tell this jury
16 that Devon Routier's blood was on that knife?
17 A. Not from my four tests, no.
18 Q. Well, and that is the extent of your
19 knowledge, isn't it?
20 A. As far as the knife is concerned?
21 Q. Yes.

22 A. Yes.
23 Q. But, however you want to slice it, all
24 the evidence that you were able to pick up and analyze
25 was that Devon Routier's blood was not on that knife?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3150

1 A. Devon Routier's blood was not
2 contained in those four spots that were removed for my
3 testing.
4 Q. All right.
5
6 THE COURT: I think we have covered
7 the knife. Please, let's move on.
8 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: That's all.
9
10
11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
12
13 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
14 Q. Ms. Floyd, just two questions.
15 Besides the facial hair, were there any other
16 unidentified samples which you tested?
17 A. There was a pubic hair which I tested,
18 and no result was obtained from that hair.
19 Q. I guess I'm talking about samples
20 where you actually got a result that you could report out
21 any other unidentified samples?
22 A. No other samples.
23 Q. When the items that you were to test,
24 when they came over from SWIFS, were they separated from
25 each other?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3151

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay.
3

4 MR. GREG DAVIS: No further questions.
5
6
7 RECROSS EXAMINATION
8
9 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
10 Q. On those pubic hairs, you had known

11 samples of Darlie Routier's pubic hairs, didn't you?
12 A. No, I did not.
13 Q. You did not? Did you have any known
14 samples of any pubic hair?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Well, you knew, but you knew Darlie
17 Routier's DNA pattern? Or numbers, however -- whatever
18 you want to call that.
19 A. Her D1S80 type, yes.
20 Q. Right. And were you able to see --
21 were you able to have enough of the pubic hair to run a
22 DS180 test on that pubic hair?
23 A. From the unknown specimen that I
24 received?
25 Q. Right.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3152

1 A. There was a root, and therefore, that
2 is the portion that contains the DNA and it may have
3 issued a result, it may not. Hair gives a success rate
4 of about 60 percent.
5 Q. And yours was no result?

6 A. On that pubic hair, yes.
7 Q. So from that pubic hair, it, at least
8 for now, remains unidentified?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And, when you have NR on a test, or
11 your no result, that means on the test you ran, there was
12 no result?
13 A. That means no bands were generated.

14 No bands were visualized from the final product. That's
15 correct.
16 Q. And then you mentioned sometimes that
17 you would run second or third or more repeats?
18 A. Sometimes if you re-amplify a portion
19 of that particular specimen, it may give a result. It
20 may not.
21 Q. On the pubic hair you just ran the

22 ones -- on the two pubic hairs, on the root and the
23 shaft, you ran the one test?
24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. With no result?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3153

1 A. That's correct
2
3 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: That's all I
4 have.
5 MR. GREG DAVIS: No further questions.
6 THE COURT: You may step down, ma'am.
7 Let's take a 10 minute break, please.
8 All right. Thank you for coming.
9 Watch your step off.
10
11 (Whereupon, a short

12 Recess was taken,
13 After which time,

14 The proceedings were
15 Resumed on the record,
16 In the presence and

17 Hearing of the defendant
18 And the jury, as follows:)
19

20 THE COURT: All right. Let's bring
21 our next witness in.
22 All right. Are both sides ready to
23 bring the jury back in and resume?
24 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. The State
25 is ready.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3154

1 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir.
2 Defense is ready.
3 THE COURT: All right. Bring the jury
4 in, please.
5
6 (Whereupon, the jury

7 Was returned to the
8 Courtroom, and the
9 Proceedings were

10 Resumed on the record,
11 In open court, in the
12 Presence and hearing
13 Of the defendant,
14 As follows:)
15

16 THE COURT: All right. Be seated,
17 please. Let the record reflect that all parties in the
18 trial are present and the jury is seated.
19 All right. Ma'am, if you will raise
20 your right hand, please?
21
22
23 (Whereupon, the witness

24 Was duly sworn by the
25 Court, to speak the truth,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3155

1 The whole truth and
2 Nothing but the truth,
3 After which, the

4 Proceedings were
5 Resumed as follows:)
6
7 THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or
8 affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
10 help you God?
11 THE WITNESS: I do.
12 THE COURT: You have testified many
13 times before and you understand the Rule of Evidence; is
14 that correct?
15 THE WITNESS: I do.
16 THE COURT: You are now under it. All
17 right. Ma'am, if you will state your name and spell your
18 name for the court reporter, please.
19 THE WITNESS: Carolyn Van Winkle,
20 V-A-N W-I-N-K-L-E.
21 THE COURT: Okay. You need speak
22 right into that microphone there.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
24 MR. GREG DAVIS: Thank you.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3156

1 Whereupon,
2
3 CAROLYN VAN WINKLE,
4
5 Was called as a witness, for the State of Texas, having
6 been first duly sworn by the Court to speak the truth,

7 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in
8 open court, as follows:
9
10
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION
12
13 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
14 Q. Ms. Van Winkle, would you please tell
15 us how you are employed?
16 A. I am employed at the Institute of
17 Forensic Sciences in Dallas, as a forensic DNA analyst.
18 Q. Okay. How long have you been with

19 SWIFS?
20 A. Since January of 1986.
21 Q. All right. How long have you been a
22 DNA analyst?
23 A. We began doing DNA analysis at the
24 laboratory in 1991.
25 Q. All right. And before you began doing
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3157

1 DNA, what were you doing at SWIFS?
2 A. I was a forensic serologist, dealing
3 mostly with blood and body fluids in criminal cases at
4 that time.

5 Q. All right. Would you give us a little
6 bit more detail of your educational and professional
7 background, please.
8 A. I have a Bachelor of Science Degree.
9 I am a medical technologist registered by the American
10 Society of Clinical Pathologists. I'm also a registered
11 Specialist in Blood Bank Technology with the American
12 Association of Blood Banks.
13 I began my training doing DNA analysis
14 at the FBI Academy. I have had other training at
15 Cellmark, one of the first laboratories in this country
16 to do DNA analytical methods.
17 I also was a visiting scientist
18 working on standards used nationwide for forensic DNA
19 analytical methods, at the National Institute of
20 Standards and Technology in Gaithersburg, Maryland.
21 I have had numerous graduate course
22 work in molecular biology, biochemistry, advanced
23 genetics, biostatistics and numerous other meetings and
24 seminars and so forth.
25 Q. All right. What are your present
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3158

1 duties at SWIFS?
2 A. Presently, we do all of the DNA
3 analysis requested through the crime laboratory. These
4 are criminal cases, whether they are rapes, assaults,
5 homicides, body identifications, paternity, all criminal
6 cases.
7 Q. Okay. How many years have you been
8 doing the DNA analysis?
9 A. Since 1991.
10 Q. At SWIFS how many people actually work
11 within the DNA section?
12 A. We have two that do the DNA analytical
13 methods full time for court. We also have a technician
14 that works for us.
15 Q. In an average year out there at SWIFS,
16 how many cases are referred to you for DNA analysis?

17 A. We have between 100 and 200 a year.
18 Q. And you personally, how many cases

19 have you actually handled where you did the DNA analysis?
20 A. Over 200.
21 Q. All right. And have you testified
22 previously in cases involving DNA?
23 A. I have.
24 Q. Approximately, how many times have you
25 testified in cases involving DNA?
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3159

1 A. Many times. I would say, 40, 50 in
2 that amount.
3 Q. Okay. When a case comes to you, is it
4 often a situation where you are going to have more than
5 one sample involved in that particular case that you need
6 to do DNA analysis on?
7 A. Yes, that's correct. You need a
8 sample to compare whatever evidence you are looking at
9 to.
10 Q. Okay. In this particular case, were
11 several items submitted to you for DNA analysis?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. And, did you, in fact, did you collect
14 some items yourself for DNA analysis in this case?
15 A. Some were collected from the evidence
16 by me, yes.
17 Q. Did you receive other items from the
18 medical examiner's office?

19 A. I did.
20 Q. Did you receive some items from the
21 Rowlett Police Department?

22 A. I did.
23 Q. Did you receive other items from
24 Charles Linch?
25 A. I don't believe any of the analytical
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3160

1 tests I did on this case I did.
2 Q. How about Kathryn Long?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. What kinds of DNA tests does SWIFS
5 presently do?
6 A. We do two types of methods on forensic
7 cases. That being PCR or polymerase chain reaction and
8 RFLP or restriction fragment length polymorphism.
9 Q. Okay. In your PCR testing that you
10 presently do, do you do DQ-Alpha?
11 A. That is one of the systems we do, yes.
12 Q. Are you presently beginning to get
13 ready to do D1S80 testing out there at SWIFS, also?
14 A. Yes. We have been in the process of
15 validating that for a while.
16 Q. Okay. And up to this date though, you
17 don't, you are not quite ready to begin the actual D1S80
18 testing out there; is that right?
19 A. We have not done it on case work,
20 that's correct.
21 Q. Okay. When these samples came into

22 you originally, Ms. Van Winkle, what sort of testing did
23 you perform on them? The RFLP or the DQ-Alpha?
24 A. Initially, since there was quite a

25 volume of samples that were requiring testing, DQ-Alpha
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3161

1 was performed. And the reason that was tested, was
2 because the three individuals whose blood would have been
3 present were different DQ-Alpha types. It was rapid and
4 it was a way to screen the evidence initially.
5 Q. Okay. Does RFLP testing take longer
6 than DQ-Alpha?
7 A. It does.
8 Q. So initially you did DQ-Alpha. Did
9 you later go back with these samples and do RFLP testing,
10 also?
11 A. Yes, on many of the samples I did.

12 Q. Okay. What was the purpose of going
13 back with the RFLP?
14 A. The RFLP testing is actually more

15 discriminating, the set of loci that we look at is
16 extremely discriminating, greater than 99.9 percent of
17 the individuals. It is the most discriminating test.
18 So in order to rule out the
19 possibility of any other banding pattern or any other
20 possible contributor of the blood that was done.
21 Q. Okay. In this case, do you know

22 approximately how many DNA analyses that you have
23 actually performed on the samples given to you?

24 A. I do. In this particular case, it was
25 over 100 analyses done.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3162

1 Q. Okay. And how does that compare with
2 the average case that comes out there to you from the
3 DA's office?
4 A. Well, considerably more. The majority
5 of our cases are sexual assault cases. In a typical
6 sexual assault case, we will have three samples; one from
7 the victim, one from the accused and one from the
8 evidence.
9 Q. When a sample comes to you for
10 testing, can you walk us through what happens to that
11 sample.
12 Let's say I am a police officer and I
13 bring a sample out there to you. And I say, I want that
14 tested for DNA. What would you do with that sample?

15 A. Initially, the officer will hand
16 deliver that as a rule. It would be given a specific

17 number, based on that victim and that offense. That is a
18 number called our FL number. And that number stays with
19 the case throughout the case. Each item of evidence is
20 then given another number, usually it's an accession
21 number, one through however many pieces of evidence there
22 are.
23 Q. So, if I -- let's say I bring five
24 items out there. They are all different items. Would
25 you then, let's say, I have got five different socks, for
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3163

1 instance. And I say, I want these tested. Would you
2 then number the socks 1 through 5?
3 A. That would be a common way of doing
4 it, yes. Unless, for instance, they were packaged in one
5 bag, and then they may be numbered a little differently.
6 Q. Okay. So if it came out there, you
7 have got one 1 through 5, and then let's say that you,
8 off of that, let's say I am a serologist and I have
9 already taken two samples that I want you testing off of
10 each one of those socks.
11 Would you then list that as T-1 and
12 T-2 off of each sock?
13 A. Yes, for instance, that would be 1,
14 T-1 and T-2, 2, T-1 and T-2, and so forth.
15 Q. Okay. After you have already numbered
16 these samples that I give you, what is the next thing you
17 would do with them?
18 A. Then once the samples are taken or
19 identified on the item of evidence, they are cut out and
20 then they are packaged separately. They are wrapped in
21 something similar to a wax paper and then packaged in a
22 manila envelope and stored frozen.
23 Q. How do you prevent cross-contamination
24 between samples?
25 A. Each utensil that is used in the
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1 cutting out procedure is cleaned or is used, for
2 instance, sometimes we may use a sterile blade that is
3 used once and discarded.
4 Again, that would depend on the
5 sample. The sample is then wrapped separately, placed in
6 the manila envelope and, of course, the whole time, the
7 sample would be dried.
8 Q. Okay. How long does it take to run
9 the DQ-Alpha test and actually get a result back?
10 A. If we are doing just that, we can
11 complete that testing in a couple of days.
12 Q. How about for RFLP, how long does it
13 take to run that test?
14 A. To do the routine amount of -- that we
15 look at which is for -- normally that is anywhere from
16 four to eight weeks.
17 Q. All right. So two days for DQ-Alpha,
18 about four to eight weeks for RFLP, right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And when you are looking at the
21 results for DQ-Alpha, what do you actually look at to

22 determine whether or not you have got a match or not?
23 A. That type of testing used is what's

24 called a reverse dot blot and basically all you are doing
25 is looking at a color change on the dots.
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1 The dots being representative of the
2 alleles that you are looking at. So you are just
3 comparing the dots and what lights up. It's called
4 lights up, it's just a color change.
5 Q. Okay. And so you have got a known
6 where these alleles have lighted up, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When you are looking at the unknown
9 from the alleles that have lighted up, do you expect
10 those then to correspond in position?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. How about RFLP, how do you read the
13 results there?
14 A. On RFLP, what you are looking at is
15 similar to an x-ray film where you have a series of bar

16 code looking lanes. Those are our ladders, our standards
17 that we put on those gels, and we compare the banding
18 pattern that's between those bar code looking lanes. We
19 compare it first visually, and then we do a computer
20 imaging or sizing and actually size it and compare it.
21 Q. In this case, Ms. Van Winkle, did you
22 receive blood samples identified as coming from the
23 defendant, Darlie Routier, Darin Routier, Damon Routier
24 and Devon Routier?
25 A. Yes, from the medical examiner I
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1 received Damon and Devon, and drew the blood samples on
2 Darlie and Darin.
3 Q. Okay. So the defendant's blood and
4 that of Darin Routier were actually drawn there at SWIFS;
5 is that right?
6 A. They were.
7 Q. Did you also receive several blood
8 samples identified as having come from the defendant's
9 T-shirt?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you also receive several blood
12 samples identified as having come from insides 5801 Eagle
13 Drive?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did you also receive several blood
16 samples from other individual items identified as having
17 come from 5801 Eagle Drive?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Let me go through some of the
20 individual items first with you. And I'm going to use
21 your SWIFS number. Would that be the best way to
22 identify it for you?
23 A. That would be easiest, yes.
24 Q. All right. Did you receive a window
25 screen, which will be SWIFS item No. 1?
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1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. All right. And on that window screen,
3 did you attempt to perform DNA analysis?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What was the result?
6 A. Stains are -- stains that reacted
7 presumptively with our reagent were taken off the screen.
8 And they were actually performed a DNA extraction on. In
9 other words, DNA that would have been there was
10 extracted. There was no human DNA detectable at all.

11 Q. Okay. Which means what to you as a
12 DNA analyst?
13 A. There was no human blood present.
14 Q. No human blood, that is the window
15 screen item No. 1?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the window,

18 which will be SWIFS item No. 47. What were the results
19 there?
20 A. On that item I also took off or taken
21 off was approximately five stains. Those again were done
22 a DNA extraction on and there was no human DNA present.
23 Q. Okay. Well, if you take, for
24 instance, insect blood, will human DNA extract out of
25 insect blood?
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1 A. It will not.
2 Q. Let me ask you next about a green and
3 plaid wash cloth, item No. 29?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. What were the DNA results
6 there?
7 A. The DNA types that were obtained from
8 the wash cloth were consistent with Darlie.
9 Q. With Darlie Routier?
10 A. Routier, yes.
11 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you about a
12 white dish towel. This will be SWIFS item No. 30. What
13 were your results?
14 A. The types were consistent with Darlie
15 Routier.
16 Q. Darlie Routier. I want to talk about
17 two green and white plaid dish towels. These will be

18 SWIFS item No. 28. Were you able to get a result from
19 items 28?
20 A. I was not.
21 Q. Let me ask you now about a
22 multicolored comforter. This is SWIFS item No. 18. What
23 were your results?
24 A. The type on that comforter was
25 consistent with Devon Routier.
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1 Q. Now, let me ask you about a green
2 blanket, SWIFS item No. 21.
3 A. The DNA from that item was consistent
4 with Damon Routier.
5 Q. The green blanket, Damon Routier?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, the blue blanket which is item
8 No. 26?
9 A. The blue blanket with stains
10 consistent with Darlie Routier.
11 Q. All right. Now, I would like to ask
12 you about blue jeans which were identified as Damon

13 Routier's blue jeans, item No. 25. What were the
14 results?
15 A. Stains from the right leg, back and
16 front, were consistent with Darlie Routier and Damon
17 Routier.

18 Q. Okay. Did you then have two mixtures
19 actually?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Where both individual's blood is
22 present in the mixture; is that correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. How many samples did you have on the
25 jeans?
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1 A. The one that had these results was one
2 from the front and one from the back of the right leg.
3 Q. The back and front right leg?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. How about item No. 13, that is Damon
6 Routier's T-shirt?
7 A. From that item, the stain was
8 consistent with Damon Routier and Darlie Routier.
9 Q. Okay. Again, a mixture?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. No. 68, a black baseball cap with
12 Planet Hollywood logo on the front?
13 A. Stains consistent with Darlie Routier.
14 Q. A vacuum cleaner, item No. 69?
15 A. Several stains consistent with Darlie
16 Routier.
17 Q. Do you recall how many stains?
18 A. Four were tested.
19 Q. Okay. Four, all Darlie Routier?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Okay. A rug, item No. 70. What were
22 your results?
23 A. Seven stains were tested, all Darlie
24 Routier.
25 Q. Now, on item No. 3, I'll refer to
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1 these as Devon Routier's shorts?
2 A. Stain consistent with Devon Routier.
3 Q. Two items, which I am going to refer
4 to as Devon Routier pillow and pillow case, the Power
5 Ranger pillow and pillow case. What were your results?
6 A. On the pillow, stain consistent with
7 Darlie Routier.
8 Q. Okay. The pillow, Darlie Routier?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. How about the pillow case?
11 A. Oh, one stain was consistent with
12 Devon Routier, the other one Darlie.

13 Q. Okay. That's going to be SWIFS No. 3,
14 also; is that correct?
15 A. Three.
16 Q. Three also. Okay. So we had pillow
17 and pillow case, still with the SWIFS No. 3.
18 The pillow is Darlie Routier, the
19 pillow case is Devon Routier on one and Darlie Routier on
20 the other, right?
21 A. And Darlie and Devon on the other one,
22 yes. That's correct.
23 Q. Okay. So Darlie and Devon. So one is
24 pure Devon and one a mixture?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Okay. A black and white blanket, this
2 is again item No. 3, referred to as Devon blanket. What
3 was the result there?
4 A. Two stains consistent with Devon
5 Routier.
6 Q. How about an item No. 2, a knife?
7 A. The stains in the handle of the knife
8 from -- was consistent, by DQ-Alpha only with Darlie and
9 one of the boys.
10 Q. Okay. Was that the handle?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And what are the blood types?
13 A. It was a DQ-Alpha type. And that
14 particular type was the type consistent with Darlie
15 Routier and one of the boys' types.
16 Q. Okay. Was that a mixture?
17 A. It was.
18 Q. Okay. So it's Darlie. And can you
19 tell from that DQ-Alpha testing which of the two boys was
20 the contributor on that mixture?
21 A. From that particular stain, no. On
22 item 63 through 65, yes.
23 Q. Okay. Where did items 63 through 65
24 come from?
25 A. They were submitted from J.P. Howell.
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1 Q. Okay. Did they also originate from
2 the knife, item No. 2?
3 A. They did.
4 Q. Okay. Did they originate from another
5 part of the knife then?
6 A. Three different areas of the knife,
7 yes.
8 Q. Okay. What areas did they come from?
9 A. 63 originated from the blade tip.
10 Q. Okay. Let's start with No. 63. What
11 was your result there?
12 A. Consistent with Damon and Darlie.
13 Q. Damon and Darlie on the tip. Where
14 did 64 come from?
15 A. 64 was lower on the blade, toward the
16 handle.
17 Q. Okay. What was your result there?
18 A. Darlie Routier.
19 Q. And where did No. 65 come from?
20 A. It was another area on the handle.
21 RFLP pattern consistent with Darlie Routier.
22 Q. 65 from the handle?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. That's Darlie Routier?
25 A. That's correct.
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1 Q. Did you receive an item No. 27, a
2 sock?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. What were your results there?
5 A. One stain from the sock consistent
6 with Damon and Devon Routier. Additional stain from the
7 sock with Devon Routier only.
8 Q. So, one mixture of Damon and Devon,
9 and then one pure Devon, is that right?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Ms. Van Winkle, let me show you
12 State's Exhibit No. 122. Do you recognize this diagram?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Have you had a chance to look at it
15 prior to your testimony today?
16 A. I have.
17 Q. Have I asked you to go through the
18 blood samples shown on this board and initial the samples
19 that you have tested?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Have I also asked you to look at the
22 results reported out on this board to determine whether
23 or not they are accurate or not?
24 A. You have.
25 Q. Okay. Have you initialed the samples
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1 that you tested and have you also verified that the
2 results shown here on the board are in fact correct and
3 they correspond with your findings after your testing?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Ms. Van Winkle, also have I had you
6 look at State's Exhibits 120 and 121 prior to your
7 testimony today?
8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Have I asked you also, with regards to
10 this, to initial the samples that you tested from the
11 T-shirt front, both front and back?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Have you done that?
14 A. I have.
15 Q. Have you also verified that the result
16 shown here on the board, in fact is correct, and it

17 corresponds with the findings of your DNA analysis?
18 A. Yes.
19
20 MR. GREG DAVIS: Your Honor, at this
21 time we will offer State's Exhibit 120, 121, 120-A,
22 120-B, 120-C, 121-A and State's Exhibit 122.

23 THE COURT: Any objection?
24 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Yes, your Honor.
25 May we approach the bench?
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1 THE COURT: You may.
2
3 (Whereupon, a short
4 Discussion was held

5 Off the record, after
6 Which time the
7 Proceedings were resumed
8 As follows:)
9
10 THE COURT: For record purposes, why
11 don't we just take them one at a time, so we keep the
12 record clear.
13 MR. GREG DAVIS: Okay. Yes, sir.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Okay, your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Just for the record, you
17 are now viewing State's Exhibits what?
18 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Yes, Your Honor,
19 we're viewing State's Exhibit Nos. 121-A and 121. And
20 again, we would re-urge our objection.
21 The State has failed to establish a
22 proper chain of custody as to the T-shirt from which

23 these various blood samples were obtained.
24 They haven't -- there is a break in
25 the link. In fact, they have not brought all of the
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1 links in the chain. And specifically, they have not
2 brought paramedic Zimmerman, who handled this shirt,
3 apparently put it into a bag.
4 Our argument, your Honor, and
5 objection is that the shirt has been contaminated and
6 there has been no showing made to the jury of the

7 condition that the shirt was in, how it was folded, how
8 the stains were positioned on the shirt prior to the time
9 as received by Mr. Zimmerman and at the time that they
10 were subsequently received by the crime lab.
11 Furthermore, your Honor, there is no
12 indication as to how the particular shirt was packaged,
13 or whether or not there were other items in the package
14 at the time.
15 There has been testimony before the

16 Court that there were other clothing by other victims.
17 We would submit that there has been a showing of

18 contamination of this particular exhibit, which is
19 State's Exhibit No. 25 from which the State subsequently
20 obtained various samples which were subsequently
21 submitted to DNA testing.
22 So based on those reasons, plus the
23 other reasons that we objected to the admission into

24 evidence of the samples themselves, namely, all of the
25 samples obtained from State's Exhibit 25, we would object
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1 to the admission into evidence of this particular
2 exhibit.
3 THE COURT: All right. And for the
4 record, you are objecting on the grounds stated, to

5 State's Exhibit No. 120, 120-A, 120-B and 120-C; and
6 State's Exhibits 121 and 121-A; is that correct?
7 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Yes, sir, all of the
8 photographs on that one board.
9 THE COURT: All right. Overruled.

10 State's Exhibit 120, 120-A, B and C; and State's Exhibit
11 121 and 121-A are admitted. Let's get --
12
13 (Whereupon, the above

14 Mentioned items were
15 Received in evidence
16 As State's Exhibit

17 Numbers 120, 120-A, 120-B,
18 And 120-C, and 121 and 121-A,
19 For all purposes, after
20 Which time, the

21 Proceedings were
22 Resumed on the record,
23 In open court,

24 As follows:)
25
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1 MR. JOHN HAGLER: In addition, your
2 Honor, we would submit that due to the contamination of
3 that exhibit that the confusing and prejudicial effect

4 vastly outweighs any probative value that the exhibit may
5 have.
6 THE COURT: Overruled. Can we see
7 that? Let's go on State's Exhibit No. 121 -- 122 rather.
8 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir, 122.
9 THE COURT: 122. Now, this is the
10 next one, right?
11 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Again, your Honor,
12 we would simply re-urge all those objections that we
13 voiced to the admission of evidence obtained from State's
14 Exhibit No. 25, and submit they have not shown a proper
15 chain of custody under Rule 901-A.
16 THE COURT: All right. Overruled.
17 State's Exhibit 122 is admitted.
18
19 (Whereupon, the above

20 mentioned item was
21 received in evidence
22 as State's Exhibit
23 Number 122, for all
24 purposes, after

25 which time, the
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1 proceedings were
2 resumed on the record,
3 in open court,
4 as follows:)
5
6 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Finally, your Honor,
7 again, as to the last exhibit, that objection included
8 all of the objections that we have voiced in relation to
9 evidence of the exhibits arising out of State's Exhibit
10 No. 25.
11 THE COURT: Fine. That will be noted
12 in the record.
13 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Furthermore, we
14 would object, your Honor, in addition to the exhibits, we
15 would also object to any testimony this witness may have
16 as to the results of the testing of these exhibits and
17 also, all of the exhibits obtained by State's Exhibit No.
18 25.
19 THE COURT: Fine. Overruled.

20 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Can we have a
21 continuing objection, your Honor?
22 THE COURT: Continuing objection, you
23 have it. Anything else?
24 MR. JOHN HAGLER: No, your Honor.

25 THE COURT: Thank you. All right.
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1 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Let's move right along.
3 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir.
4
5 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
6 Q. Ms. Van Winkle, as we look at State's
7 Exhibit 122, the names down here at the bottom, do they

8 reflect, we have just color coded the blood results, have
9 we not?
10 A. Yes, that is correct.
11 Q. So would it be fair to say that the
12 DNA result, coming back to Damon would be a red and
13 Darlie would be a green and to Devon would be a yellow?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. So, that wherever we see green on this
16 board, does that reflect a DNA result that it came back
17 as a match to Darlie Routier?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. Where we see a yellow, would that be a
20 DNA match back to Devon Routier?

21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Finally, a red result would be a
23 match, DNA-wise, with Damon Routier, is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. If we come through here, beginning in
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1 the utility room, for instance, we see three stains,
2 correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. One on the floor and two on the ball
5 cap here, just for example, these came back to who?
6 A. To Darlie Routier.
7 Q. Now, did you also test here in the
8 sink area?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And, your results there would be shown
11 here; is that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Let me ask you about the two in
14 particular where we have half of it is green and then we
15 have quarters of yellow and red. What do those
16 particular results reflect there?
17 A. There were two particular stains, one
18 of which was on the handle of that sink and one of which
19 was in the bottom of the sink, both fairly faint stains.
20 They did -- the primary type was Darlie's type. There
21 was a faint type 3 which could have been contributed by
22 either Damon or Devon.
23 Q. The samples listed as 70 here on this
24 rug, those are who?
25 A. Those are Darlie.
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1 Q. The item 69 here with the vacuum
2 cleaner, those are whose?
3 A. Those are Darlie's.
4 Q. On the kitchen floor here, with the RM
5 and RH designation, those are who?
6 A. Those are Darlie.
7 Q. Again, along the wall here in the
8 kitchen near the light switch?
9 A. Yes, those are Darlie.
10 Q. This up here on the kitchen bar area?
11 A. Darlie.
12 Q. And, then a designation for the green
13 and white plaid rag there, item No. 29?
14 A. Darlie.
15 Q. Along the wall here in the hallway as
16 well as the family room?

17 A. Darlie.
18 Q. Where we have represented Damon
19 Routier here on the carpeted area?

20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. That would be Damon; is that right?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Okay. Then we have on his T-shirt and
24 on his blue jeans, we have half green and half red. Do
25 those reflect the mixtures that you testified about?
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1 A. They do.
2 Q. On the couch here, items 52, 53 and
3 54?
4 A. Darlie.
5 Q. The two samples here on the cut out
6 carpet behind this couch?

7 A. Darlie.
8 Q. The two samples here on the carpet by
9 the chair?
10 A. Darlie.
11 Q. Again, on the carpet near the chair,
12 105s?
13 A. I don't believe I tested those, but
14 those --
15 Q. -- reflect Darlie also?
16 A. Reflect Darlie.
17 Q. Okay. Now, in the area where we have
18 represented Devon Routier, the shorts were his, correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And you had two off the black and
21 white blanket came back to him; is that right?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. On the pillow case here, and on the
24 pillow and pillow case, we had one Darlie, one Devon and
25 then one mixture; is that right?
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1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. The carpet area by Devon?
3 A. Darlie.
4 Q. And then finally, in this area between
5 the two couches, on the green blanket we had Damon?
6 A. Damon, I'm sorry.
7 Q. Damon Routier?

8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. On the blue blanket we had?
10 A. Darlie.
11 Q. Coming from this couch in this
12 position, we had a mixture; is that right?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Of Damon and Darlie Routier; is that
15 right?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Over here on the arm of this couch
18 near the windows, we had a Damon; is that right?
19 A. Damon, correct.
20 Q. And, finally, on the handprint that
21 came out of the carpet, that was Damon; is that right?
22 A. The print itself was Damon, that's
23 correct.
24 Q. And the green dot, indicated right
25 here next to that handprint, what does that represent?
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1 A. Adjacent to the area of the handprint
2 was a soaked through stain of Darlie.
3 Q. So we have Damon's blood in this
4 portion of the den by the couch and we also find his
5 blood on this portion where his body was; is that right?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Now, Ms. Van Winkle, looking at the

8 T-shirt, again, we have used the same color coding; is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where Damon Routier will be
12 represented in red?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Darlie Routier will be represented in
15 green?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And, finally, Devon Routier will be
18 represented in yellow; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Ms. Van Winkle, for the samples that
21 you tested where you actually got a result that you could
22 report out, did you have any unidentified samples?
23 A. Other than the three individuals, no.
24 Q. So, if you tested and you got a
25 result, they either came back to Damon, Darlie or Devon
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1 Routier; is that right?
2 A. That's correct.
3
4 MR. GREG DAVIS: I'll pass the
5 witness.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Mulder. All right.
7 Thank you.
8
9
10 CROSS EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
13 Q. Ms. Van Winkle, did you do any DNA
14 testing with respect to the pubic hair that was recovered
15 out there at the Routier residence?

16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. That was sent over to Gene Screen; is
18 that right?
19 A. I don't have any direct knowledge of
20 that, no.
21 Q. Have you reviewed Gene Screen's
22 findings?
23 A. No, I have not.
24 Q. Who would know about that evidence?
25 Whatever went to Gene Screen came through y'all, didn't
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1 it?
2 A. Through the laboratory, not through
3 me.
4 Q. Yes, ma'am. But either, as I recall
5 what Ms. Floyd testified to, she said she either got the
6 evidence from Ms. Van Winkle, that would be you?
7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Or Ms. Floyd, would be your partner, I
9 mean, that was Ms. Floyd or Mr. Linch?
10 A. Normally, he does the trace analysis,
11 the hair-type evidence. I deal with the blood and the
12 body fluid evidence.
13 Q. Okay. So you don't have any idea why
14 pubic hair was not given to you first, I guess, and was
15 sent over to Gene Screen?
16 A. I don't have any direct knowledge of
17 that, no.
18 Q. But that is Mr. Linch's area of
19 expertise, is it not?
20 A. As far as which part of it? As far as
21 microscopically identifying it?
22 Q. Yes, hair analysis.
23 A. That part of the hair analysis, yes.
24 Q. Okay. Now, as I understand your
25 testimony, you are telling this jury that you did your
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1 various analysis on the knife, butcher knife. You only
2 had one knife, didn't you?
3 A. That had blood on it, yes.
4 Q. Yes, ma'am. And you are telling this
5 jury that you did your analysis on that knife, on the tip
6 of the knife, several places on the blade of the knife
7 and on the handle of the knife; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And you are telling the jury

10 that you have no evidence that Devon's blood was ever on
11 that knife. Is that fair to say?

12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Okay. No question about that, is
14 there?
15 A. From the samples I tested?
16 Q. Yes, ma'am.
17 A. Which were limited and was not all of
18 the blood on the knife.
19 Q. Well --
20 A. There was no evidence of Devon's
21 blood.
22 Q. Okay. Well, you had access to all of
23 these exhibits and were able to take samples from
24 wherever you desired, were you not?
25 A. Are you referring to the knife?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3190

1 Q. No, I'm referring to all of the
2 exhibits.
3 A. Basically, yes. That would be a fair
4 statement.
5 Q. Okay. And, for example, do your
6 records reflect how many dish towels, wash cloths, dish
7 rags, whatever you want to call them, came into your
8 laboratory?
9 A. They do perhaps, but I have not sat
10 down and counted them.
11 Q. Would you do that please?
12
13 THE COURT: Mr. Mulder, I think Ms.
14 Van Winkle --
15
16 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
17 Q. Ms. Van Winkle, how many towels do you
18 find?
19 A. Towels and rags, approximately 21, if
20 I counted correctly.
21 Q. Approximately 21?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How many of those were tested by you?
24 A. By myself as far as DNA analysis?
25 Q. Yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3191

1 A. Only the ones we spoke of earlier.
2 Q. All right. Now, I believe you said
3 you did some green plaid towels?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Would these be the plaid towels?
6 A. They would be item No. 28.

7 Q. Okay. And, these tests you have are
8 very sensitive, aren't they?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Matter of fact, I think it's
11 been said here in Court that you could actually analyze
12 the --
13
14 THE COURT: Would you mind standing,
15 please, Mr. Mulder?
16 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I don't mind a
17 bit, Judge. I have got to bend over to pick this stuff
18 up, unless you would like to have somebody --
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: What's your
21 pleasure? I want to make you happy.
22 THE COURT: Well, I would rather have
23 you stand, if you would. I mean, there are several
24 people who can pick it up for you.
25 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All right. I
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3192

1 don't mind. If one of y'all will get this for me, but
2 don't bend down when you get it.
3 THE COURT: The sidebar comments are
4 unnecessary.
5 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All right.
6 THE COURT: So please stand.
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: All right.
8 THE COURT: Thank you.
9
10 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
11 Q. You made the selection as to where to
12 make this analysis?
13 A. Actually, the serologist cut those
14 stains out, Kathryn Long.
15 Q. Kathryn Long did?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. You testified -- are you saying there
18 isn't any blood on these towels?

19 A. No, I am not.
20 Q. Okay. It appears to have blood on
21 them, doesn't it?
22 A. Yes, it does have blood on them.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. On the towels, yes.
25 Q. But your analysis was inconclusive?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3193

1 A. There was no amplification product or
2 banding pattern obtained from the stains on those towels.
3 Q. Did you go back to check on other
4 portions of the towels?
5 A. Another stain from the towel itself,
6 each of those towels was not taken, no.
7 Q. Okay. I mean, why was that?
8 A. Well, it just wasn't repeated, that
9 testing.
10 Q. Okay. So you are telling the jury
11 that there is blood on these towels?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. You just don't know whose blood?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Okay. Now, likewise, as I understood
16 your report on direct examination, you said that you
17 found Darlie's blood in the sink and you found, also in
18 the sink, blood consistent with the boys' blood?
19 A. On two areas of the sink, there was

20 primarily her DQ-Alpha type, consistent with Darlie, and
21 a very faint additional type.
22 Q. Okay. And you are telling the jury
23 that you can't tell which of the boys' blood was in the
24 sink?

25 A. That's correct. That faint additional
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3194

1 type could have originated from either.
2 Q. All right. It could have been
3 either -- it could have been both, it could have been
4 either one; is that right?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. And you can't tell from your testing?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And didn't do any further tests?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Okay. Do you know if they tested, if
11 you received any samples from the counter where the blood
12 was located and the knife was recovered?
13 A. Not to my knowledge, no.
14 Q. That appears to be blood there,
15 doesn't it, on the counter?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. But that was not tested, is
18 that what you are telling us?
19 A. To my knowledge, I did not test that,
20 no.
21 Q. Okay. And these particular places in
22 the carpet where blood was detected by you and analyzed
23 by you and determined to be Darlie's or one of the boys
24 or whatever; you are not saying that there was another
25 person's blood in that same vicinity, are you?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3195

1 A. If I understand you correctly --
2 Q. Did you test, excuse me, did you test
3 this particular sample? It's identified as State's
4 Exhibit No. 35-E?
5 A. I can't tell where that is from. Just
6 looking at that, I have no idea where that stain is from.
7 Q. Does it appear that a sample has been
8 taken from that?
9 A. I can't tell by looking at that.
10 Q. Okay. It has not been cut out at
11 least, has it?
12 A. I can't tell by looking at that. It
13 could have been.
14 Q. Okay. So, when we have these
15 references -- here, this is, I mean this is rather broad,
16 is it not?
17 A. Well, what do you mean by that?
18 Q. Well, I mean that this, for example,
19 is the area in which Devon Routier's body was recovered.
20 Is that your understanding or do you even know?
21 A. Yes, that is my understanding.
22 Q. Okay. And you found his blood there,
23 naturally; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. And, did you -- was that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3196

1 analyzed from the carpet?
2 A. It was analyzed from the stains that
3 we covered a moment ago.

4 Q. Okay.
5 A. As far as the specific stains that
6 were tested.
7 Q. Okay. Would you refresh my memory
8 then?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Were those carpet --

11 A. Devon in particular?
12 Q. Devon, uh-huh. (Nodding head
13 affirmatively.)
14 A. No.
15 Q. Those were not carpet stains?
16 A. Those were not carpet.
17 Q. Where were those stains taken from?
18 A. There were stains taken from a pillow,
19 a pillow case, a blanket.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. And shorts.
22 Q. All right. And you found his blood on
23 the pillow, right?
24 A. No. The stain that was tested was
25 consistent with Darlie.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3197

1 Q. All right. You found his blood on the
2 pillow case?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was her blood also on the pillow case?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. So, what you are telling us --
7 it's your understanding that his body remained there
8 until it was removed by the medical examiner's people.

9 Is that not your understanding? Do you know anything
10 about that?
11 A. I don't know who removed the body.
12 Q. Okay. If Darlie Routier had been
13 injured, if her throat had been cut and she had been

14 stabbed in the right arm, and was in attendance to this
15 youngster, after she had been injured, you would expect
16 to find her blood in about his location, would you not?
17 A. It's possible, sure.
18 Q. But if it's not possible, but it's
19 likely that you would find her blood there if she had
20 been injured; is that not correct?
21 A. It's possible, yes.

22 Q. Okay. When you say it's -- you know,
23 I noticed when you answered Mr. Davis's questions, you
24 would answer that it was consistent.
25 So, let me ask you that. Is that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3198

1 consistent with her being in attendance to him after she
2 had been injured herself?
3 A. If she was actively bleeding at that
4 time, and the blood was dripping, then that is
5 consistent, yes.
6 Q. Okay. And you are telling us that you
7 did not analyze the carpet by him; is that correct?
8 A. No.
9 Q. That is correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you do an analysis
12 along this area?
13 A. What numbers are those? If you could
14 refresh my memory.
15 Q. Okay. Numbers TB-5 of 6. Oh, I
16 can -- maybe you can know better. TB-5 of 6, 5 of 5.
17 A. Those stains, I did not analyze
18 personally, no.
19 Q. Do you know where those stains were,
20 whether they were on the carpet or on the wall?
21 A. No, I do not.
22 Q. Again, you would expect to find Darlie
23 Routier's blood in conjunction with her son's blood if
24 she had rendered him aid after she herself had been
25 injured, would you not?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3199

1 A. Again --
2 Q. That would be consistent?
3 A. If blood was actively dripping from
4 the wound, that would be consistent.
5 Q. Okay. Now, how many of the white
6 towels did you analyze?
7 A. Of the white ones?
8 Q. Uh-huh. (Attorney nodding head
9 affirmatively).
10 A. I don't know right off. As far as for
11 DNA analysis, I believe it was only our item No. 30.
12 Q. Just one white towel?
13 A. For DNA analysis that I did, yes.

14 Q. Okay. And you received some --
15
16
17 (Whereupon, the following
18 mentioned items were
19 marked for
20 identification only

21 after which time the
22 proceedings were
23 resumed on the record
24 in open court, as
25 follows:)
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3200

1
2 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, some of
3 these are already in evidence, but in the interest of
4 speed, rather than trying to find these, I will just

5 offer these. I will offer into evidence what's been
6 marked for identification and record purposes as
7 Defendant's Exhibits 47, 48, 49, and 50.
8 MR. GREG DAVIS: No objection.
9 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibits 47,
10 48, 49 and 50 are admitted.
11
12 (Whereupon, the above

13 Mentioned items were
14 Received in evidence
15 As Defendant's Exhibit

16 Numbers 47, 48, 49 and 50,
17 For all purposes, after
18 Which time, the

19 Proceedings were
20 Resumed on the record,
21 In open court,

22 As follows:)
23
24 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
25 Q. You will notice that, Ms. Van Winkle,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3201

1 in Defendant's Exhibit No. 48, Defendant's Exhibit No.
2 49, and Defendant's Exhibit No. 47, there are three white
3 towels. Do you see those?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay. Do you know which one you
6 analyzed?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. Right off I do not.
10 Q. Okay. Is there some reason that you
11 didn't analyze -- I know you did 100 analyses, and I
12 realize you have got to draw the line someplace.
13 A. Right.
14 Q. But any reason you didn't analyze the
15 other towels?
16 A. It wasn't specifically requested and
17 it wasn't initially analyzed.
18 Q. Okay. Who makes that determination as
19 to what is to be analyzed and what is not to be analyzed?
20 A. It's usually a joint effort, based on
21 experience and different requests.
22 Q. Between you and the district
23 attorney's office?
24 A. Or the investigators or the medical
25 examiners.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3202

1 Q. So, you, working in conjunction with
2 the police agencies, decide what is to be analyzed and
3 what isn't to be analyzed, basically, is that it?
4 A. Well, that is always part of the
5 decision-making process, yes.

6 Q. Could I see a copy of your notes, the
7 report that you generated?
8 A. The whole file?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. This is just a copy of that.
11 Q. I don't know what I'm going to do with
12 the whole file.
13 A. This is just a copy of the report that
14 you have.
15 Q. Let me just see the whole file.
16 A. All right.
17 Q. I think we have this. Let me look at
18 it. Yeah, let me make sure we have it.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. If we get to a point where you can't
21 answer and you need your notes, just let me know and I
22 will get them for you.
23 As I recall, you said the blue blanket
24 was analyzed and on the blue blanket you found Darlie's
25 blood; is that right?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3203

1 A. I would like my notes to refer to,
2 please.
3 Q. All right. Can you do it with this?
4 A. Sure.

5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Okay. And, the white towel that you
8 analyzed, what number was that?
9 A. It was item No. 30.
10 Q. Okay. That would appear to be a very
11 bloody item. This is 30, is it not?

12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Okay. And, more consistent perhaps
14 with the exhibit -- it's not consistent with what is
15 portrayed in Defendant Exhibit No. 49, is it?

16 A. Well, perhaps if I could -- well, let
17 me look at my file here, and see if it has any clue about
18 where it was from.
19 Q. Okay.
20
21 THE COURT: We will now take a 10
22 minute break. During the break, please get everything
23 out you need to cross examine this witness.
24
25 (Whereupon, a short
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3204

1 Recess was taken,
2 After which time,

3 The proceedings were
4 Resumed on the record,
5 In the presence and
6 Hearing of the defendant
7 And the jury, as follows:)
8
9 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, I don't
10 know who the witnesses are, so I can't prepare in
11 advance.
12 THE COURT: I said this witness.

13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I understand.
14 Well, if I knew who the witnesses were.
15 THE COURT: All right. Well, you know
16 that.
17
18 (Whereupon, a short
19 recess was taken, after
20 which time, the

21 proceedings were
22 resumed in open court,
23 in the presence and
24 hearing of the

25 Defendant, being
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3205

1 represented by her
2 Attorney, in the presence
3 Of the jury as follows:)
4

5 THE COURT: All right. Are both sides
6 ready to bring the jury back in and continue with this
7 witness?
8 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, your Honor, the
9 State is ready.
10 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir, the
11 Defense is ready now.
12 THE COURT: All right. Bring the jury
13 back.
14
15 (Whereupon, the jury

16 Was returned to the
17 Courtroom, and the
18 Proceedings were

19 Resumed on the record,
20 In open court, in the
21 Presence and hearing
22 Of the defendant,
23 As follows:)
24

25 THE COURT: All right. Let the record
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3206

1 reflect that all parties in the trial are present. The
2 jury is seated. Mr. Mulder, you may continue.
3
4 (Whereupon, the following
5 mentioned items were
6 marked for
7 identification only
8 after which time the
9 proceedings were
10 resumed on the record
11 in open court, as
12 follows:)
13
14 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, we will
15 offer into evidence what has been maked for
16 identification and record purposes as Defendant's
17 Exhibits 50, 51, and 52.
18 MR. GREG DAVIS: No objection.
19 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibits 50,
20 51 and 52 are admitted.
21
22 (Whereupon, the items

23 Heretofore mentioned
24 Were received in evidence
25 As Defendant's Exbibit
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3207

1 Nos. 50, 51, and 52
2 For all purposes,
3 After which time, the
4 Proceedings were resumed
5 As follows:)
6
7
8 CROSS EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
9
10 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
11 Q. Did you analyze these Reebok shoes?
12 A. No, I did not.
13 Q. Okay. If there was blood on them you
14 don't know where it was, obviously?
15 A. I have no knowledge, no.
16 Q. Would you expect or would it be

17 consistent, if someone went to that light switch and
18 those are the shoes that we have here, would it be

19 consistent, if they were bleeding, that blood might get
20 on those shoes, given their relative position to the
21 light switch?
22 A. Well, bleeding, they would have to be
23 dripping blood.
24 Q. Do you see --

25 A. Quite a bit.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3208

1 Q. -- any evidence in Defendant's Exhibit
2 No. 52 of blood being dripped?
3 A. It's hard to say looking at the
4 photographs, on testing perhaps that is blood.
5 Q. Okay. You see some red, looks likes a
6 red liquid there in the vicinity of the shoes, do you
7 not? Can you see it on the carpet?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. You see it on the wood?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. So, if someone were dripping

12 blood in that fashion it would be consistent, would it
13 not that they might drip blood on those shoes?
14 A. It's possible, sure.
15 Q. Sure.
16
17
18
19 (Whereupon, the following
20 mentioned item was
21 marked for
22 identification only

23 after which time the
24 proceedings were
25 resumed on the record
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3209

1 in open court, as
2 follows:)
3
4 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
5 Q. Now, the maroon pillow that has been
6 marked for identification for record purposes as
7 Defendant's Exhibit 53; let me show that exhibit to you
8 and ask you whether or not you had had that in your
9 possession at some time?
10 A. I have seen the pillow, yes.
11 Q. Did you do a test on this pillow?
12 A. No, I personally did not. Well, let
13 me rephrase that. I did not cut out the stains on the
14 pillow.
15 Q. Okay. Did you test -- do the testing
16 on the stains?
17 A. Initially, I started testing on the
18 stains, but I did not finish it.
19 Q. All right. But somebody did test
20 them?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. Okay.
23
24 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: We will offer

25 into evidence what has been marked for identification
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3210

1 purposes as Defendant's Exhibit No. 53.
2 MR. GREG DAVIS: No objection.
3 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit 53 is
4 admitted.
5
6 (Whereupon, the above
7 mentioned item was
8 received in evidence
9 as Defendant's Exhibit
10 No. 53, for all

11 Purposes, after
12 which time, the
13 proceedings were

14 resumed on the record,
15 in open court,

16 as follows:)
17
18 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: It was also
19 marked as State's Exhibit No. 92?
20 MR. GREG DAVIS: That is a label that
21 I put on, and you can remove that if you would like. Are
22 you labeling another one as 53-A?
23
24
25 (Whereupon, the following
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3211

1 mentioned item was
2 marked for
3 identification only
4 after which time the
5 proceedings were

6 resumed on the record
7 in open court, as
8 follows:)
9
10
11 MR. MULDER: 53-A, right.
12 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yeah. I've got no
13 objection to that either.
14 THE COURT: All right. Defendant's
15 Exhibit 53-A is admitted.
16
17 (Whereupon, the above

18 mentioned items were
19 received in evidence
20 as Defendant's Exhibit
21 No. 53-A, for all

22 Purposes, after
23 which time, the
24 proceedings were

25 resumed on the record,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3212

1 in open court,
2 as follows:)
3
4 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
5 Q. The rug that you were telling us about
6 that you analyzed, do you know where that was?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Where was that?
9 A. It's reflected in the bottom picture
10 there under the sink.
11 Q. Is that the --
12
13 THE COURT: When you turn them that
14 way they break, kindly stop that. That's the second one
15 that's happened to.
16 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, this is the
17 first one for me, Judge.
18 THE COURT: All right.
19 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I beg the Court's
20 pardon.
21 THE COURT: Thank you.
22 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Would you be so
23 kind as to assist me, Mr. Mosty? We will pick this up
24 together.
25 MR. RICHARD MOSTY: Yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3213

1 THE COURT: All right. Be careful.
2 All right.
3
4 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
5 Q. Are you saying that it is this
6 flowered rug right here?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Okay. And that is the rug that I am
9 holding up?
10 A. If I could look at the markings,
11 please?
12 Q. Sure. You want to look at the paper
13 sack that it was in?
14 A. Yes, our number.

15 Q. Does that help?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. This is the rug?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. And again, you just sampled the
20 portions that are indicated in the rug, the defects
21 there?
22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You can see there's more blood there?
24 A. I personally didn't cut those out.
25 Those are the areas that were tested, yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3214

1 Q. I understand. But there is a
2 considerable blood shown here that is not -- has not been
3 tested?
4 A. There is.
5 Q. Okay. Now, there was another rug
6 similar, back here, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This is the rug that you tested?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. This is -- have you tested this rug?
11 A. I have no knowledge of that rug but --
12 no, I have not.
13 Q. Okay. There was another rug right
14 here. Have you tested that rug?
15 A. No, I have not.
16 Q. Okay. Just weren't asked to, I guess?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. Okay. What do you -- I think that is
19 it. When evidence is gathered, you recommend that it be
20 separated as it's gathered? I mean, if you gather one
21 bloody thing here and another bloody thing someplace
22 else?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Okay. And why is that?
25 A. To maintain the integrity of the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3215

1 evidence on that item.
2 Q. Is that so that it doesn't -- if you
3 put two bloody items together, if they are wet, they can
4 bleed one into the other, can't they?
5 A. If there is a lot of soaked through
6 blood, yes, that can happen.
7 Q. Well, there really doesn't have to be
8 a great deal of soaked through blood, does there?
9 A. Well --

10 Q. Any more than if you took blood on two
11 pieces of paper and put it together and it would
12 immediately combine and mix, wouldn't it? I mean, we
13 know that from common knowledge, don't we?
14 A. There has to be enough to mix, yes.
15 Q. Sure. Just like we know from common
16 knowledge that if we, for example, if things are -- water
17 dilutes, doesn't it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And if we -- if we were to wet
20 down some towels with blood, the water would have a
21 diluting effect to the blood, would it not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Now, if we wanted to find
24 out -- the pubic hair that was submitted to Gene Screen
25 and where that was recovered from the den of the Routier
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3216

1 residence, who would we talk to?
2 A. I don't have any knowledge of that. I
3 don't know.
4 Q. Okay. I mean, who would it be in your
5 facility who would have access to that sort of
6 information?
7 A. Normally, hair analyses would come in
8 through trace evidence.
9 Q. Okay. That would be Dr. Irving Stone
10 is the head of trace evidence, is he not?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. And Mr. Linch works for Dr. Stone,
13 doesn't he?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Did you -- in your DNA analysis, you
16 can do hair, can't you?
17 A. If there is a root or tissue adhered
18 to the hair, yes, we are able to get a type on hair.

19 Q. If there is a root or tissue to it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And did you have a facial hair
22 submitted to you?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You did not?
25 A. No.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3217

1 Q. You all have had DNA capability there
2 at SWIFS for 10 years?
3 A. Since 1991.
4 Q. Okay. All right. You can analyze
5 saliva, can't you?
6 A. Well, if the analysis is actually on
7 some cells, in the saliva.
8 Q. Right. But saliva has cells, doesn't
9 it?
10 A. Oftentimes, yes.
11 Q. Just like you can do -- what do you
12 do, you do the white blood cells?
13 A. From a blood sample?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Yes. The DNA is in the nucleated
16 cells, which is normally the white blood cells.
17 Q. Traditionally, the red ones don't
18 have?
19 A. Mature red cells are non-nucleated,
20 that's correct.
21 Q. But at any rate, it doesn't take a

22 great deal of saliva to give you a reaction, does it?
23 Matter of fact, you do cigarette filters, don't you?

24 A. We do the cigarette filters and it's
25 from the cells that are on those filters. Normally, that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3218

1 would be transferred from the mouth.
2 Q. Okay. But, I mean, ordinarily you
3 don't soak down -- I don't know whether you smoke or not,
4 or if you smoked filter cigarettes, but ordinarily, you
5 don't get that part of the tobacco that wet, but it's so
6 sensitive, that it can pick that up, can't it? The DNA?
7 A. I'm not quite sure what you are
8 asking, but yes, we can get DNA off of cigarette filters.
9 Q. They don't have to be soaked with
10 saliva either, do they?
11 A. Again, it is not the saliva we are
12 looking at. It's the cellular transfer that occurs on
13 that filter.
14 Q. I understand. The cells are
15 transferred in the saliva, are they not?
16 A. Well, not necessarily, it may be from
17 the lips themselves.
18 Q. Okay. All right. Well, I guess they
19 could be blown through from the cells inside the mouth.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. That we slough all the time, don't we?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Okay.
24
25 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I think that's
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3219

1 all. Thank you, Ms. Van Winkle.
2
3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
4
5 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
6 Q. Ms. Van Winkle, I just have one
7 question about the sample retrieved near where the knife
8 had been. Did you receive an item No. 33-F in a film
9 canister labeled kitchen bar?
10 A. Yes, I did. That was near that area.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I'm not sure if it's that same
13 location or not.
14 Q. You were not there, so you don't know
15 where the knife was; is that right?

16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. 33-F, would that be where I am holding
18 my finger there?
19 A. It is.
20 Q. Okay.
21
22 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Could I see that?
23 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yeah.
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3220

1 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
2 Q. And that one is one of them that
3 indicated back to Darlie Routier, right?
4 A. It did.
5 Q. All right.
6
7 MR. GREG DAVIS: No further questions.
8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I think that's
9 all.
10 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am. You may
11 be excused. Your next witness, please.
12 MR. GREG DAVIS: We'll call Tom Bevel.
13 THE COURT: Tom Bevel. Watch your
14 step.
15 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: May we approach
16 the bench?
17 THE COURT: You may.
18
19 (Whereupon, a short

20 Discussion was held
21 Off the record, after
22 Which time the

23 Proceedings were resumed
24 As follows:)
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3221

1 THE COURT: Sir, have a seat right up
2 here.
3 All right. Sir, if you will raise
4 your right hand, please?
5
6 (Whereupon, the witness

7 Was duly sworn by the
8 Court, to speak the truth,
9 The whole truth and

10 Nothing but the truth,
11 After which, the

12 Proceedings were
13 Resumed as follows:)
14
15 THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or
16 affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be
17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
18 help you God?
19 THE WITNESS: I do, sir.
20 THE COURT: Okay. You're under the

21 Rule of Evidence. That simply means when you are not
22 testifying, you must remain outside of the courtroom.
23 Don't talk about your testimony with

24 anybody who has testified. In other words, don't compare
25 it. You may talk to the attorneys for either side.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3222

1 If someone tries to talk to you about
2 your testimony, tell the attorney for the side who called
3 you. If you will state your name and spell your last
4 name for the record, please.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. Tom Bevel. That's
6 B-E-V, as in Victor, E-L.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Davis.
8 MR. GREG DAVIS: Thank you, sir.
9
10
11 Whereupon,
12
13 TOM BEVEL,
14
15 Was called as a witness, for the State of Texas, having
16 been first duly sworn by the Court to speak the truth,
17 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, testified in
18 open court, as follows:
19
20
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION
22
23 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
24 Q. Mr. Bevel, would you please tell us
25 what your occupation is?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3223

1 A. Yes, sir. I'm the owner of TBI,
2 Forensic Education and Consulting.
3 Q. Okay. And what is TBI, Forensic
4 Consulting do?
5 A. About three-fourths of the work is
6 teaching, either basic or advanced 40-hour bloodstain
7 pattern analysis courses.

8 Then there is also a basic crime scene
9 reconstruction school that is 40 hours. And then simply
10 lectures. And approximately one-fourth of the work would
11 probably be case work, such as this.
12 Q. How long have you been the owner of
13 TBI?
14 A. Since 1979.
15 Q. Okay. Were you previously employed
16 with the Police Department?
17 A. Yes, sir. I retired May 1 of this
18 year from the Oklahoma City Police Department.
19 Q. Okay. And what rank did you hold at
20 the time of your retirement?
21 A. I was a captain at the time of
22 retirement. I was in charge of four units, which was
23 homicide, robbery, missing persons and major unsolved
24 cases.
25 Q. Okay. As a police officer, did you
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3224

1 deal with technical investigations?
2 A. Yes, sir, I did. In fact, a great
3 amount of my time was actually assigned either in
4 technical investigation or the forensic lab. And would
5 have approximately 25 years experience in that area.
6 Q. All right. When we talk about
7 technical investigations, what are we talking about
8 there?
9 A. We're talking about the processing of
10 the crime scene, looking for evidence, the collection,
11 documentation, photography, measuring, sketching of any
12 of the physical evidence that might be related to a
13 possible crime scene.
14 Q. All right. Do you have experience in
15 fingerprint identification?
16 A. Yes, sir, I do.
17 Q. Do you have experience in bloodstain
18 pattern analysis?
19 A. Yes, sir, I do.
20 Q. Do you also have experience in crime
21 scene reconstruction?
22 A. Yes, sir, I do.
23 Q. Do you hold any certificates or
24 degrees in those particular specialties, sir?
25 A. Yes, I do. I have a certificate for
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3225

1 the 40-hour course in bloodstain pattern analysis.
2 Actually, I have two of them in the basic area. One of
3 those was taught in Orlando, Florida, in conjunction with
4 the Orlando, Florida, medical examiner's office, and the
5 local police department.
6 And I have a 40-hour certificate,
7 again, in bloodstain pattern analysis from the Laboratory
8 of Forensic Science in Corning, New York. And then
9 advanced studies again in bloodstain pattern from Elmira
10 College in Elmira, New York.
11 Crime scene reconstruction was taught
12 as a discipline at Hendon Police College, which is in
13 London, England.
14 I attended a course there that was six
15 weeks in duration on forensic science and a big portion
16 of that was crime scene reconstruction, physical
17 evidence.
18 A graduate of the Central U.S. Police
19 Institute, again, a four-week course dealing specifically
20 with physical evidence and also crime scene
21 reconstruction, and again some others.
22 Q. Okay. Do you belong to any
23 professional associations or societies?
24 A. Yes, sir. Member of the American
25 Academy of Forensic Science; the Southwest Association of
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3226

1 Forensic Scientists; was the charter president for both
2 the Association of Crime Scene Reconstruction and for the
3 International Association of Bloodstain Pattern Analysts.
4 1981 was named Member for the British
5 Academy of Forensic Science, and named also a Fellow for
6 the British Fingerprint Society. And again, some others.
7 Q. Have you taught courses in bloodstain
8 pattern analysis and crime scene reconstruction?
9 A. Yes, sir, I have.
10 Q. Okay. What type of classes have you
11 taught?
12 A. Well, they have been somewhat varied.
13 Some of them have been through colleges or universities.
14 Some of them have been through police agencies or
15 training academies. Of course, some of them are 40 hours
16 in duration, some of them are just simply a day or
17 two-day lectures, such as the National College of
18 District Attorneys, the Southern Police Institute, again,
19 various groups.
20 Q. Okay. Have you also taught courses in
21 foreign countries?
22 A. Yes, sir, I have.
23 Q. Okay. Have you had any articles
24 published in professional journals, Mr. Bevel?
25 A. Yes, I have had. Several articles
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3227

1 have been published either on bloodstain pattern analysis
2 or crime scene reconstruction. They have appeared, for

3 example, in the Journal of Forensic Identification which
4 is a publication for the International Association for
5 Identification. For the Association of Crime Scene
6 Reconstruction newsletter.
7 Let's see, Southwest Association of
8 Forensic Sciences, I had some published there. And then
9 I have a book, a hardback book coming out with the CRC
10 Press, under the Forensic Science Series, is where it is
11 actually under. And the title of it is, Bloodstain

12 Pattern Analysis, with an Introduction to Crime Scene
13 Reconstruction. It will be out in May.
14 Q. Has the FBI ever referred cases to you
15 from other agencies?
16 A. Yes, sir. They have referred
17 approximately 11 or 12 cases from other agencies and then
18 I have worked on two cases that they were investigating
19 themselves.
20 Q. Have you ever had occasion to come
21 down to this part of Texas to work on any cases?
22 A. Yes, sir. A number of years ago, Camp
23 Verde, Texas, I worked a case there. Then, one for
24 Kerrville, and there is actually several different cases
25 in the general area.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3228

1 Q. Okay. In the case in Kerrville, did
2 you actually testify here?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Mr. Bevel, in this case did I ask you
5 to look at certain bloodstain patterns?
6 A. You did, sir.
7 Q. All right. And, do you recall when I
8 first called you or contacted you about this case?
9 A. It was the 1st of September.
10 Q. All right. And before that time, had
11 you and I ever spoken to each other or met or worked on
12 any cases together?
13 A. We have not.
14 Q. Okay. Prior to that time, had you

15 done any work for the Dallas County District Attorney's
16 Office?
17 A. For the DA's Office, no, I have not.
18 Q. All right. After I spoke with you, at
19 some point, did you come to my office in Dallas and meet
20 with me?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. Was that some time in September also?
23 A. I believe September 11th.
24 Q. All right. And at that time, did you
25 have the opportunity to review certain pieces of
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3229

1 evidence?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. For instance, did you have a
4 chance at that point to look at the crime scene
5 photographs?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Did you also have a chance to look at
8 the autopsy photographs regarding Devon and Damon
9 Routier?
10 A. Yes, sir, I did.
11 Q. Did you look at a T-shirt, which in
12 this case is State's Exhibit No. 25, a Victoria Secret
13 nightshirt, did you look at that also?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Did you have a chance to look at the
16 carpet that came out of the family room at 5801 Eagle

17 Drive?
18 A. I have.
19 Q. In addition, did you have an
20 opportunity to look at a vacuum cleaner that had been
21 taken out of 5801 Eagle Drive?
22 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
23 Q. Did you meet with me in my office up
24 there at the courthouse?
25 A. Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3230

1 Q. Did you also, during that trip, have
2 an opportunity to go out to SWIFS to talk to the people
3 out there?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Did you also have the opportunity to
6 go out to the Rowlett Police Department and view certain
7 other evidence out there?
8 A. Yes, sir, I went out there.
9 Q. Now, during your trip in September,

10 did you have the opportunity to go inside the house there
11 at 5801 Eagle Drive?
12 A. On my first trip, I did not. Access
13 to the house was -- we didn't have permission, I guess.
14 Q. Okay. Did you have a chance to drive
15 by the house?
16 A. I did drive by it, yes, sir.
17 Q. Now, after your trip to Dallas in
18 September, did you come back to Dallas again?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. When did you come back?
21 A. I came back several times. I will
22 have to get a sheet to give you the exact dates.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. The first trip was September the 11th
25 through the 12th. The next trip was September the 19th.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3231

1 And then October 1st and 2nd, and then November the 26th.
2 Q. Okay. Did you ever have the
3 opportunity to go into the house there at 5801 Eagle
4 Drive during any of your trips?
5 A. Yes, sir, I did. And that was
6 November the 26th.
7 Q. Mr. Bevel, I want to just kind of

8 start at the beginning here, and if you will, kind of
9 teach me about bloodstain patterns. Are there different
10 kinds of bloodstain patterns?
11 A. Yes, sir, there certainly are.

12 Q. What are the different kinds?
13 A. We generally, as a descriptive term,
14 will break them down into three basic categories, which,
15 referring to the velocity of the separation from whatever
16 the blood source is and not how fast they are travelling
17 in space.
18 The first category would be a low
19 velocity. A low velocity would be, for example, if I had
20 a cut on the end of my finger, as blood is accumulating
21 down to the end of the finger, the molecule attraction
22 and the surface tension of the blood droplet is actually
23 trying to hold on, but, of course, gravity is trying to
24 pull it downward.
25 And once it reaches a sufficient
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3232

1 volume to where it is able to overcome the surface
2 tension, then it will break away and it will simply fall
3 straight downward. If it falls to, for example, the
4 floor or if it would fall to the podium here, it would be
5 basically round, once it gets done through the dynamics

6 of impacting and spreading out and ultimately settling.
7 Now, if I had the same cut on my

8 finger and if I were to start swinging my hand, I am
9 introducing additional force here other than just simply
10 gravity.
11 And due to the centrifugal force and
12 the movement of the blood pulling down to the end of the
13 finger, it will break away and this blood droplet will be
14 considerably smaller than what the low velocity blood
15 droplet would be just simply due to gravitational
16 separation.
17 The last category and a general
18 descriptive term again is high velocity. High velocity,
19 if I had my hand up and if it were to be shot with a
20 firearm, the bullet striking the hand would be possible
21 to produce blood that we refer to as back spatter.
22 That would be blood coming back in the
23 direction from where the gun was actually being fired.
24 Upon exit of the bullet, that would be referred to as
25 forward spatter for blood going in the same direction.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3233

1 There are some general terms as far as
2 definitions, for example: Low velocity is typically 5
3 feet per second or lower, medium velocity is generally 5
4 to 25 feet per second, and then high velocity, generally
5 associated with firearms or high-speed machinery, that
6 would typically be 100 feet per second or greater.
7 To give you some ideas of what we are
8 talking about, 100 feet per second would be approximately
9 67 miles an hour.
10 Q. All right. Let me throw out some
11 terms and see if you can define these for me. A
12 transfer, what is a transfer?
13 A. Okay. Yes, sir. If I had blood on my
14 hand and if I were, for example, to come in contact with
15 my coat, tie and shirt, there would be a transference of
16 blood from my bloody hand, assuming that it's still wet,
17 to those items.
18 Now, you will never have a 100 percent
19 transfer. Even though there may be some impression of

20 blood on the clothing, there will still be an impression
21 of blood or residue of blood on the item that originally
22 held the blood.
23 Q. Okay. How about the term, spatter?
24 A. Spatter is, generically, a lot of

25 people refer to spatter as just simply the overall term
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3234

1 for bloodstain pattern analysis. But within our field,
2 it is specifically talking about blood that has been
3 separated due to a force.
4 So, for example, if I had blood on my
5 hand and if it was impacted by something, the blood
6 coming from that impact would be referred to as blood
7 spatter.
8 Q. How about the term, cast-off?
9 A. If you have some object that has
10 blood, and again, I can just simply use my hand, as I am
11 swinging my hand, the centrifugal force pulling the blood
12 away from the end of my appendages as they end up, as the
13 blood separates, it will go out, if I am swinging hard
14 enough, well, I doubt if it would reach this ceiling, but
15 it could go in front of me to the area above me and also
16 behind me.
17 Q. Okay. When you go out to a crime
18 scene and you look at bloodstain patterns, what kind of
19 information can you obtain from looking at them?

20 A. We're trying to identify the
21 occurrences that took place in order to produce the
22 bloodstains as they are found. In essence, it's a form
23 of crime scene reconstruction, but it's a narrow form
24 because we're dealing specifically with bloodstain
25 patterns.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3235

1 So, as I look at a particular pattern,
2 one of the first things I try to do is determine if it's
3 consistent with a low, medium or a high velocity
4 occurrence. And that will automatically include or
5 exclude certain actions as being possible depending upon
6 the category that it may fall in.
7 So, we're trying to determine what
8 caused the bloodstain as it is found at the crime scene.
9 Q. What is it that allows you to do that?
10 How do you determine those types of things?
11 A. Well, it's primarily from obviously

12 the education as to the dynamics, the cause and effect,
13 if you would. Bloodstains are uniform in character and
14 of course, if they were not, we couldn't use it as a
15 scientifically valid discipline.
16 What I'm saying there is, that if I
17 have the same volume of blood on the same surface and I
18 have the same occurrence impact it, the same type of

19 bloodstain pattern should result each and every time that
20 I do that, providing that everything is equal; the same
21 amount of blood, same surface, same impact.
22 Now, as you start changing that, then
23 the bloodstain patterns, for example, their size, their
24 distribution, the direction of travel, the numbers of
25 them, all of those can change, and what you end up
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3236

1 finding should be consistent with the occurrence that
2 took place in order to produce them.
3 Q. Mr. Bevel, prior to testifying today,
4 have you had an opportunity to look at photographs taken
5 of the utility room floor there at 5801 Eagle Drive?
6 A. Yes, sir, I have.
7 Q. Okay. Specifically, I'm showing you
8 now State's Exhibits 38-A, B, C and D. Do you recognize
9 these photographs, sir?

10 A. I do.
11 Q. Okay. Now, looking at the blood on
12 the floor of this utility room, sir, how would you

13 categorize the blood that we see here on the floor?
14 A. They are low velocity blood drops
15 simply falling from above impacting the floor, just
16 simply that, low velocity, 90 degree, blood droplets.

17 Q. Okay. Would they be consistent with
18 an individual standing still and bleeding where she is
19 dripping blood on the floor?
20 A. That certainly could be the cause,
21 yes, sir.
22 Q. Now, during your trip to 5801 Eagle
23 Drive on November 26th, Mr. Bevel, did you have an
24 opportunity to go into the utility room itself and look
25 at the floor?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3237

1 A. Yes, sir, I did.
2 Q. Okay. And, looking at these
3 photographs here, 38-A, B, C and D, let me ask you to
4 assume that an individual standing in this utility room,
5 that individual is holding a butcher knife, and I believe
6 that you have actually seen that butcher knife, it's
7 State's Exhibit No. 67. Have you actually seen that
8 knife, sir?
9
10 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Excuse me, your
11 Honor, may we approach?
12 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
13 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: We need to have
14 a hearing.
15 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and

16 gentlemen of the jury, it's necessary from time to time
17 that we have to have hearings on points of law, outside
18 of your presence. If you will retire to the jury room,
19 please.
20 All right. Thank you.
21
22 (Whereupon, the jury

23 Was excused from the
24 Courtroom, and the

25 Proceedings were held
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3238

1 In the presence of the
2 Defendant, with her
3 Attorney, but outside
4 The presence of the jury
5 As follows:)
6
7 THE COURT: All right. Let the record
8 reflect that these proceedings are being held outside of
9 the presence of the jury and all parties of the trial are
10 present.
11 All right. Mr. Hagler.
12 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Let me just explain
13 to the Court the nature of our request for this hearing,
14 your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right
16 MR. JOHN HAGLER: We're not here to

17 say that this individual is not an expert in certain
18 areas of blood spattering. On the other hand, from what
19 I understand, we anticipate that he is going to testify
20 as to more than simply blood spattering in this
21 residence.
22 We anticipate that he is going to be
23 giving testimony, his own opinion, I guess, so-called

24 expert testimony, as to certain factors or certain events
25 that occurred during the alleged offense.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3239

1 And, your Honor, the State is offering
2 this expert testimony and they are the -- being the
3 proponent of this testimony, they bear the burden of
4 proving that such testimony has both relevance and
5 reliability.
6 And, if I might, I'm going to kind of
7 give the Court an overview of what our objection is going
8 to be. And then I would ask that the Court instruct the
9 prosecutor to develop the testimony that he intends to
10 elicit through this witness.
11 And then we can finish by making our
12 objections, and the Court can rule, if that's a
13 satisfactory proceeding.
14 THE COURT: That is fine.
15 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Your Honor, again,
16 merely because this individual may be an expert does not
17 necessarily mean that he is an expert to testify in all
18 areas of his necessary field.
19 In other words, there are certain
20 areas that the State is required to establish that there
21 is expert testimony under Section 702 that would aid and
22 assist the jury. And furthermore, that such testimony is
23 based on reliable testimony and the fact that it is
24 relevant.
25 Now, I may be getting a little bit
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3240

1 ahead of myself but we have already gotten into this
2 matter about the T-shirt in State's Exhibit 25. And the
3 Court, I know is well aware of our position already, and
4 the Court has already ruled on that. But again, we want
5 to make sure that Court is fully aware of the fact --
6 THE COURT: Yes, I am.
7 MR. JOHN HAGLER: -- that we
8 anticipate this witness to be testifying as to evidence
9 that was obtained off of State's Exhibit No. 25 in
10 forming his conclusions as to things such as -- I
11 understand he is going to testify as how the knife was
12 allegedly used; how it was held; how it was raised;
13 position of it, et cetera.
14 And again, our position in this area
15 is that he may be able to testify as to where some blood
16 dots are on a shirt or material, on the floor or on the
17 wall. But there has been no showing that the science has
18 developed to the point where an individual can give an
19 opinion supported by scientific reliability and research
20 and what have you, that would allow him to give such an
21 opinion under Section 702.
22 Now, I know the Court is aware of
23 several cases, but just so the record is clear, I would
24 like to cite these in the record for the Court.
25 Of course, one of them is the U.S.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3241

1 Supreme Court decision on Daubert, it's 113, Supreme
_______
2 Court 2786. D-A-U-B-E-R-T, 113, Supreme Court, 2786.
3 And Daubert is a significant decision
_______
4 because it virtually rewrote the area of law regarding
5 the admissibility of expert witness' testimony. The
6 Supreme Court of the United States held that --
7 THE COURT: The Court is familiar with
8 the decision, but go ahead and put that in.
9 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Well, I would like
10 to make sure that everyone is aware -- I know you have
11 read the case, your Honor, but I just want to repeat it
12 again.
13 But the Court held that you as the
14 trial judge have a responsibility and a heavy
15 responsibility as being the gatekeeper in determining
16 what expert testimony is both reliable and relevant. And
17 you have to make that determination.
18 Now, I might also mention that Daubert
_______
19 has also been adopted by the Texas courts in Robinson,
________
20 923, Southwest, 2nd, 549.
21 Kind of basically, your Honor, in the
22 Robinson case, what the Court stated to the -- or at
________
23 least set out kind of a road map for the trial judges to
24 follow in determining whether or not to allow so-called
25 expert testimony, the court has to make a number of
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3242

1 determinations.
2 And again, it's not our burden. It's
3 the burden right over here for the prosecutor for the

4 State to establish the reliability of such testimony.
5 Again, I am zeroing in on this
6 witness, and we anticipate his testimony as to a number
7 of things, and I have already mentioned those. But
8 again, some of these areas as far as expert testimony, as
9 far as his theory, as to why he can predict.
10 And we would urge it's more in the
11 nature of speculations as opposed to anything based on
12 scientific principles. But several factors have been set
13 out for this Court to consider; that being the extent to
14 which the theory has been used and tested; the extent to
15 which the techniques -- the technique relies upon the
16 subjective interpretation of the expert.
17 That is one area in particular here
18 where we're saying that in this particular area, that
19 there is a heavy emphasis on the subjective
20 interpretation by this witness. And there is no basis in
21 the scientific research or data that would support his
22 expert opinion testimony.
23
24 THE COURT: We have not heard it yet,
25 but let's go ahead with your --
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3243

1 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Well, I understand,
2 I kind of got this ahead, Judge, so I don't have to go
3 backwards and kind of give the Court a road map here.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
5 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Furthermore, one of
6 the theories has been subjected to peer review and/or

7 publications, the techniques potential rate of error,
8 whether the underlying theory or technique has been
9 generally accepted as valid by the relevant scientific
10 community.
11 That is the old Frye test which has
____
12 been pretty much changed by Rule 702. In the nonjudicial
13 uses which have been made of the theory or technique.
14 So, again under the Daubert and
_______
15 Robinson line of cases, you know, we would ask that the
________
16 State establish the reliability and relevance of this
17 testimony.
18 And we would urge that it is not -- we
19 would anticipate that our objection is going to be from
20 what we have heard so far that it is not going to be
21 admissible under Rule 702, 703 and 705.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. JOHN HAGLER: And furthermore, we
24 would ask in the event that the Court does -- again, we
25 would ask the Court to also take into mind the 403
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3244

1 balancing test rule.
2 THE COURT: All right. Thank you very
3 much. We appreciate it. If you go ahead and question,
4 please.
5 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir.
6
7
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
9
10 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
11 Q. Mr. Bevel, how many times have you
12 testified as an expert witness in this area of bloodstain
13 pattern analysis?
14 A. It's in the hundreds.
15 Q. Okay. How many times have you
16 testified in the State of Texas as a bloodstain pattern
17 analyst?
18 A. I don't know the exact number, but
19 probably 40 or 50 times.
20 Q. Forty to fifty times?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Okay. Any idea of the number of
23 states in which you have testified as an expert in
24 bloodstain pattern analysis?
25 A. That I have actually testified, I
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3245

1 think somewhere in the range of probably about 18 to 22,
2 somewhere in there.
3 Q. Okay. Now, you heard Mr. Hagler talk
4 about the length of time that these techniques have been
5 in use by your profession?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. How long has -- have the techniques
8 been used for bloodstain pattern analysis?
9 A. Well, prior to the 1900's, there is a
10 great amount of literature studying, for example, the
11 different types of patterns that are created under
12 certain circumstances, the directionality.
13 Prior to the 1900's they even
14 developed the mathematical principle of the long and the
15 short axis, being able to do inverse arc sine, so you
16 could determine what the impact angle was.
17 So it certainly predates 1900's.

18 There have been some very excellent papers done, for
19 example, by the French, well in advance of the 1900's.
20 And then, there just is simply a whole lot more since
21 that time.

22 Q. Now, is this a discipline in which the
23 results are dependent upon your subjective readings or is
24 there an objectivity to the technique also?
25 A. Well, certainly there is an
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3246

1 objectivity, and we are primarily dealing with a cause
2 and effect relationship.
3 If we're not able to recognize the
4 type of patterns that are produced, then we certainly
5 have to go into objective testings, so that we can try
6 and determine what occurrence may have taken place in
7 order to produce them.
8 But once you have done most of the

9 experiments that are within the basic 40-hour course, the
10 advanced course, the additional experimentation, you have
11 been exposed to the majority of the real common ones, so
12 that you are able to recognize them, without actually
13 being forced to do experimentation.
14 Q. How about peer review? Have these
15 techniques been reviewed by peers in your field?
16 A. In many areas, yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay. And, have your techniques been
18 accepted as scientifically valid.
19 A. They have been accepted, if not all 50
20 states, very close to all 50 U.S. states and many foreign
21 countries.
22 Q. Have they been accepted as
23 scientifically valid in the State of Texas?
24 A. They have.
25 MR. GREG DAVIS: Now, if I may, I can
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3247

1 summarize for the Court, at this time, the opinions that
2 I expect to elicit from this witness.
3 I expect this witness to testify that
4 the patterns found here in the photographs 38-A through D
5 are inconsistent with an individual dropping or throwing
6 a bloody knife on the utility room floor.
7 I expect Mr. Bevel to testify about
8 tests that he performed, on the utility room floor
9 himself, on November the 26th, 1996, when he threw and
10 dropped a bloody knife, State's Exhibit 67 on the floor.
11 I expect for him to testify that those
12 results are inconsistent with what we see here in 38-A
13 through D. I expect Mr. Bevel to look at State's
14 Exhibits 111-A and B, which are the photographs showing
15 the imprint of the knife on the carpet.
16 I expect for him to testify about a
17 test he performed on November 26th, where he took State's
18 Exhibit 67, put blood on that knife and, then laid the

19 knife on the carpet, and then also dropped or threw the
20 knife on the carpet.
21 I expect for him to testify that in
22 his opinion, that the imprint shown in State's Exhibit
23 111-A and 111-B are consistent with that bloody knife,
24 State's Exhibit Number 67, having been laid down on the
25 carpet at 5801 Eagle Drive.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3248

1 I expect Mr. Bevel to testify, with
2 regard to State's Exhibit Number 93, the vacuum cleaner,
3 that he found evidence of blood drops on the vacuum
4 cleaner, and that those drops were deposited while the

5 vacuum cleaner was standing upright, and while it was
6 laying down on the floor. That he found a smear on the
7 handle consistent with an individual placing her bloody
8 hand on that handle.
9 I also expect Mr. Bevel to testify

10 that he saw evidence of roll marks near the kitchen sink
11 at 5801 Eagle Drive. That those marks are consistent
12 with State's Exhibit Number 93, the vacuum cleaner having
13 been rolled through the blood, shortly after the blood
14 was deposited on the floor.
15 I expect Mr. Bevel to testify that he
16 would expect the intruder to have blood on his hands, or
17 at least on one hand, when he entered the garage when he
18 exited out this window, and when he exited the back yard.
19 I expect Mr. Bevel to testify with

20 regards to the sock that is in evidence, that he would
21 expect under the scenario, in which two children were
22 stabbed, and the defendant was wounded with that knife,

23 and a struggle occurred, that he would expect to see the
24 defendant's blood on that sock, rather than the two boys
25 blood.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3249

1 With regards to the T-shirt, I expect
2 Mr. Bevel to testify with regards to the stain sample
3 shown as T-10, that being a stain showing to be a mixture
4 between Devon and Darlie Routier, that that is cast-off
5 blood, that is not a transfer from one portion of the
6 T-shirt to another, and that the movement of that stain
7 is down to up.
8 With regards to State's Exhibit
9 Number -- again, these are shown as on State's Exhibit
10 120. With regards to the sample labeled T-9, that being
11 a mixture between Damon and Darlie Routier, I expect Mr.
12 Bevel to testify that is a cast-off, that is not a
13 transfer from one part of the shirt to another. And that
14 the movement of that one is down to up.
15 I expect with regard to sample LS-1,
16 that being a mixture between Damon and Darlie Routier,
17 that Mr. Bevel will testify that that is also cast-off
18 blood, and that is not the product of a transfer from one
19 part of the T-shirt to another. And with regards to
20 stain LS-3, I expect Mr. Bevel to testify that that also
21 is a mixture of Devon and Darlie Routier, that is
22 cast-off, that is not the product of transfer from one
23 portion of the T-shirt to another. And with regards to
24 stain T-15 on State's Exhibit Number 121.
25 MR. RICHARD MOSTY: Are you on the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3250

1 back now?
2 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yeah, I'm on the
3 back. That is on the back of the T-shirt, that being a
4 stain, coming back to Devon Routier, that that is also
5 cast-off, that the direction on that stain is either up

6 or down, the long axis being in that direction, in an up
7 and down fashion, and that that stain is also not the
8 product of a transfer from one part of the shirt to
9 another.
10 With regards to stain T-15, again on
11 the back, I expect Mr. Bevel to testify that that stain
12 is consistent with the defendant leaning over the victim
13 Devon Routier and stabbing him, and that that product,
14 that stain T-15 is the product of the withdrawal of the
15 knife from the victim, and the blood then going over her
16 right shoulder, and depositing on her back.
17 T-10 and T-9, on the right front

18 portion of the T-shirt, I expect Mr. Bevel to testify
19 that those are also the product of the defendant leaning
20 over these two victims, Devon and Damon Routier, stabbing
21 them, and then withdrawing the knife, and that the stains
22 are then consistent with that motion.
23 I expect Mr. Bevel to testify on LS-1
24 and LS-3, that those two stains are consistent with the
25 defendant leaning over, stabbing Devon and Damon Routier,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3251

1 and that the stains are consistent with the heel of her
2 hand coming in contact with the stab wound areas of each
3 boy producing the cast-off shown in LS-1 and LS-3.
4 I believe that concludes the opinions
5 that I expect Mr. Bevel to testify to.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Mosty or Mr. Hagler?
7 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: May I inquire
8 of Mr. Davis something?
9 THE COURT: You may.
10
11 (Whereupon, a short

12 Discussion was held
13 Off the record, after
14 Which time the

15 Proceedings were resumed
16 As follows:)
17
18 THE COURT: All right. Back on the
19 record.
20 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: All right. May
21 I take the witness on voir dire?
22 THE COURT: You may.
23 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And to focus in
24 on --
25 THE COURT: Sure.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3252

1 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: -- some of
2 these particular things?
3 THE COURT: You may.
4
5 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
6
7 BY MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:
8 Q. Mr. Bevel, let's just talk in general
9 of these statements, when you say that this is
10 inconsistent with a knife being dropped. Or that this
11 action is consistent with a cast-off.
12 Now, first you have identified the
13 blood and the angle and all those things, and that is not
14 what I am talking about here. Once you make that
15 statement of inconsistent -- or that it is consistent
16 with this, or it is inconsistent with that, you are not
17 excluding all other possibilities, are you?
18 A. Well, that would depend on which area?
19 Q. Okay. I was hoping we could do this a
20 little easier. But we are going to have to go through
21 them one by one then.
22 Let's talk about the knife on to the
23 linoleum. Your testimony, as I understand, would be that
24 the linoleum that you observed in November was
25 inconsistent with having a knife dropped on it.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3253

1 A. Inconsistent with a knife dropping on
2 to the linoleum that had blood on it.
3 Q. Okay. Now, at that time, first, did
4 you know, whether or not, that area had been cleaned at
5 all? Or the linoleum that you observed?
6 A. Well, cleaned from when? I know that
7 there were still individual blood droplets were still
8 there, so it had not been cleaned to get those blood
9 droplets up.
10 Q. It had not been cleaned completely?
11 A. Well I don't have any knowledge that
12 it was cleaned at all.
13 Q. You don't know one way or another was
14 some of it cleaned, or was some of it not cleaned?

15 A. If there was any cleaning, I am
16 unaware of it and there is certainly no evidence that
17 there was.
18 Q. Okay. I am not going to try to argue
19 with you. You don't know one way or another, do you?
20 A. Well, I gave my answer.
21 Q. Do you know one way or another?
22 A. I do not know, there is no evidence to
23 indicate that there had been any cleaning.
24 Q. So that means you don't know, right?
25 A. Well, I'll answer it again, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3254

1 Q. Well, let's don't do that. I'm not
2 going play that game with you.
3
4 THE COURT: Well now, I think the
5 witness understands, and I think that he has answered the
6 question.
7
8 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
9 Q. Had it been dusted for prints?
10 A. Had that -- you mean the floor itself?
11 Q. The entire linoleum floor.
12 A. I have no knowledge that it was dusted
13 for prints.
14 Q. Don't know one way or another?
15 A. There was no evidence that there was
16 any fingerprint powder on that area.
17 Q. Had the furniture been moved out of
18 it?
19 A. I don't have any knowledge.
20 Q. Was there furniture in it?
21 A. I don't have any knowledge, other than
22 what the photographs depict.
23 Q. I'm talking about on the day when you
24 were there, on the 26th, was there furniture there in the
25 room?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3255

1 A. Oh, I'm sorry. No.
2 Q. Okay. So, if there were furniture in
3 it, at the time of the crime, then that furniture had
4 been moved out?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Okay. And, did you see evidence of
7 some of the blood on the linoleum, having been disturbed
8 at different places?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Were you aware, whether or not

11 originally there were or were not rugs in the room?
12 A. In the room itself?
13 Q. Yes?
14 A. I don't have any knowledge of there
15 being rugs in the room, no, sir.
16 Q. One way or another?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Okay. When you were there, there
19 were no rugs?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. All right. Now, these experiments
22 that you did, and as I understand this is taking a knife,
23 and dropping it on the linoleum floor?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Did you take any notes of that?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3256

1 A. Photographs.
2 Q. Okay. Where are those photographs?
3 May I see them?
4 A. I don't have them.
5 Q. Who took them?
6 A. The Rowlett Police Department.
7 Q. Who has them?
8 A. Either the Rowlett Police Department,
9 or the prosecution I am not sure.
10 Q. You haven't seen them?
11 A. Well, I have not seen them since they
12 have been developed, no, sir.
13 Q. Okay. You don't have those
14 photographs with you?
15
16 MR. GREG DAVIS: They are back there.
17 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Okay. Can we
18 get them? We are going to need to get into all of this
19 stuff. I was hoping to do it quicker, but I'm not going
20 to be able to.
21 MR. GREG DAVIS: I was under the
22 assumption that these photographs were viewed, when they
23 came up there to my office in December, and looked at all
24 of these photographs. But, yes, if they weren't then I
25 will certainly be happy to bring them all out.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3257

1 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, I need
2 them very briefly and I will move on to something else
3 while we are getting them, but I need them very briefly
4 to talk to him about this experiment.
5 THE COURT: All right. Let's bring
6 them in.

7 MR. GREG DAVIS: Let me go see if they
8 are back there.
9 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Do you want us
10 to go ahead?
11 MR. GREG DAVIS: You can go ahead.
12 Toby is there.
13
14 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
15 Q. You didn't take any notes of these
16 experiments?
17 A. The only notes taken, was the fact
18 that photographs were taken.
19 Q. Let's try to be clear. I'm talking

20 about you sitting down and saying experiment number 1,
21 you didn't do that, did you?

22 A. I did not.
23 Q. Now, did you document, in your notes,
24 for instance, how much blood you loaded on the knife?
25 A. By weighing it, or any manner?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3258

1 Q. Any manner.
2 A. I just simply had the blade covered
3 with blood.
4 Q. Had the blade covered with blood?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay. And, was it dripping or not
7 dripping?
8 A. It was not dripping in all, with
9 exception of one.
10 Q. Okay. One time you had it dripping?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. How many experiments did you do?
13 A. Of simply dropping the knife into that
14 area?
15 Q. On to the linoleum, that's all I'm
16 talking about.
17 A. Okay. Well, let me be specific. In
18 multiple areas, in other words, not just there, but on

19 the linoleum in other areas.
20 Q. I'm talking about any linoleum
21 testing, how many times did you drop the knife?
22 A. Approximately eight.
23 Q. Okay. You can't verify that?

24 A. I think we could by looking at all of
25 the photographs. Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3259

1 Q. You think you could. Well, you didn't
2 take any notes of anything?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. Now, in each time, did you put the
5 knife in both sides in the blood and completely got the
6 knife bloody?
7 A. I did that, and then held the knife up
8 until it ceased dripping blood.
9 Q. You tapped it?
10 A. Until it ceased dripping blood.
11 Q. You held it up, or did you tap it into
12 the pan?
13 A. At various times I probably did both.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. But the point was that the blood had
16 ceased dripping.
17 Q. Okay. But sometimes you dipped it in
18 the pan before you dropped it, and sometimes you held it
19 over?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Okay. Which did you do?
22 A. I'm not sure I understand your point.
23 Q. Well, you said sometimes you may have
24 tapped it, and sometimes you may not have?
25 A. Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3260

1 Q. Okay. Do you know how many times you
2 tapped it in there, before which experiments you tapped
3 it in there, and which you didn't?
4 A. No, sir, because I was always after,
5 each time, the same result, which was the blood to cease
6 dripping.

7 Q. Okay. So you held it up and the blood
8 ceased dripping?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. Then what did you do?
11 A. Simply stood and dropped it on to the
12 floor.
13 Q. The first time, how high were you when
14 you dropped it?
15 A. Approximately waist high, each time.
16 Q. Approximately?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. You didn't verify that, how high that
19 was?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Okay. How high is that?
22 Approximately how high is approximately waist high?
23 A. Well --
24 Q. On you.
25 A. Like that.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3261

1 Q. I presume you are talking about you.
2
3 MR. GREG DAVIS: I don't know, I mean,
4 I have just come back in, and I was thinking that this
5 was to test the qualifications of this witness to render
6 a certain opinion.
7 THE COURT: Well, it is --
8 MR. RICHARD MOSTY: Well, there are

9 two phases to it. One is, he is going to testify about
10 these experiments, that are not scientifically valid

11 experiments. That is part of it. And then the second
12 is, then he goes on to say that this is consistent or
13 not. There are two parts to it.

14 THE COURT: Perhaps we could have him
15 describe in narrative form how he did these things, and
16 if you have any questions, just ask about that. Is that
17 satisfactory?
18 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: I'll try to do
19 anything that moves things along.
20 THE COURT: Let's move it along. We
21 are not letting you use this for discovery.
22 Now, I'll instruct the witness, do not
23 be evasive in your answers. Answer them straight. They
24 are pretty simple questions. Answer them straight.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3262

1 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Thank you.
2
3 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
4 Q. Of the approximate eight experiments,
5 precisely what did you do?
6 A. Each time, the knife was, or had blood
7 added to both sides, it was held in an upright position,
8 separate from the blood source, the blood was allowed to,
9 for all practical purposes, cease dripping off of the end
10 of the knife blade, as it's held in a vertical position,
11 with the point of the knife blade downward. And then, it
12 was just simply allowed to drop from approximately my
13 waist high on to the floor.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And, in order to do this multiple
16 times, you had to move to different areas, so that you
17 were not depositing the knife on to the same area.
18 Q. On each time?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Okay. Now, there is no way for me now
21 to go out there, and replicate that experiment, is there?
22
23 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Judge, we are
24 going to have to object. This is just a discovery
25 hearing, and it is not proper under 705, he's gone beyond
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3263

1 the bounds.
2 THE COURT: I understand what you --
3 I'll let him answer -- I don't know what he is going to
4 answer to this question. Go ahead.
5 Let's don't discover. We are trying
6 to get through with this hearing.
7 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Exactly what we
8 are objecting to.

9 MR. RICHARD MOSTY: Well, I have got
10 to get this -- this is a Daubert objection, and it is a
_______
11 unique area of the law.
12 THE COURT: Well it is a unique area
13 of the law, but it's not a discovery hearing, so let's
14 don't make it that.
15 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And I don't
16 intend for it to be discovery.
17 THE COURT: All right. Fine. I
18 understand what we are doing.
19
20 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
21 Q. In other words, there is no way
22 another scientist can go out there and say, "I'm going to
23 drop this knife precisely from 34 inches"?
24 A. No, sir. But to answer your prior
25 question, if I may.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3264

1 Q. No, you did just answer my prior
2 question.
3 A. Well --
4 Q. My prior question is: There is no way
5 for another scientist to say, precisely the height from
6 which you dropped that?
7 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, may I answer
8 the prior question?
9
10 THE COURT: Well, go ahead and answer
11 it. No. Just answer this and that's enough.
12 I understand where we are going.
13 Let's go.
14
15 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
16 Q. There is no way to identify precisely
17 how high you dropped it?
18 A. For each time, no, sir.
19 Q. Okay. And there is no way to identify
20 that each time you dropped it from precisely the same
21 height?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. And there is no way to determine
24 whether each time the knife had the same volume of blood
25 on it?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3265

1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And then, the second part of this --
3 that is the experiment part.
4 Was a photograph taken of each and
5 every experiment or not?
6 A. I cannot answer that. I was not
7 taking the photographs. I believe that most of them were
8 photographed, yes, sir.
9 Q. There is no written protocol that you
10 have, that you could hand to another expert, and say,
11 "This is the exact experiment that I did".
12 A. I disagree with that.
13 Q. There is a written protocol that you
14 have for this experiment?
15 A. I can write a protocol explaining what
16 I did, that Mr. Labor or Epstein could then follow suit
17 to determine whether or not it was consistent or
18 inconsistent, with the dropping of the knife, blood
19 covered, onto the floor.
20 Q. Mr. Bevel, this was simply my
21 question: Is there a written protocol that you have
22 prepared that describes this experiment?
23 A. That is written currently?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. No, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3266

1 Q. Okay. And the second part of that
2 that you say you are going to testify that that is
3 inconsistent with a knife dropping on the floor from
4 waist high, I guess?
5 A. No, sir, not what you stated. I'm not
6 going to state that.
7 Q. What is going to be your -- the sum of
8 your opinion on that?
9 A. That a knife that has blood on it,
10 dropped from approximately waist high on to that floor,
11 will produce stains that are consistent with a knife that
12 has blood on it, falling on to the floor.
13 Q. Okay.
14
15 THE COURT: The Court understands that
16 position. Now let's move on.
17 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Okay.
18
19 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
20 Q. Okay. And, there is no -- there's no
21 additional testing that can be done to independently

22 verify your opinion is there? Other than somebody
23 else -- other than you just doing that?
24 A. Well, somebody else can do exactly
25 what I have described and make a determination in their
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3267

1 opinion.
2 Q. But there is nothing further beyond
3 that. No additional tests that can be done other than
4 that, to verify the accuracy of what you observed.
5 A. Well I don't know how else you would
6 go about doing it, no, sir, other than that.

7 Q. Now the experiment where you laid the
8 knife on the carpet let's move to that one?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. Is that -- did I describe
11 that correctly? What was that experiment?
12 A. Where we did basically --.
13
14 THE COURT: Ms. Wallace, can you have
15 a seat at the counsel table, please?
16 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: I'm sorry, your
17 Honor.
18 THE COURT: Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: Where we basically did
20 the same thing that we just previously talked about,
21 where the knife, and a --
22 THE COURT: Would you get that book
23 back from her, and bring it back up here right now.
24 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: I'm sorry, Judge.
25 She was sharing it with me.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3268

1 THE COURT: Well, just put it there.
2 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Yes, sir.
3 THE COURT: Now, let's get on with
4 this hearing.
5 THE WITNESS: Basically, the same

6 thing we just described where the knife had a blood
7 source that was added to it, it was held up to where the
8 blood, for all practical purposes, ceased dripping and

9 then it was just simply laid down, at various times, it
10 was just simply dropped, from approximately waist high
11 again, and then at other times it was actually thrown.
12
13 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
14 Q. Okay. So again, we have the same

15 thing with the waist high, there is no way to identify
16 exactly how high that was.
17 A. To precisely identify that, no, sir.
18 Q. And the times that it was thrown, was
19 it thrown with a hand? I mean, how did you throw it?
20 A. With my hand.

21 Q. Okay. And --
22
23 THE COURT: Well, isn't it sufficient
24 to say it was thrown, and is there a protocol to that, is
25 that the next question?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3269

1 I mean, can we just keep the question
2 in the same line? I understand what you are trying to
3 demonstrate.
4
5 BY MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:
6 Q. How many -- how many -- how many times
7 did you toss the knife?
8 A. I would say approximately 5 to 6
9 times, somewhere in that range.
10 Q. Okay. And, again, you cannot be sure
11 of the exact number?
12 A. No, sir, I said approximately 5 to 6.
13 Q. Okay. And you -- of those, how many
14 times was it thrown -- or how many times was it simply
15 dropped from waist high?
16 A. Now, we're talking about two different
17 occurrences here, but just simply dropping again,
18 somewhere in that same range, 5 to 6 times.
19 Q. Okay. Now, what was the first 5 to 6
20 you were describing? Was that the tossing?
21 A. Tossing. They were separate, yes,
22 sir.
23 Q. All right. And, from what height did
24 you toss it?
25 A. Well, it would depend upon when it was
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3270

1 let go.
2 Q. And I cannot reproduce that, can I?
3 A. To be exact, no, sir.
4 Q. Okay. I could not reproduce -- did
5 you toss it under-handed?
6 A. I did it both.
7 Q. Okay. You tossed it over-handed and
8 under-handed?
9 A. Primarily under-handed.
10 Q. Okay. And, there is no way for me, or
11 anyone now, to reproduce how hard you swung your arm when
12 you --
13 A. No, sir, not precisely.
14 Q. Okay.
15
16 THE COURT: All right. I think we
17 understand. The Court understands that. Can we move on,
18 please?
19
20 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
21 Q. With respect to the expectation of
22 blood on the hand, there is no way of being -- on one
23 hand, not two, is that what Mr. Davis said you were going
24 to testify to?
25 A. I'm not --
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3271

1 Q. That you would expect blood to be on
2 one hand -- at least on one hand is that -- am I wrong?

3 A. What are we talking about here? Blood
4 on the hand in reference to what?
5 Q. Of the assailant?
6 A. Okay. I'm sorry, that was the part
7 that I was not clear on. If the assailant is the person
8 who has left the blood that is running on the door, as
9 you exit the utility room.
10 Then, that would certainly be
11 consistent with blood on at least one hand. Now, whether
12 or not that means there is blood on the other hand, I do
13 not know.
14 Q. Okay. On the sock, the statement was
15 that you expect that -- your opinion would be that you
16 would expect to see the defendant's blood rather then the
17 boys?
18 A. That is incorrect.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. I would expect to see any of their
21 blood on it. I would expect to see more of the mother's
22 blood. I would not testify that I would not expect to
23 see the boys' blood.
24 Q. Okay. And there is no way to
25 independently verify or analyze that statement is there?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3272

1 A. Well --
2 Q. It is simply your opinion?
3 A. Well, I disagree with your statement.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Another person can come in with equal
6 qualifications and do an analysis of the physical
7 evidence and the information that is known, and they can
8 make that their opinion.
9 Q. Okay. But that is what it is. It's
10 an opinion?
11 A. Certainly.
12 Q. Okay. And there is no way to
13 replicate the occurrences that led to that?

14 A. Not precisely, no, sir.
15 Q. And there is no way to conduct any
16 kind of objective test that says that opinion is right,
17 or that opinion is wrong?
18 A. I would have to agree with that.

19 Q. Okay. And, with respect to this, you
20 can't exclude other possibilities, can you? For
21 instance, that only small amounts of the boys' blood is
22 on there. You cannot exclude that as being a reasonable
23 probability?
24 A. I cannot exclude that. I can simply
25 offer my opinion as to what I would expect, based upon
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3273

1 the story given, the physical evidence that is there, and
2 the type of blood that has been lost.
3 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to the
4 T-shirt are you not going to testify about experiments?
5 MR. GREG DAVIS: I'm sorry?
6 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: With respect to
7 cast-off blood and T-shirts, we're not going to testify
8 about experiments?
9 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, we will be
10 talking but an experiment that he did with a T-shirt. I
11 think that is the experiment that he talked to you all

12 about.
13 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: That's the one
14 that I have got the video of?
15 THE COURT: Well, let's get right on
16 it, and just say what it was, and ask your questions.

17 MR. RICHARD MOSTY: Well, I know what
18 the experiment was, so we don't need to do that.
19 THE COURT: Thank you. Let's move on.
20
21 BY MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY:
22 Q. That experiment was, when you are
23 dipping the blood, and you come up with a motion like
24 this? (demonstrating)
25 A. Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3274

1 Q. And the -- that experiment, there is
2 no written protocol for it, is there?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. And again, there is no way to identify
5 precisely how much blood is loaded on to that knife?
6 A. Precisely, no, sir.
7 Q. And in that one in fact, sometimes you
8 dipped it in, and then you went, pretty much straight to
9 movement.
10 A. What are you talking about? Are you
11 talking about the tapping?
12 Q. Tapping into the pan?
13 A. Right. Trying to again, cease the
14 dripping.
15 Q. Okay. But every time you are tapping
16 the pan, you are reloading the point, aren't you?
17 A. No sir?
18 Q. You're not?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. All right. But there is no way that
21 someone can replicate that motion? Precisely?
22 A. Precisely, no, sir.
23 Q. Okay. And, as a matter of fact, the
24 video that you have, doesn't have -- it can't even tell
25 us how many times you did that motion, does it?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3275

1 A. It can't?
2 Q. Well, not on my copy.
3 A. Well, it's all in the withdrawing --
4 Q. How many times did you do it?
5 A. Well, now you may be referring to the
6 fact that at the end of the video I talked about going to
7 a horizontal --.
8 Q. I'm not there yet.
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. I'm talking about this part?
11 A. Okay. That documentation, in it's
12 entirety, was simply to show that that is an occurrence
13 that can occur.
14 Q. But you did not document every move
15 like that, did you? On video?
16 A. Not every single move, no, sir.
17 Q. Then, the second part of that is, and
18 on that one, you didn't take any notes of, "I did this, 5
19 times or 8 times or 10 times"?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Okay. And, then in the second part of
22 the video, the camera broke?
23 A. For the very last stage, the camera
24 broke, but I do have the T-shirt that I can show you,
25 that was done at that particular point, so I mean it is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3276

1 here.
2 Q. So, but as far as some other person
3 being able to look at that, and say this is what Mr.
4 Bevel did, and I will try to replicate it on the video,
5 that video doesn't exist for the second part of that
6 experiment.
7 A. For one occurrence that is correct.
8 Q. Okay. And then, let me try to focus
9 here. You were going to testify about what you have

10 described as cast-offs on the -- can I say right front
11 shoulder?
12 A. You can.
13 Q. Okay. What about cast-offs on the
14 left front shoulder?
15 A. There are some stains over there that
16 could have come from cast-off, or spatter, given the size
17 and location as to where it is.
18 Q. Okay. But it was only mentioned the
19 right shoulder, and that is the only one that you are
20 going to testify about that it is consistent with?
21 A. As far as coming off of the knife?
22 Q. Yes?
23 A. In that particular movement?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Yes, sir.
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3277

1 Q. Okay. And, with respect to that,
2 whether or not it's consistent or not consistent you

3 can't exclude other possibilities for that cast-off, can
4 you?
5 A. Not exclusively, no, sir.
6
7 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else? Is
8 that it, Mr. Mosty?
9
10 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
11 Q. With respect to the statements about,
12 that certain items are consistent with someone leaning
13 over the victims, stabbing, those are going to be things

14 that, again you can -- that you might say are consistent,
15 but you cannot exclude other possibilities, or other ways
16 that those blood stains could have gotten on the back?
17 A. With complete certainty, I cannot
18 exclude the other possibilities.
19 Q. Okay. And then all you can ever
20 really say about those cast-offs is, that, something is
21 consistent, or maybe there is a probability of it?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Okay.
24
25 THE COURT: That's it for the purpose
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3278

1 of the hearing?
2 MR. JOHN HAGLER: As far as our Voir
3 Dire examination, your Honor.
4 THE COURT: As far as the hearing is
5 concerned?
6 MR. JOHN HAGLER: We would like to
7 make some objections, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Well, please make them. I
9 think the Court understands what you want to object to,
10 so let's get on with it
11 MR. JOHN HAGLER: I'll be very brief,
12 your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Thank you
14 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Your Honor, again,
15 we would submit that the State has failed to satisfy
16 their burden of proof under Daubert and Robinson. That
_______ ________
17 the most that we have heard, is opinion testimony, not
18 based on a valid scientific theory of principles.
19 His opinions are no more than what the
20 jurors themselves could conclude. They are not based
21 on -- there is no reliance on the valid scientific
22 principle or theory.
23 As far as the T-shirt, your Honor,
24 again, we have already objected on the fact that it's
25 going to be based on the evidence that has been
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3279

1 contaminated, and no showing of the chain of custody.
2 Therefore, this testimony is not
3 scientifically based on a valid -- on a valid evidentiary
4 basis.
5 Your Honor, in particular, there are

6 areas where there has been no showing that his opinion
7 testimony, personal opinion testimony, is based on a

8 theory that could allow him to testify, as to how the
9 assailant was positioned, how the knife was used, how it
10 was raised and how the victim was stabbed. There has
11 been no showing of that.
12 Likewise, the same thing goes -- or is
13 true, with the fact that there is no basis for his
14 opinion, as to whether or not the knife was thrown or not
15 thrown on the floor.
16 And finally, your Honor, as far as the
17 areas about whether or not the intruder should have blood
18 on his hands; or whether or not the sock should have had
19 more of the defendant's blood or the individual's blood
20 on the sock, that is simply no more than his personal
21 opinion, and he is being presented as an expert witness,
22 and certainly the jury is going to take into account his
23 credentials, and we would submit that it is going to be
24 confusing and misleading to the jury, and we further say
25 that his testimony is not admissible under section 702,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3280

1 703 and 705.
2
3 THE COURT: All right.
4 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: May I ask one
5 question on voir dire?
6 THE COURT: One question.
7
8
9 VOIR DIRE (Continued)
10
11 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
12 Q. There is no academy that -- or
13 certificate that you can obtain to determine how much
14 blood somebody gets on them when they stab someone; is
15 there?
16 A. No, sir.
17

18 MR. JOHN HAGLER: One more objection,
19 Your Honor.
20 THE COURT: One more objection.
21 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Your Honor, we are
22 fully aware, that Rule 704 allows an expert, a validly,
23 qualified expert to give an opinion, on such an issue,

24 but the fact of the matter is, in this case, with the sum
25 total of his opinions, it's more than simply an opinion
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3281

1 as to an ultimate issue, it is simply an opinion as to
2 the defendant's ultimate guilt, and therefore, we would
3 urge that the total -- the sum total of his opinion
4 testimony before the jury, would constitute a violation
5 of the defendant's due process of rights.
6 THE COURT: Thank you
7 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And I would
8 just like to be real clear about one thing.
9 I am not objecting to testimony, for
10 instance, about what a cast-off is, or what,
11 directionality is, or those things that are related to
12 physical properties, of blood in flight, and blood, how
13 it hits, as to, you know, angle of impact, or whatever
14 those -- that is not our objections.
15 Our objection is to the experiments,
16 and the opinions or the conclusions that are drawn from

17 those areas, which I believe, do have a scientific basis.
18 THE COURT: Thank you. Is that it?
19 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Yes, sir.
20 THE COURT: All right. The defense

21 objections are overruled. The Court feels that in view
22 of this expert's knowledge and experience, that this
23 testimony is admissible, because it may assist the jury
24 in reaching a just verdict in this case. And, I think
25 that will satisfy the 401 and 403 balancing test.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3282

1 Too, the probative value far out
2 weighs any prejudicial effect for the reasons stated.
3 That having been done, let's bring the
4 jury in. We have 35 minutes left.
5
6
7 (Whereupon, the jury

8 Was returned to the
9 Courtroom, and the
10 Proceedings were

11 Resumed on the record,
12 In open court, in the
13 Presence and hearing
14 Of the defendant,
15 As follows:)
16
17 THE COURT: All right.

18 MR. JOHN HAGLER: Could the record
19 reflect a running objection, your Honor?
20 THE COURT: Oh, yes, by all means.
21 All right. Let the record
22 reflect that all parties at the trial are present and the
23 jury is seated.
24 Mr. Davis.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3283

1 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
2
3 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
4 Q. Mr. Bevel, I believe I just asked you
5 if you went out there to the residence on November 26th.
6 Did you actually go into the utility room?
7 A. Yes, sir, I did.
8 Q. Did you have a chance to look at the
9 flooring there?
10 A. Yes, sir, I did.
11 Q. What was the appearance of the utility
12 room floor there on November 26th?
13 A. There was, well, the furniture that

14 previously had been there was not still in place. Some
15 of the items, for example, in the photographs, such as a
16 cap and some other items were no longer in place. So it
17 is basically a bare room.
18 The floor was still consistent with
19 the tile that was shown in the photograph. And that is
20 basically it.
21 Q. All right. Did it appear to you that
22 the same linoleum flooring shown here in 38-A through D
23 was still present and on the floor on November 26th,
24 1996?
25 A. Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3284

1 Q. Now, when you went out there that day,
2 sir, did you have in your possession State's Exhibit 67?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. All right. And, when you went into

5 the utility room floor (sic), did you do some testing
6 inside the utility room, sir?

7 A. I did, sir.
8 Q. All right. Can you describe for the
9 jury, the type of testing that you did inside of that
10 utility room that day in November?
11 A. Yes. I took whole human blood, and
12 insured that the knife blade on both sides was covered in
13 blood, and then I simply held it in an upright manner

14 over the container that held the blood, allowing the
15 blood to run down until it stopped dripping off of the
16 pointed end of the knife.
17 At that point from approximately

18 waist-high, I just simply dropped the knife onto the
19 floor.
20 Q. Okay. What were you attempting to do
21 in those tests?
22 A. To, again, as a cause and effect, if
23 there is a knife that has blood on it and it's dropped,
24 again, from approximately waist-high, what sort of
25 bloodstains would result from that occurrence. That is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3285

1 what I was looking for, was the bloodstains that may
2 result.
3 Q. Okay. With the Court's permission,
4 Mr. Bevel, would you please step down here in front of
5 the jury?
6
7 THE COURT: Yes, go ahead.
8
9 (Whereupon, the witness
10 stepped down from the
11 witness box, and approached
12 The jury rail, for the
13 purpose of further describing
14 the exhibit to the jury.)
15
16 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
17 Q. Now, taking State's Exhibit No. 67,

18 can you demonstrate here on this carpeted floor the types
19 of movements that you did during your test on November
20 26, '96?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How did you perform that test?
23 A. Okay. The first thing that I did was
24 to simply kneel down in order to get the whole human
25 blood on both sides of the knife, and I had a container
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3286

1 that held the whole human blood. Then I held the knife
2 just simply in this fashion, (demonstrating), to where
3 the blood coming down to the point ceased dripping.
4 At that point I just simply stood up
5 and turned away from where the container was and then
6 just simply dropped it.
7 Q. Okay. Now, the record would reflect
8 the knife -- when you dropped it, you dropped it from
9 about waist-high; is that right?
10 A. Approximately my waist, yes, sir.

11 Q. Okay. When you dropped it, did the
12 knife appear to bounce off of the carpet and then land in
13 a second location?
14 A. It did.
15 Q. All right. What did the knife do when
16 you dropped it on the linoleum out there at 5801 Eagle
17 Drive? Was it a similar type motion as we saw here
18 today?
19 A. Each and every time it bounced, yes,
20 sir.
21 Q. Okay. So it would actually fall and
22 then it would move to a -- and actually rest in another
23 location; is that right?
24 A. It would rest in an area other than
25 the first location that it impacted.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3287

1 Q. All right. Approximately how many
2 times did you perform those tests out there?
3 A. In that area as well as some other
4 areas, again approximately, that particular drop, 8 to 10
5 times.
6 Q. Okay. In the utility room itself; is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Were certain photographs taken after
10 you had performed those tests?

11 A. They were.
12 Q. Do you recall whether or not we took
13 photographs after each and every time that you dropped
14 the knife or not?
15 A. I don't have personal knowledge of
16 that. I believe that there were, but I don't know if
17 each and every one was photographed.
18 Q. Okay.
19
20
21 (Whereupon, the following
22 mentioned items were
23 marked for
24 identification only

25 after which time the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3288

1 proceedings were
2 resumed on the record
3 in open court, as
4 follows:)
5
6 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
7 Q. Let me now show you, Mr. Bevel, what
8 has been marked as State's Exhibit 125-A, 125-B as well
9 as 126-A and 126-B. Do you recognize these photographs,
10 sir?
11 A. Yes, sir, I do.
12 Q. Okay. Do they truly and accurately
13 depict the test that you performed out there on November
14 26th, 1996, in the utility room?
15 A. They do.
16 Q. Okay. The top photograph 125-A and
17 126-A, do we see the knife actually laying on the floor?
18
19 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Excuse me.

20 Before we go into that, I need to take the witness on
21 voir dire on that exhibit very briefly.

22 THE COURT: Very well.
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3289

1 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
4 Q. Mr. Bevel, you've just testified that
5 you have no knowledge of what the photography was doing
6 other than the photography was being done?
7 A. I'm not sure. I didn't take the
8 photographs.
9 Q. Well, for instance, on those exhibits
10 you cannot say that this photograph came from the third
11 test, the second test, the fifth test? You can't say

12 that, can you?
13 A. Well, other than the order that they
14 occurred, on the roll of film, that would be the only
15 way.
16 Q. But then you would have to go to the
17 roll of film and say, negative number 1, test number 1,
18 negative number 2 or whatever it is?
19 A. That would be the only way that I
20 could do that, yes, sir.

21 Q. Whoever was taking those, whoever was
22 creating the contact sheet, or the notes on the
23 photography would be able to say, these photographs are
24 the first test, these photographs are the second, these
25 photographs are the third?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3290

1 A. Or anybody who had access to that
2 contact sheet or negative.
3 Q. That is not you?
4 A. If I had them in my possession I could
5 tell you, yes, sir.
6 Q. Well, but as we sit here today, you
7 are not able to?
8 A. I don't have the negatives or contact
9 sheets in my possession.
10
11 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: We'll object to
12 what's that number?
13 MR. GREG DAVIS: 125-A, 125-B, 126-A
14 and 126-B.
15 THE COURT: Is that being offered now?
16 MR. GREG DAVIS: It will be in just a
17 moment, your Honor. Yes, sir.
18 THE COURT: Well, whenever it gets
19 offered, state the objection.
20 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Thank you.
21
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
23
24 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
25 Q. Mr. Bevel, again, we've labeled these
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3291

1 as test 1 and test 2 for the sake of simply
2 differentiating that 125-A and 125-B belong together; is
3 that correct?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. 126-A and 126-B belong together, so we
6 have labeled that as test 2; is that right?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Okay. And then photographs, 125-A and
9 125-B, do we see in the first photograph the blade knife
10 actually still laying on the floor, and then 125-B, does
11 that represent the same floor after that knife had been
12 removed off the floor?
13 A. It does.
14 Q. Would the same be true for State's
15 Exhibit 126-A and 126-B? First, photographs showing the
16 knife still on the floor, and then 126-B showing the
17 floor after that knife has been removed; is that right?
18 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
19 Q. And these four photographs truly and
20 accurately depict the scenes that they purport to depict;
21 is that correct, sir?
22 A. That is correct.
23
24 MR. GREG DAVIS: Your Honor, at this
25 time we will offer State's Exhibit 125-A, 125-B, 126-A
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3292

1 and 126-B.
2 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: We object on
3 the basis that the witness cannot identify what is test
4 1, test 2. He said he does not have knowledge of what

5 the photographs are, which test they are, or that you can
6 tie those four photographs together. And for the
7 previous reasons that we mentioned earlier.
8 THE COURT: We understand. All right.
9 All of those are noted. Objection overruled. State's
10 Exhibit 125-A and B, and 126-A and B are admitted.
11 MR. GREG DAVIS: Okay.
12
13 (Whereupon, the items
14 Heretofore mentioned
15 Were received in evidence
16 As State's Exhibit Nos. 125-A,
17 125-B, 126-A and 126-B
18 For all purposes,
19 After which time, the
20 Proceedings were resumed
21 As follows:)
22
23 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
24 Q. Mr. Bevel, if you will stand here to
25 the side here?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3293

1 A. All right.
2
3 (Whereupon, the witness
4 stepped down from the

5 witness box, and approached
6 The jury rail, for the
7 purpose of further describing
8 the exhibit to the jury.)
9
10 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
11 Q. If you could, kind of walk us through
12 these photographs and take us first to 125-A. What does
13 that show us?
14 A. This is a photograph showing the knife
15 laying on the tile floor in question in the utility area
16 after it had come to rest from being dropped at
17 approximately waist-high.
18 Q. Okay. And again, we're looking at
19 State's Exhibit No. 67 in this photograph; is that right?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Did you use the actual State's Exhibit
22 for this test; is that right?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. Okay. And what does 125-B show then?
25 A. 125-B is the same area from
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3294

1 approximately the same angle showing the tile, once the
2 knife from 125 has simply been removed.
3 Q. Okay. What sort of pattern do we see
4 there on 125-B?
5 A. On 125-B we have two different types
6 of pattern. One of them is linear, both from where the
7 knife originally hit as well as up above to where it
8 ultimately comes to rest, there are linear lines

9 consistent with the edge of the knife; and then going out
10 from the linear line in both areas, there is blood

11 spatter that has gone from that impact to the tile
12 surrounding the linear lines.
13 Q. Okay. Now, this line here on 125-A,
14 that we see up here, okay, some distance away from the
15 knife tip. Do you see that, what I am indicating on the
16 right hand portion of that photograph?
17 A. Yes, sir, I do.
18 Q. Was that blood pattern produced when
19 you dropped the knife shown in 125-A?
20 A. It was.
21 Q. Okay. So, we have the pattern shown
22 on the right hand portion, then we also have the pattern
23 shown around the knife; is that correct?
24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. And they are both produced by the same
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3295

1 drop?
2 A. Same drop of the knife, yes, sir.
3 Q. If we can, let's go to 126-A and

4 126-B. Again, what do see we in these two photographs?
5 A. The same occurrence where in 126-A,
6 the top photograph, the knife is shown after it was

7 simply dropped from approximately waist-high on the tile
8 floor, and then in 126-B is the same area, just simply
9 the knife has been removed.
10 Q. Now, in State's Exhibit 126-A, I'm

11 pointing to an area here, which I am going to call the
12 right center portion of the photograph. Do you see that,
13 sir?
14 A. Yes, sir, I do.
15 Q. Okay. And is there blood in that
16 area?
17 A. Yes, sir, there is.
18 Q. Okay. And, was that blood produced
19 and actually deposited on the floor when you dropped the
20 knife shown in State's Exhibit 126-A?
21 A. It was, sir.
22 Q. Okay. Again, looking at 126-B, do we
23 see, again, corresponding area right center portion, and
24 this time do we also see blood that is now from the area
25 where the knife originally was in 126-A?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3296

1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Okay. Both of these patterns -- were
3 both of them produced when you made the one drop here
4 shown in 126-A?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay. Now, if you will just hold

7 this. Now, looking at State's Exhibits 38-A through
8 38-D, Mr. Bevel, do you see any bloodstain pattern in any
9 of these four photographs that correspond to the types of
10 blood patterns that you saw during your test on November
11 26th, 1996?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. The blood drops that we see in 38-A

14 through 38-D, are they consistent or inconsistent with a
15 bloody knife being dropped or thrown on to the utility
16 room floor on June 6th, 1996?
17 A. They would be inconsistent.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
19
20
21 (Whereupon, the witness
22 Resumed the witness
23 Stand, and the
24 Proceedings were resumed
25 On the record, as
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3297

1 Follows:)
2
3 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
4 Q. Mr. Bevel, during your visit to 5801
5 Eagle Drive, sir, did you have a chance to go into the
6 carpeted area of the house?
7 A. Yes, sir, I did.

8 Q. Okay. Let me back up. When you were
9 doing the tests here shown in 125-A, 125-B and 126-A and
10 126-B, was there any fresh blood on that floor, sir?

11 A. At the time that we began, no, sir.
12 Q. Okay. The fresh blood that was
13 deposited, was that the product of your testing, actually
14 dropping the blade knife on to the floor?
15 A. That is correct, sir.
16 Q. All right. Now, let me take you into
17 the carpeted portion of the house. Did you actually look
18 in I believe, what, the formal living area and the dining
19 room of the house?
20 A. That is correct, sir.
21 Q. Mr. Bevel, have you had an opportunity
22 to look at the photographs marked as State's Exhibits
23 111-B and 111-C?
24 A. Yes, sir, I have.
25 Q. Okay. And, have you also had an
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3298

1 opportunity, sir, to look at the carpet that was removed
2 from the family room?
3 A. I have.
4 Q. Were you able to actually see the
5 imprint in the carpet that we see here in State's Exhibit
6 No. 111-B and 111-C, as you looked at the carpet out
7 there?
8 A. That is correct, sir.
9 Q. Okay. Now, when you went out there on
10 November 26th, did you do any testing using State's
11 Exhibit No. 67 in any of the carpeted area of the house?
12 A. I did, sir.
13 Q. Okay. Can you describe for the
14 members of the jury the type of testing that you did in
15 the carpeted area of the house?
16 A. Yes, sir. The same occurrence that we
17 previously described in taking the knife to a container
18 that held whole human blood, to get blood coverage on
19 both sides of the knife blade, again, holding it upright
20 until the dripping ceased from the pointed end of the
21 knife, and then did different experiments from different
22 occurrences; in other words, of laying the knife down to
23 dropping the knife to throwing the knife.
24 Q. Okay. And again, what was the purpose
25 of that test?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3299

1 A. To try and determine if the stain on
2 the carpet, that we previously talked about, from the
3 actual crime scene, if that was consistent with the type
4 of pattern that could be left with a bloody knife, either
5 being laid, dropped or thrown onto the carpet.
6 Q. Okay. Now, looking at State's Exhibit
7 11-B and 11-C, the imprint there on that carpet, sir, do
8 you have an opinion concerning what produced that
9 imprint?
10 A. Yes, sir, I do.
11 Q. Okay. Based upon your observations of
12 that imprint and also based on the testing that you did
13 on November 26, 1996, what is your opinion concerning
14 what produced the imprint shown in these two photographs,
15 sir?
16 A. That it was done from a item that is
17 similar in the configuration as to the knife as far as

18 the, for example, the pointed end, the wide end, the
19 handle, that has been just simply placed in that area.
20 Q. Okay. As opposed to what?
21 A. Dropping or throwing.
22 Q. Okay. Again, would you categorize
23 dropping as being a motion that you had shown earlier

24 with regards to the linoleum floor, where you held it at
25 waist level and then dropped it?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3300

1 A. That would be correct, sir.
2 Q. Okay. And again, throwing would be
3 more of a movement of actually tossing it down on the
4 floor, right?
5 A. With more force, yes, sir.

6 Q. Okay. And, the movement that I am now
7 doing where I am actually just placing it down on the
8 carpet, is that the motion that you are talking about
9 this imprint being consistent with?
10 A. It is.
11 Q. If you either drop this or you toss
12 this knife down on carpeting, what kind of imprint do you
13 see?
14 A. You end up seeing the identical
15 occurrence that you saw on the tile floor where the knife
16 originally strikes, it then bounces to another area and
17 you are able to see the impression from the first contact
18 to the second contact.
19 Q. Okay. Somewhat similar to what we see
20 here in State's Exhibit 125-A, where we have a knife that
21 is laying in one area but we have a sharp edge on another
22 section of the flooring?
23 A. That is correct, sir.
24 Q. Did you observe the same type of thing
25 when you would toss or drop State's Exhibit 67 on the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3301

1 carpet?
2 A. That is correct, sir.
3 Q. Now, Mr. Bevel, let me direct your
4 attention to the vacuum cleaner, which in this case has
5 been admitted as State's Exhibit No. 93. And let me ask
6 you whether or not this is the vacuum cleaner that you
7 inspected during one of your trips to Dallas?
8 A. That is correct, sir.
9 Q. Okay. And, when you looked at this

10 vacuum cleaner, sir, did you see evidence of blood on the
11 vacuum cleaner?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. All right. And as you looked at it,
14 can you describe the type of blood that you actually saw
15 on the vacuum cleaner?
16 A. Yes, sir. There was a bloody transfer
17 on the handle, the upper portion of the vacuum cleaner
18 that would be consistent, for example, with a bloody hand
19 actually grabbing a hold of the handle.
20 Then, as you go down from the handle
21 to the front part, there is a black, plastic piece that
22 holds the bag cover, upright. And on that black, plastic
23 piece there are several low velocity, in other words,
24 very good sized volume blood droplets that are just
25 simply going down to that particular area as well as to
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3302

1 other locations. As you go further down, there is
2 evidence of blood just simply falling downward with the
3 vacuum cleaner in that upright position.
4 Q. Okay. Now, did you see evidence, Mr.
5 Bevel, that blood had been dropped on to this vacuum
6 while it was still in an upright position as it is right
7 now?
8 A. That is correct, sir.
9 Q. And again, was that low velocity
10 blood?
11 A. That is correct, sir.
12 Q. Which as a blood stain analyst would
13 indicate to you, what?
14 A. That the item that was -- the blood
15 was being separated from, which is simply above it in

16 this case and instead of shaking your hand or whatever
17 the blood source may be, there is little movement. It's
18 just simply gravitational pull separating the blood and
19 it falling downward as it separates from the blood
20 source.
21 Q. Okay. Would that blood be consistent
22 with an individual who is bleeding, dripping blood,
23 standing next to this vacuum cleaner and as she is doing
24 that, blood dripping from her on to this vacuum cleaner?
25 A. It certainly would.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3303

1 Q. The stain up here on the handle, would
2 that also be consistent with an individual standing next
3 to this and placing her bloody hand onto the handle of
4 the vacuum cleaner?
5 A. It would.
6 Q. Okay. Now, did you see evidence --
7 and let me just for the record, let me just place this
8 vacuum cleaner down onto the floor.
9 Did you see evidence, Mr. Bevel, that
10 blood had been deposited on this vacuum cleaner after it
11 had been laid on to the floor?
12 A. Yes, sir. There are numerous places
13 all over the vacuum cleaner as blood is found consistent
14 with it being in this position at the time that the blood
15 gets on it.
16 Q. Okay. Would that be consistent with
17 an individual standing next to this vacuum cleaner who's
18 bleeding, and as she is dripping blood, it drips onto the
19 vacuum cleaner, sir?
20 A. Well, both that and simply standing
21 next with the blood hitting the floor and then additional
22 blood droplets impacting to the still wet blood and then
23 going over or blood spatter going on to the vacuum
24 cleaner.
25 Q. Okay. So actually, that individual
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3304

1 could deposit blood on to the floor next to it and then
2 that blood could impact other blood and then could
3 basically bounce up and spatter over on to this?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay.
6
7 THE COURT: I think the defense wants
8 to view.
9 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: I just wanted to
10 see what you were talking about.
11 THE COURT: All right. Come on
12 around.
13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, we can see
14 fine from here.
15
16 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
17 Q. Okay. Just indicating again, Mr.
18 Bevel, am I now pointing to an area basically adjacent to
19 the vacuum cleaner as it is on the floor here?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And as I understood your testimony
22 then, it's possible for that individual who is dripping
23 blood to then drip blood on to the floor area next to the
24 vacuum cleaner for that blood to impact blood already on
25 the floor; is that right?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3305

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And then as an occurrence of the
3 collision of the two blood droplets, that that will

4 produce spatter that then can come up and then produce
5 small drops on the back side of this vacuum cleaner; is
6 that right?
7 A. Or various places of the vacuum
8 cleaner, yes, sir.

9 Q. And you saw droplets on there, on this
10 vacuum cleaner consistent with that also; is that right?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. Mr. Bevel, while you were out there at
13 the scene on November 26th, did you have an opportunity,
14 sir, to look at the portion of the kitchen floor near the
15 sink area?
16 A. I did, sir.
17 Q. Okay. How would you describe the
18 appearance of the flooring when you saw it?
19 A. There was evidence that, for example,
20 a chemical, I believe amido black, that had been sprayed
21 on the floor and it was still visible. And there was
22 some interaction with the chemical with blood that was
23 still there.
24 Other items originally seen in the
25 photographs certainly were not in place; for example, the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3306

1 vacuum cleaner was not there, a throw rug was not there.
2 So things certainly had changed from the original
3 photography of the area.
4 Q. All right. Could you see evidence of
5 blood on the floor?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Okay. What types of patterns did you
8 see on the floor in that area, sir?
9 A. There were low velocity blood
10 droplets, there was satellite created from blood dripping
11 into blood. There were also patterns of blood being
12 disturbed. There were areas where blood had had
13 something that was rolled through the blood, such as a
14 wheel of the vacuum cleaner.
15 Q. Okay. Let me show you State's Exhibit
16 No. 43-E. Okay. Do you recognize what is portrayed
17 there in that photograph, sir?
18 A. Yes, sir, I do.
19 Q. Okay. And, the portion of the

20 photograph that I am now pointing to, how would you
21 categorize this, sir?
22 A. That is a source of blood that was
23 still wet and viscous. That had an item such as the
24 wheel of the vacuum cleaner that was rolled through it

25 and as the wheel is going through it, it's both pushing
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3307

1 blood in front of it as well as to the sides of it,
2 leaving little ridges from where the blood has been
3 displaced from rolling through the wet blood.

4 Q. Okay. With the amido black on the
5 floor, were there other areas of the floor that were
6 similar in appearance to the roll mark shown here in
7 43-E?
8 A. That were similar in appearance as
9 well as dimensions.

10 Q. Okay. As far as width, for instance?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. As you looked at those roll

13 marks, sir, could you make -- could you determine a
14 direction for the roll marks?
15 A. For some of them such as that one,
16 there certainly a direction that is obvious.
17 Q. All right. If you could, if you could
18 just take that photograph and just show us what direction
19 we see in that one?
20 A. It's the same principle if you had a
21 paint brush that has paint on it and then as you make a
22 mark, you go from the most paint to a smaller volume of
23 paint. And it's the same thing we have here; the first
24 contact is where you have the greatest volume of blood
25 and then it dissipates, the correct term is feathering,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3308

1 out, as you go along.
2 In this photograph as I am looking at
3 it, it is going from the proximate center, downward and
4 to the left, the actual motion.
5 Q. Okay. So, actually as we look at it

6 then, did I understand you to say that the motion starts,
7 what I'm going to say is the right portion of that roll

8 mark and it moves over toward the left; is that right?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. On the other roll marks that
11 you saw, were you able to make some determination of
12 direction on those, also?
13 A. On some of them, not all of them.
14 Q. Okay. And, what were your findings
15 there?

16 A. That the item creating the roll marks
17 was going in opposing directions. In other words, if we
18 have a motion that is in this direction that we were just
19 simply looking at, that if you go over to another area,
20 you have got direction going actually in a different
21 direction or almost at a 90 degree angle to the original.
22 Q. Okay. Again, with the Court's
23 permission, if you could just step down here and just use
24 State's Exhibit No. 93. Demonstate the type of motion
25 that you were seeing on that kitchen floor on November
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3309

1 26th, '96?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3
4 (Whereupon, the witness
5 stepped down from the

6 witness box, and approached
7 The jury rail, for the
8 purpose of further describing
9 the exhibit to the jury.)
10
11 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
12 Q. All right, go ahead.
13 A. Okay. It is a motion just simply of
14 the wheel rolling through the bloodstain. However, they
15 are not connected. You then have another area and you
16 would just about have to lift the vacuum cleaner and go
17 over to another area and then proceed to roll again in a
18 different direction from the original location or -- and
19 original direction.
20 Q. Okay. So there were differing
21 directions to these movements; is that right?
22 A. As well as not being connected, so

23 there has to be some movement up off of the floor with
24 the vacuum cleaner.
25 Q. The roll marks that you saw on the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3310

1 floor, sir, were they consistent with State's Exhibit No.
2 93 just simply being dumped over or knocked over in one
3 motion?
4 A. They would not, no, sir.
5 Q. Okay. Would they be consistent with
6 State's Exhibit No. 93 having been rolled in several
7 different directions, in the sink area on June 6th, 1996?
8 A. That would be consistent with what was
9 found, yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay.
11
12 THE COURT: Mr. Davis, have you
13 completed the vacuum cleaner questions?
14 MR. GREG DAVIS: I just have one more
15 question.
16 THE COURT: All right. That will be
17 fine. Go ahead with that one.
18 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir, thank you.
19 THE COURT: I think we will finish
20 that one point and then recess for the day.
21 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir. All right.
22
23 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
24 Q. Mr. Bevel, based upon the photographs
25 that you have seen in this area and your observations on
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3311

1 November 26th, '96, and also your examination of the
2 vacuum cleaner, sir; do you have an opinion about the

3 amount of time that passed between the time that these
4 blood drops are actually dropped on the floor and the
5 vacuum cleaner is then run through the drops?
6 A. I have an approximation, yes, sir.
7 Q. Okay. And, what is your opinion
8 concerning the time period between the dropping of the

9 blood and the rolling of the vacuum cleaner through the
10 blood?
11 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Your Honor, I
12 am going to have to -- this is a separate objection.
13 This witness has not been shown to be an expert in blood
14 coagulation.
15 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. If
16 you have an opinion, state it.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. It would be a
18 relatively short period of time because there is no
19 peripheral staining or skeletalization of the individual
20 blood seen prior to the movement of the item through the
21 blood.
22
23 BY MR. GREG DAVIS:
24 Q. Okay. When you talk about
25 skeletalization of a blood drop, what do you mean?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3312

1 A. Blood drops from the -- or excuse me,
2 blood dries from the outside edges, and then it dries
3 inward. Even if the blood is wiped away within 50
4 seconds from the time that it is actually deposited, you
5 will see a peripheral stain that is consistent with the
6 original area of the outside edges of the blood stain.

7 Q. Okay. Do you see that kind of
8 skeletalization of the blood as shown on the kitchen
9 floor here in State's Exhibit No. 43?
10 A. I do not.
11 Q. Okay. And when you talk about a
12 relatively short period of time, between the drops

13 dropping and the rollers rolling, what kind of time frame
14 are you talking about, sir?
15 A. Because, again of the volume of blood
16 and we're not talking about an individual droplet and
17 that is what I was talking about just a moment ago, but I
18 would say somewhere in the range of several minutes.
19 MR. GREG DAVIS: Judge, I believe that
20 concludes this portion of my questioning.
21 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and
22 gentlemen of the jury, we want to thank you for staying
23 over, and we're going recess now until 9:00 tomorrow
24 morning. And, if we're all here on time, we're going to
25 get going just as quick as we can.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3313

1 Same instructions as always. Do no
2 investigation on your own. You will decide this case on
3 the testimony and the evidence you hear and see in this
4 Courtroom, and nothing else. Do not discuss the case

5 among yourselves for any reason whatsoever, because it is
6 not over yet. When the trial is over you may talk or not
7 talk as you see fit. Do no investigation --
8 Please be seated in the audience.
9 Do no investigation on your own. This
10 will obviously be on radio and TV and the newspapers and
11 if you see anything like that or hear it, just please

12 ignore it. Only decide -- your verdict will be based
13 only on the testimony you hear and the evidence you
14 receive in this courtroom.
15 Wear your juror badge in the

16 courthouse and in the area. And other than, don't wear
17 it out anyplace else. We will see everybody tomorrow
18 morning at 9:00 o'clock. Thank you for coming.
19 If the audience will remain seated

20 please until the jury clears the courthouse. Then we are
21 going to clear the courtroom and those who want to see
22 the exhibits can step back in briefly. We know there are
23 some here that some of the press particularly want to
24 see.
25 All right.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3314

1
2 (Whereupon, a short
3 Recess was taken,
4 After which time,

5 The proceedings were
6 Resumed on the record,
7 In the presence and
8 Hearing of the defendant
9 And outside the presence
10 Of the jury, as follows:)
11

12 THE COURT: Let's clear the room. If
13 you will clear the room, please.
14 Let the record reflect that these
15 proceedings are being held outside the presence of the
16 jury, and that all the parties in the trial are present.
17 MR. GREG DAVIS: I have all of
18 photographs that were taken out there on 26.
19 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Mr. Davis has
20 handed me what he says are all the photographs taken on
21 November 26th.
22 MR. GREG DAVIS: Right. This is just
23 for the record, this will include the photographs that
24 were taken in the carpeted area, the linoleum area.

25 And also there are photographs in here
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3315

1 that were taken of the section of wall that was removed
2 from the family room and I have also got one additional
3 board back here that contains three photographs of the
4 carpeted area, and I am going to leave that in here for
5 counsel to look at also.

6 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: I take it there
7 are no contact sheets?
8 MR. GREG DAVIS: No.
9 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: There were three
10 photographs that were taken of the defendant by
11 Patterson, on June the 6th. And, Lloyd?
12 MR. LLOYD HARRELL: Yes, sir.

13 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: The three
14 Polaroid pictures that you saw that were taken by
15 Patterson, were taken by somebody?

16 MR. LLOYD HARRELL: Beddingfield or
17 Patterson on June the 6th.
18 They were out at Rowlett. They have
19 not been introduced, and we're going to need those. Do
20 you know what I am talking about, Greg?
21 MR. GREG DAVIS: Well, I don't really.
22 THE COURT: Well, whatever is needed,
23 please let them have it.
24 MR. GREG DAVIS: Polaroids though,
25 right?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3316

1 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: There were three
2 of them taken of her in the hospital.
3 MR. GREG DAVIS: All right.
4 THE COURT: Whatever is needed, please
5 let them have it.
6 MR. GREG DAVIS: Okay. We'll
7 certainly look for those tonight.
8 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Can I expect
9 those in the morning?
10 THE COURT: Well, I think if you will
11 stick around, they'll probably have them at 6:30.
12 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Well, I don't
13 mind. I will be happy to stay if you are telling me they
14 are going to get them.
15 THE COURT: Well, can you get them in
16 the morning?
17 MR. GREG DAVIS: Well, I'll tell you,
18 I don't know where they are right now. I have not talked
19 with Detective Patterson about that, but I will speak
20 with him when we leave the courtroom today.
21 THE COURT: All right. Let's see if
22 we can get some tomorrow morning. Again, do you still
23 think you will close tomorrow?
24 MR. GREG DAVIS: Yes, sir.
25 THE COURT: All right. Is that all?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3317

1 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Yes, sir.
2 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
3
4
5 (Whereupon, the jury was

6 Earlier excused for the
7 day, to return on the
8 next day, January 22, 1997,
9 at 9:00 a.m.)
10
11
12 (These proceedings are continued to
13 the next volume in this cause.)
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3318

1 CERTIFICATION PAGE
2 THE STATE OF TEXAS )
3 THE COUNTY OF DALLAS )
4 I, Sandra M. Halsey, was the Official Court
5 Reporter of Criminal District Court Number 3, of Dallas
6 County, Texas, do hereby certify that I reported in
7 Stenograph notes the foregoing proceedings, and that they
8 have been edited by me, or under my direction and the
9 foregoing transcript contains a full, true, complete and
10 accurate transcript of the proceedings held in this
11 matter, to the best of my knowledge.
12 I further certify that this transcript of the
13 proceedings truly and correctly reflects the exhibits, if
14 any, offered by the respective parties.
15 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO, this _____ day of
16 ___________, 1997.
17 __________________________________
18 Sandra M. Day Halsey, CSR

19 Official Court Reporter
20 363RD Judicial District Court
21 Dallas County, Texas

22 Phone, (214) 653-5893
23
24 Cert. No. 308

25 Exp 12-31-98
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3319

1 STATE OF TEXAS )
2 COUNTY OF DALLAS)
3
4 JUDGES CERTIFICATE
5
6
7
8 The above and foregoing transcript, as certified
9 by the Official Court Reporter, having been presented to
10 me, has been examined and is approved as a true and
11 correct transcript of the proceedings had in the
12 foregoing styled cause, and aforementioned cause number
13 of this case.
14
15
16
17
18 __________________________________
19 MARK TOLLE, JUDGE
20 Criminal District Court Number 3
21 Dallas County, Texas
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
3320