Volume 24

1 IN THE CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT NO. 3
2 DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
3
4
5
6 THE STATE OF TEXAS } NO. F-96-39973-J
7 VS: } & A-96-253
8 DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER } Kerr Co. Number
9
10
11
12
13 STATEMENT OF FACTS
14 JURY VOIR DIRE
15 INDIVIDUAL JURORS HEARING
16 VOL. 24 OF VOLS.
17 November 14, 1996
18 Thursday
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2921

1 C A P T I O N
2
3
4 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Thursday, the 14th day of
5 November, 1996, in the Criminal District Court Number 3
6 of Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on
7 for a hearing before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the
8 Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas,
9 without a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open
10 court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse,
11 Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as
12 follows:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2922

1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2
3
4 HON. JOHN VANCE
5 Criminal District Attorney
6 Dallas County, Texas
7
8 BY: HON. TOBY L. SHOOK
9 Assistant District Attorney
10 Dallas County, Texas
11
12 AND:
13 HON. JOHN GRAU
14 Assistant District Attorney
15 Dallas County, Texas
16
17 AND:
18 HON. SHERRI WALLACE
19 Assistant District Attorney
20 Dallas County, Texas
21
22 APPEARING FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2923

1 ADDITIONAL APPEARANCES:
2
3 HON. DOUGLAS D. MULDER
4 Attorney at Law
5 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
6 717 N. Harwood
7 Dallas, TX 75201
8
9 AND: HON. CURTIS GLOVER
10 Attorney at Law
11 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
12 717 N. Harwood
13 Dallas, TX 75201
14
15 AND: HON. RICHARD C. MOSTY
16 Attorney at Law
17 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
18 820 Main Street, Suite 200
19 Kerrville, TX 78028
20
21 AND: HON. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.
22 Attorney at Law
23 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
24 820 Main Street, Suite 200
25 Kerrville, TX 78028
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2924

1
2 AND: HON. JOHN HAGLER
3 Attorney at Law

4 901 Main Street, Suite 3601
5 Dallas, TX 75202
6 ALL ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE
7 DEFENDANT: DARLIE ROUTIER
8 MR. HAGLER HANDLING THE APPEAL
9 AND:
10 HON. ALBERT D. PATILLO, III
11 Attorney at Law
12 820 Main Street, Suite 211
13 Kerrville, TX 78028
14 APPEARING FOR: Witness-
15 Detective Jimmy Patterson
16 only on one date in trial
17 AND:
18 HON. STEVEN J. PICKELL
19 Attorney at Law
20 620 Earl Garrett Street
21 Kerrville, TX 78028
22 APPEARING FOR: Witness
23 Officer Chris Frosch
24 only on one date in trial
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2925

1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 November 14th, 1996
4 Thursday
5 8:30 a.m.
6
7 (Whereupon, the following
8 proceedings were held in
9 open court, in the presence
10 and hearing of the
11 defendant, being
12 represented by her attorneys
13 and the representatives of
14 the State of Texas,
15 as follows:)
16
17 THE COURT: All right. Is everybody
18 ready. Let's bring Ms. Delgado in.
19 How are you today, ma'am?
20 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Fine.
21 THE COURT: Can you raise your right
22 hand, please? Your name is Nora Delgado, D-E-L-G-A-D-O;
23 is that correct?
24 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Uh-huh.
25 (Witness nodding head affirmatively.)
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2926

1 THE COURT: Do you solemnly swear or
2 affirm that you will give true answers to all questions
3 propounded to you concerning your qualifications as a
4 juror, so help you God?
5
6 (Whereupon, the prospective
7 juror was duly sworn by the
8 Court to true answers make
9 to the questions propounded,
10 concerning qualifications, after
11 which time, the proceedings were
12 resumed as follows:)
13
14 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
15 THE COURT: Thank you. And just for
16 the record, it's obvious that you are totally fluent in
17 English. You do read, write, and speak the English
18 language fluently; it that correct?
19 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Uh-huh.
20 (Witness nodding head affirmatively.)
21 THE COURT: Is that a yes?
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
23 THE COURT: You don't need a Spanish
24 interpreter for these proceedings?
25 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: No.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2927

1 THE COURT: Fine. If you can pull
2 that microphone back to you and speak right into it. You
3 are a potential alternate juror in the Darlie Routier
4 matter.
5 Mrs. Routier is the defendant in
6 today's case, and she is sitting there in the olive dress
7 next to her attorneys.
8 From Dallas we have Curtis Glover and
9 from Kerrville we have Preston Douglass.
10 The State today is represented by two
11 Assistant District Attorneys from Dallas, Toby Shook and
12 Sherri Wallace.
13 Now, there are no wrong answers down
14 here. Whatever you feel like saying, please say. You
15 are not going to hurt anybody's feelings. But if you
16 could speak in a loud voice, answer all questions yes or
17 no, don't say uh-huh or huh-uh because Mrs. Halsey is
18 taking all this all down, and she can't do that.
19 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
20 THE COURT: Are you a little nervous?
21 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Okay. Well, just relax.
23 Because like I say, there are no wrong answers, and both
24 sides are just going to ask you a few questions. All
25 right?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2928

1 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
2 THE COURT: Thank you. Go ahead,
3 please,
4 Mr. Shook.
5 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Thank you, Judge.
6
7 Whereupon,
8
9 NORA ILDA DELGADO,
10
11 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of
12 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
14 true, testified in open court, as follows:
15
16 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
17
18 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
19 Q. Ms. Delgado, is that how you pronounce
20 your name?
21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 THE COURT: Is that a yes?
24 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2929

1 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
2 Q. My name is Toby Shook, and I am one of
3 the prosecutors and I am going to ask you questions on
4 behalf of the State.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. And as Judge Tolle told you, there is
7 no right or wrong answers. We just want your honest
8 opinions. You are not going to hurt our feelings in any
9 way. Okay?
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. I believe you checked off, you have
12 not heard anything about this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So, you don't know anything about the
15 facts, anything like that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. And you have lived here a
18 number of years, I guess with your family; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. It looks like some of your
21 younger brothers or sisters are still in school here?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Are you the oldest?
24 A. No, I am the second to the oldest.
25 Q. Okay. And your job you've had for
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2930

1 about a year now, three months, you're a caregiver?
2 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
3 affirmatively.) Yes.
4 Q. Who do you work for?
5 A. Well, I quit my job, my Sunshine Inn
6 Day Care, and now I am working for Tivy High School,
7 Child Development Center.
8 Q. What do you do there?
9 A. I'm a caregiver.
10 Q. Okay. And what are your duties?
11 A. Well, a lot of stuff. I take care of
12 the kids, I play with the kids, I change diapers, and all
13 that stuff.
14 Q. Mostly just taking care of the kids?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Okay. I guess by your description,
17 young kids, infants and toddlers --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- is that right?
20 A. Yeah. Well, I work with a year to two
21 and then three to four, it's different ages.
22 Q. Okay. And how long have you been
23 doing that?
24 A. For like four months, around there.
25 Well, I been -- I worked for a year and so many months at
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2931

1 Sunshine Inn Day Care, and that is my other job that I
2 used to have.
3 Q. Uh-huh. (Attorney nodding head
4 affirmatively.)
5 A. And I used to work with five year olds
6 to ten.
7 Q. Okay. And when did you quit the
8 Sunshine Inn Day Care?
9 A. Like a week ago.
10 Q. Okay. All right. Let me turn your
11 attention to the type of case we're on. And again, we're
12 just looking for your honest answers. Okay?
13 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
14 affirmatively.)
15 Q. You know from what Judge Tolle has
16 told you, this is a capital murder case?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That the State is seeking the death
19 penalty. So, we want to talk to every juror about how
20 they feel about the death penalty. We just want your
21 opinions on it, how you personally feel about it. Let me
22 ask you: Are you in favor of the death penalty as a law?
23 A. Not really.
24 Q. Okay. Tell me about how you feel
25 about it.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2932

1 A. Well, I am not with it because I just
2 don't think -- I don't know, I just don't feel right for
3 people to take lives away.
4 Q. Okay. And that is fine. A lot of
5 people feel that way. You're opposed to the death
6 penalty then?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Because you think it's wrong to take
9 someone's life?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. For the State or anyone?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And is that from your own
14 personal viewpoint? Is it a religious viewpoint on your
15 part, or the way you were raised, the church?
16 A. The way I was raised.
17 Q. Okay. And have you always felt that
18 way?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And is it something you feel
21 strongly about?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. You are against the death
24 penalty because you don't think it's right to take
25 someone's life?
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2933

1 A. Right.
2 Q. And as I said, I'm not arguing with
3 you, but the law requires us to ask questions about that.
4 I thought that is how you felt because
5 when we asked that question kind of in a short way you
6 put, "I am just against it, against that."
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that is what you were talking
9 about? You were against the death penalty?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Let me look at your -- show you
12 your second page.
13 A. All right.
14 Q. We have here a section that says:
15 Which of these statements would represent how you feel
16 about the death penalty?
17 And I would like you to go over those
18 to yourself and see which one best represents your
19 feelings. Okay? You can just take the time to read
20 those. I think there's six statements there.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Okay. Those statements kind of cover
23 a broad range, you know, from how jurors might feel.
24 Some think It's appropriate in all circumstances to
25 people that just say, "I could never participate and
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2934

1 return a verdict of death." Which one -- where do you
2 fit in as far as this goes?
3 A. Right here.
4 Q. On number 5?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. "I could never under any
7 circumstances return a verdict which assessed the death
8 penalty." Okay. That best sums up how you feel about
9 it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And again, is that because,
12 you're -- it's just the way you were brought up?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you just don't think it's right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And that is fine. Again, I am
17 not arguing with you, but the law requires me to go a
18 little further with you. Okay?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. And we don't require anybody to
21 abandon how they feel, their deep convictions, religious
22 convictions, things like that.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. Some jurors are perfect for one type
25 of case and not perfect for another type of case. You
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2935

1 know what I mean?
2 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
3 affirmatively.) Yes.
4 Q. We get people down here that maybe
5 have had a death in their family from a DWI wreck and so
6 they couldn't sit objectively on a DWI case, but they
7 might be fine on some other type. And we get other
8 people that, you know, just because of personal reasons
9 are not suitable for certain cases.
10 I take it from what you are saying is,
11 the objections you feel about the death penalty that's
12 something that is not going to leave you, is it? That is
13 going to be with you?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And, so because of this type of case,
16 you would never be able to return a verdict of death in a
17 case because of the way you feel against the death
18 penalty?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Now, let me be clear. The way
21 the case works, let's just talk about hypothetical real
22 quick, so I can ask you some more questions.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. The first part of the trial just has
25 to do with guilt/innocence, whether we prove the case.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2936

1 If we do that, if we do prove the case, we go to the
2 punishment stage, where you might hear more, a juror
3 might hear more evidence. But once we get to this
4 punishment stage, the jurors then look at these
5 questions, and they get these questions to answer. And
6 let me summarize those questions.
7 That first question, that question
8 asks: Has the State proven that the defendant will be a
9 continuing danger to society? They are asking the jurors
10 to predict how the defendant is going to behave in the
11 future. And if we just have the evidence and prove it
12 should be answered "yes," the jurors are -- they are
13 supposed to answer that question. We're well on the way
14 to the death penalty there.
15 We have got to get a "yes" answer
16 there to get to the death penalty. That is how the
17 procedure works.
18 Then we go to this last question, that
19 is last stop until we get to the death penalty. And that
20 question says: If you look at all of the evidence, is
21 there some evidence that tells you I should spare the
22 defendant's life, and sentence them to a life sentence or
23 recommend a life sentence, or that they should get a life
24 sentence? Or is there no evidence to the contrary and I
25 answer that question "no."
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
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1 If that first question is answered
2 "yes," and that second question is answered "no," the
3 judge will sentence the defendant to death.
4 If they are answered any other way,
5 then it's a life sentence. But those are the only two
6 alternatives, do you understand that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Death or life. The jurors don't
9 answer -- they don't write death in, they don't write
10 life in, they answer these questions. But the Judge
11 sentences the defendant on how you answer those
12 questions. Is that clear to you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Practically the same thing. Again,
15 these questions are just supposed to be answered on
16 facts. Okay?
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. If it is a "yes" and a "no," the Judge
19 would sentence the defendant to death and that execution
20 would take place someday. I don't know if you have ever
21 read about it, you know, but the method of execution is
22 by lethal injection. Have you heard that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. It's by lethal injection. The
25 procedure is the same in every case. There's a "yes" or
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2938

1 a "no" answer, Judge Tolle has no discretion, he has no
2 choice, he will sentence the defendant to death. The
3 defendant would be taken down to Huntsville, Texas and
4 housed on death row. And I can't tell you when, but
5 someday the Judge would issue what is called a death
6 warrant. That death warrant would have an execution date
7 on it.
8 The day before that date, the
9 defendant would be moved to a special unit, the Walls
10 Unit. They will be given an opportunity to say their
11 last goodbyes to family, maybe a couple of friends, and
12 maybe be with a minister. But at 6:00 p.m. our
13 procedures call for guards to come to that cell, walk the
14 defendant down a 30-foot hallway, and into the death
15 chamber.
16 Now, there's witnesses there who stand
17 behind a glass window and watch all these proceedings,
18 but very quickly, the defendant will be strapped down to
19 a hospital gurney, cinched down, legs, chest, arms, and
20 needles will be placed in her arms.
21 The death warrant would be read, they
22 would be given an opportunity for last words. You might
23 read about that someday. It could be anything. "I am
24 innocent, I didn't do it," whatever. But very soon
25 poisons would be injected, the heart would stop, the
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2939

1 lungs would quit breathing, it's all over in about 10
2 minutes.
3 Now, I don't mean to be morbid about
4 all that, but I must put all my cards on the table. That
5 is our goal in this case. You understand that?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. We fully believe that we have enough
8 evidence to convince a jury to find the defendant guilty,
9 and answer those questions "yes" and "no" which would
10 result in her execution. And that is our goal. I don't
11 want to beat around the bush. And there's been over 100
12 executions in the State of Texas.
13 So it is a very real punishment. We
14 get all kinds of people down here, and you are free to
15 feel the way you can. I'm not arguing your position.
16 Some people believe in the death
17 penalty and can participate in this kind of proceeding,
18 and some people can't. And that is fine if they feel
19 that way.
20 Some people -- we have talked to
21 jurors out of that panel that have told us, "Look, I am
22 opposed to the death penalty. I was raised that way. I
23 have a religious conviction against it. I can't
24 participate in this type of setting. It's not, you know,
25 what you prove to me, it's what is in my heart." Do you
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2940

1 understand what I'm saying?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. They would be fine if this was a
4 burglary case or maybe a civil lawsuit or something like
5 that, but they can't participate as a juror because the
6 ultimate sentence is death.
7 That is their objections to the death
8 penalty, it's just not going to leave them. They could
9 never answer these questions, no matter what the
10 evidence, in a way that would result in the Judge
11 sentencing the defendant to death.
12 That is, they could never answer that
13 first question "yes" and the second question "no."
14 Now, is that how you are telling me
15 you feel?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And I know you are a little
18 nervous being down here, but that is truly how you feel,
19 you know yourself. Right?
20 You could never bring yourself to
21 answer those questions in that way?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Okay. And again, I'm not arguing with
24 you, the law just requires we go a little further. Okay?
25 A. Yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2941

1 Q. Do you understand that these
2 questions, let me just read that first one to you. Okay?
3 "Do you find from the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt,
4 that there is a probability that the defendant would
5 commit criminal acts of violence that would constitute a
6 continuing threat to society?" Okay?
7 That is the question that asks the
8 jurors to make a prediction: Is the defendant going to
9 be a danger in the future? Again, that is just a fact
10 question, you know. We put on evidence to try to prove
11 that thing. I have had jurors that tell me, they say,
12 "Look, I am opposed to the death penalty. You can prove
13 that to me all day long." You know? "I can know in my
14 mind that this person is a very bad person, that they are
15 a very mean person, that they are a very violent person.
16 But I know if I answer 'yes,' that person may get the
17 death penalty.
18 "So, either -- regardless of the
19 evidence, I can't answer that question 'yes,' I would
20 have to answer it 'no.' Or, I just won't answer it. I'm
21 just not going to participate in it. If for some reason
22 I wound up on this type of jury, I just couldn't do that,
23 because my objections, my conscience won't let me." You
24 understand that?
25 A. Yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2942

1 Q. And I have had other jurors tell me
2 that if they had to go to this second question, now let
3 me read that for a moment.
4 "Taking into consideration all of the
5 evidence, including the circumstances of the offense, the
6 defendant's character and background, and the personal
7 moral culpability of the defendant, is there a sufficient
8 mitigating circumstance or circumstances to warrant that
9 a sentence of life imprisonment, rather than a death
10 sentence, be imposed?"
11 That is a long question. Summarizing
12 what it says is this: You look at all of the evidence,
13 the jurors would, and they would decide, "Well, look, we
14 know the defendant is guilty. We know there is a
15 danger." They look at all of the evidence and if they
16 think, "Well, I can answer this 'yes' and that will give
17 the defendant a life sentence." There's always a way
18 out.
19 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
20 affirmatively.)
21 Q. Or they can answer it "no" if there is
22 no evidence. And then it's death. I have had jurors
23 tell me, "I am opposed to the death penalty, but if
24 somehow I wound up on this side of the case, I could
25 never answer that question 'no,' even if I didn't think
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2943

1 there was any of this mitigating evidence, evidence that
2 I thought shows a life sentence.
3 "If it was all bad evidence that I
4 heard, I could never answer it 'no' because that is the
5 final stop to the death penalty. I just either wouldn't
6 answer it, I couldn't, you know, mark 'yes' or 'no,' or I
7 would always answer it 'yes' to give me a way out, to
8 give them life and not death. Because they have to live
9 with themselves for the rest of their lives."
10 Is that how you feel about it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. So, it's not a question of me
13 proving these things to you, it's a question of you being
14 opposed to the death penalty? Is that what you are
15 telling me?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'm not going to be able to change
18 your mind about that, am I?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Okay. I mean, that is just truly how
21 you felt all your whole life?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. So, because this is a death
24 penalty case and if you answer these questions with a
25 "yes" and a "no," and you know if you did that, the
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2944

1 defendant would be executed someday?
2 You are telling us and this Judge that
3 you wouldn't be able to do that, would you?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You couldn't answer these questions
6 just based on the facts, your objections against the
7 death penalty are going to stay with you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. All jurors take an oath to
10 follow the law and make their decisions on the evidence.
11 I'm sure you are a good law-abiding person and want to
12 follow your oath. But we can't ask you to violate your
13 convictions and are you just telling me honestly that
14 it's not a matter of what oaths you take, you're telling
15 us that, "I couldn't bring myself -- either I would just
16 refuse to answer them or I couldn't, because of these
17 objections I have about the death penalty aren't going to
18 leave."
19 A. Yes, sir, right.
20 Q. Okay. I mean, you could never answer
21 those questions in a way that would result in a person's
22 death?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. Okay. You have been real cooperative
25 with me and I think I am solid on that. I'm not going to
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2945

1 talk you out of your opposition to the death penalty, and
2 I'm not trying to.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. But the law required me -- requires me
5 to really test your feelings and make sure you feel that
6 way.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. The one other area I want to get into
9 is, in a trial a defendant has a right not to testify if
10 they don't want to. And they can if they want to, but
11 they don't have to.
12 I mean, they could just sit there in
13 silence until after all of the evidence comes in. You
14 said in your questionnaire when we asked about that, that
15 you wanted to hear both sides of the story.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. What I need to know is: Would
18 you require, after the State put on its case, would you
19 want or would you require the defendant to testify?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. I would like to hear both sides of the
23 story.
24 Q. Now, everyone probably wants to hear
25 the whole story. Of course, that is just how we are.
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2946

1 But the law says if a defendant decides not to testify,
2 you can't use that as evidence against them.
3 Some people can follow that law, other
4 people say, "No, certainly if I were not guilty, I would
5 get up there and tell the jury about it. I couldn't
6 ignore that. That would mean something bad."
7 The Judge will say you have to
8 disregard that.
9 Some people can follow that and some
10 people can't. How do you feel about it?
11 A. Well, I don't know, I would like to
12 hear from both sides, to see who would tell -- that I
13 would just by hearing one side, I wouldn't know who was
14 telling the truth and who is not. I'm not good on that.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Who is telling the truth and who is
17 telling a lie.
18 Q. So, you would still want to hear from
19 the defendant?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. But the bottom line is, you
22 have always been opposed to the death penalty and are
23 going to stay opposed to the death penalty?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You couldn't return a verdict that
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2947

1 would result in someone's death?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay.
4
5 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: We pass the juror.
6 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Your
7 Honor, I think based on the questions regarding the
8 presumption of innocence, we submit her for cause.
9 THE COURT: All right. The defense
10 motion for cause is granted. Thank you very much for
11 coming, ma'am. We certainly appreciate it.
12 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Uh-huh.
13 (Witness nodding head affirmatively.)
14 THE COURT: Okay. Let me check
15 something here.
16
17 (Whereupon, a short
18 recess was taken,
19 after which time,
20 the proceedings were
21 resumed on the record,
22 in the presence and
23 hearing of the defendant
24 as follows:)
25
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2948

1 THE COURT: All right. This is Cloie
2 Brandon, 262 on the list, 93 on our list. Is that
3 correct? How are you, ma'am?
4 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I am fine,
5 sir. How are you?
6 THE COURT: Fine. Are we pronouncing
7 it right? C-L-O-I-E, Cloie?
8 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Cloie, yes,
9 sir. Congratulations, you are first one to do that.
10 THE COURT: I am the first one, on the
11 record, please. Ms. Brandon, raise your right hand,
12 please.
13 Do you solemnly swear or affirm that
14 you will true answers make to all questions propounded to
15 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
16 you God?
17
18 (Whereupon, the prospective
19 juror was duly sworn by the
20 Court to true answers make
21 to the questions propounded,
22 concerning qualifications, after
23 which time, the proceedings were
24 resumed as follows:)
25
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2949

1 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
2 THE COURT: Thank you. You are a
3 potential alternate juror in the Darlie Routier matter.
4 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
5 THE COURT: Mrs. Routier is the
6 defendant. She is the young lady sitting there in the
7 olive dress next to her attorneys, Curtis Glover who is
8 from Dallas, and Preston Douglass who is from Kerrville.
9 The State is represented today by two
10 Assistant District Attorneys from Dallas, Toby Shook and
11 Sherri Wallace. Both are going to ask you some questions
12 now.
13 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: All right.
14 THE COURT: There are no wrong
15 answers. If you are nervous, relax.
16 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I'm always
17 nervous.
18 THE COURT: Just relax. If you would
19 be kind enough to answer the questions directly and tell
20 us exactly how you feel. You are not going to hurt
21 anybody's feelings, and what you say doesn't go beyond
22 here.
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: All right.
24 THE COURT: And if you could speak
25 into the microphone, Ms. Halsey is taking all of this
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1 down. And say yes or no as opposed --
2 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Do I need to
3 scoot up?
4 THE COURT: Well, you can pull the
5 mike back to you or scoot up, whatever you want to do.
6 Say yes or no as opposed to uh-huh or huh-uh. We can't
7 take that down.
8 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Not a problem,
9 I'm very direct, sir.
10 THE COURT: That is very good, that's
11 what we need. So, Mr. Shook.
12 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Thank you, Judge.
13
14
15
16
17 Whereupon,
18
19 CLOIE ELAINE BRANDON,
20
21 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of
22 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
24 true, testified in open court, as follows:
25
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2951

1 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
4 Q. Ms. Brandon, my name is Toby Shook. I
5 am one of the prosecutors and I will be asking you
6 questions on behalf of the State.
7 A. All right.
8 Q. And as Judge Tolle informed you, we
9 just want your honest opinions. What I am going to do is
10 go over a little bit of the information you have here in
11 the questionnaire.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. And then go over some of the death
14 penalty rules and laws that apply to this case.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Have you ever been on a jury before?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Okay. Usually we talk to the jurors in
19 a large group, but since this is a death penalty case,
20 the law, well, it says we have to talk to every juror
21 individually. So we're not getting you up there like
22 we're putting you on trial or anything like that.
23 A. I understand.
24 Q. And if you have any questions at all,
25 you ask us. That is what is the best part of this
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2952

1 procedure, is both sides get to ask questions.
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. I see that you're born in
4 Abilene and you've lived in Kerrville the last, about 11
5 years?
6 A. Yeah. Yes, sir, I have.
7 Q. What brought you to Kerrville?
8 A. Marriage.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I decided I didn't want to raise my
11 child in San Antonio.
12 Q. Okay. You lived in San Antonio, and
13 then, okay, and then you came up here. It looks like
14 you're in, oh, you have been in sales, and, I guess, you
15 have worked as a jeweler?
16 A. Yes, sir, I have.
17 Q. Tell me a little bit about that. What
18 did you do with that?
19 A. Everything from the designing to the
20 making, casting, repairing, everything, sales.
21 Q. Do you still do that?
22 A. No, sir, I do not. Right now, I do
23 not work. And right now, I am currently living in Wood
24 Living Center. Which is -- I am away from my family
25 right now.
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1 Q. Okay. What is your situation in
2 regards to that?
3 A. My situation in regard to that, sir,
4 is I have been diagnosed as post-traumatic stress
5 disorder, depression, and bi-polar.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. And I am taking medication for that.
8 You know, I voluntarily put myself in there because I
9 knew I had some things I needed to work out. So, I take
10 classes and I take medication, and I do what I am told.
11 Q. So, are you under a doctor's care
12 there?
13 A. Yes, sir, I am, Doctor Stephenson.
14 Q. Okay. And how long have you been
15 there?
16 A. I would say a month. My contract will
17 be up on December the 9th.
18 Q. Okay. What are your plans after that?
19 Are you going to stay there longer? Or are you going to
20 be in therapy outside of there?
21 A. I will continue -- I will continue the
22 counseling and classes and I will also still be under a
23 doctor's care just for the medication, to make sure the
24 level of Lithium are right.
25 So, you know, I will still be under a
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1 doctor's care for it, but, you know, it's a quick little
2 blood test, so --
3 Q. Thank you for being honest with us on
4 that.
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. We don't mean to pry on these matters,
7 but obviously they can be --
8 A. Well, no, that is very important,
9 because I mean, this is a very important thing. In my
10 opinion, you know, someone's life is on the line here,
11 and you make sure you have very competent people to do
12 that.
13 Q. Okay. You said that, is it
14 post-traumatic stress syndrome?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. What does that stem from? Where did
17 this originate?
18 A. It was a gift from my mother, for the
19 first 14 years of my life.
20 Q. Okay. So, this is something that went
21 on for a long time?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Okay. And recently you made the
24 decision that you needed some treatment, I guess?
25 A. Yes, sir. I lost my father on August
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2955

1 the 9th which sent me into a very bad depression. He was
2 very special.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. And so at that point, I decided that,
5 you know, it was time for me to get some help instead of
6 being around my family and dragging them down.
7 And so I went ahead and did that on my
8 own to make sure that I would be all right for my family.
9 Q. Okay. Well, let me get right to the
10 point then, Ms. Brandon, since you bring up that.
11 Obviously, this is an important case and you can imagine
12 as the State we are seeking the death penalty in this
13 case.
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And these lawyers are going to be
16 fighting us, so it's going to be obviously a very
17 stressful trial, to say the least, I would imagine.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. For everyone, the lawyers, the
20 defendant and the jury.
21 A. Yes, sir, absolutely.
22 Q. Your situation now that you are under
23 treatment actually in this home doing counselling and
24 doing treatment, is this the -- well, it sounds like this
25 might be a bad time for you being called down as a juror
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2956

1 for this type of case, under the stress you're under.
2 A. Well, you know, I tell you I had
3 always wanted to be called to jury duty. I always
4 thought, you know, I would like to try that. And, you
5 know, and then I got that jury summons. I have never had
6 one before in my life.
7 That was right before I checked myself
8 in. You know, I do understand and I am taking
9 antidepressants and I do take stress medication and
10 things like that to handle my stress, but I don't know
11 whether that disqualifies me, or you know.
12 Q. Well, it's kind of -- you know your
13 situation best.
14 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
15 affirmatively.)
16 Q. But if your situation is bad enough
17 where you felt you had to check yourself in somewhere?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And you are only going to be checked
20 out in this next month and then the trial is going to
21 start up.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. We're just talking hypotheticals here.
24 A. Sure.
25 Q. I'm just wondering, from my own point
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2957

1 of view -- there will be plenty of times you will get
2 jury summons the rest of your life.
3 A. Oh, I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure.
4 Q. But is your current mental and medical
5 situation, is that putting you -- if you somehow wound up
6 on a jury, putting you back in a very stressful
7 situation?
8 It is probably not the best thing at
9 this point for you.
10 A. I have thought about that and that is
11 why I wanted to be so honest with you today. I would
12 very much like to be able to participate in jury because
13 I am a very objective person.
14 I do not make decisions without
15 hearing all of the information. But right now, I believe
16 that you're right and that it would -- just being
17 released from there, I am sure that it would put me back
18 into a very stressful situation.
19 I'm sure this woman here wants very
20 competent people to be objective for her.
21
22 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: If we could have
23 just a moment, Judge?
24 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Let me
25 go ahead and ask her a few questions.
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2958

1 THE COURT: We'll go ahead and pass
2 her to Mr. Douglass and then if -- we will let Mr. Shook
3 question again, if he wants to. Go ahead, Mr. Douglass.
4 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Thank
5 you, Judge.
6
7 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
8
9 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
10 Q. You have been very honest with us and
11 we appreciate it.
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And we look for people that take these
14 things seriously and I know you are doing that.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. The way our schedule will work during
17 the day, I would assume, is the Judge would have the jury
18 for Court, we would probably start Court 8:30, 9:00,
19 something like that.
20
21 THE COURT: Nine o'clock we'll start.
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
23
24 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
25 Q. Nine o'clock. There will probably be
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2959

1 a break in the morning and then a break for lunch, come
2 back at 1:00 or 1:30.
3
4 THE COURT: We will have at least an
5 hour and a half for lunch, so don't worry about that.
6 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Okay.
7
8 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
9 Q. One-thirty, let's say. Probably a
10 mid-afternoon break, and we would be done about 5:00
11 everyday.
12 A. Okay.
13
14 THE COURT: At the latest.
15
16 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
17 Q. At the latest. So, you are looking at
18 9:00 to 5:00 with two or three breaks, and a long break
19 in the middle during the day?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. That will be -- then the majority of
22 it will be sitting over in chairs like those. We will be
23 back at the other courthouse.
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. You would be just, you know, listening
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2960

1 to evidence and deciding what that evidence means to you.
2
3 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I do
4 have a call I've got to take, I'm sorry. Be right back.
5 Thank you.
6 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Do we
7 discontinue questioning?
8 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: No, I
9 think we have to stop.
10 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: We have got to
11 cut it.
12 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay. That is
13 fine.
14
15 (Whereupon, a short
16 recess was taken,
17 after which time,
18 the proceedings were
19 resumed on the record,
20 in the presence and
21 hearing of the defendant
22 as follows:)
23
24 THE COURT: All right. Back on the
25 record now.
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2961

1 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: May I
2 continue?
3 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
4
5 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
6 Q. Okay. Talking about the time
7 involved, like we said 9:00 to 12:00.
8 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
9 affirmatively.)
10 Q. With a break, and 1:00 or 1:30 to 5:00
11 with a break.
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Do you feel like the -- just talking
14 about the time involved. Do you think the time involved
15 in being a juror, those hours would cause you a problem?
16 A. Actually, I would have to say no that
17 I don't think it would cause a problem. I mean, I'm not
18 working. I take my medication, it keeps everything under
19 control. You know, it was just a matter of getting on
20 the right medication.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. And I don't feel like that would cause
23 a -- you know, a big problem. I was not aware that there
24 were so many breaks throughout the day, you know, I mean.
25 Q. And I don't think I misrepresented
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2962

1 that, the Judge would obviously correct me.
2
3 THE COURT: No, we will have adequate
4 break, believe me. So you don't have to worry about
5 that.
6 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Uh-huh.
7 (Witness nodding head affirmatively.)
8 THE COURT: Are you on the right
9 medication now? Do you take it religiously?
10 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead,
12 please.
13
14 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
15 Q. And really, the only person that can
16 tell is you. There will be a trial, and obviously the
17 trial will be a very contested trial.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Obviously, it's a trial involving a
20 murder case.
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And I'm not going to beat around the
23 bush. There is going to be periods where there is
24 testimony that you may find distasteful.
25 A. Yes, sir.
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2963

1 Q. There may be photographs you find
2 distasteful.
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. But we're not going to lock you up at
5 night during the trial, to where you can go home, during
6 lunch breaks you can take some time to get out and clear
7 your head, and things like that.
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. I'm not trying to put any words in
10 your mouth, I'm just asking: Knowing that description,
11 and knowing that you would be sitting for those amount of
12 times and listening to the evidence, do you think that
13 without any unforeseen problem, you would be able to
14 handle that?
15 A. Yes, sir, I do.
16
17 THE COURT: Okay. That is fine. Go
18 ahead, Mr. Shook.
19
20 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION (Continued)
21
22 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
23 Q. Well, Ms. Brandon, I didn't think it
24 was a question of time. Right now you are in a hospital,
25 right?
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2964

1 A. I'm not in a hospital, I'm in a living
2 center.
3 Q. A living center.
4 A. But I am out of the there December
5 9th. The only reason that they have put me in -- well, I
6 put myself in, to get on the right medication.
7 I was already on stress medication and
8 I was already on antidepressant, but I was having a great
9 deal of problem still with mood swings and things of that
10 nature.
11 So, what they have done and the reason
12 I am in there now is because they prescribed a new
13 medication, and they are simply monitoring it to make
14 sure, and they will take blood test levels from me weekly
15 to make sure that my medication is right where it's
16 supposed to be, and I have the correct amount in my
17 system.
18 Q. You are undergoing counseling right
19 now?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. What type of counseling?
22 A. It's a private session with -- I don't
23 know her last name, her first name is Debbie, over at
24 MHMR.
25 I also take -- you know, I also take a
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2965

1 couple of courses which will be over by the time -- or
2 classes, that will be over before December.
3 So, really the only thing I have is
4 just, you know, my counseling and that time could be
5 rearranged if need be.
6
7 THE COURT: Well, the Court is
8 familiar with this arrangement. And you are there on a
9 voluntarily basis, are you not?
10 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Oh, yes, sir.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12
13 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
14 Q. So, you are telling us you have
15 checked yourself in there because of your emotional state
16 at the time?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. You felt that would be best for you?
19 A. I felt it would be best for myself and
20 my family.
21 Q. Right. And do you think that by
22 January 6th is when we begin the trial, that your
23 emotional state will be fine, you will be able to sit as
24 a juror and make these decisions just fine on the --
25 first guilt of the defendant and then possibly their
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2966

1 execution?
2 A. I think that with my medication,
3 correct. And, like I said, they are monitoring that now,
4 everything seems to be going fine. They are just
5 monitoring it.
6 I think that, yes, everything will be
7 all right. I take my medication religiously. I, you
8 know, do not fail to take it.
9 Q. Okay. Let me then ask you about: You
10 know that obviously the State is seeking the death
11 penalty?
12 A. Yes, sir, I do.
13 Q. So, I want to ask you your personal
14 opinions about the death penalty.
15 A. That's fine.
16 Q. Do you agree that -- well, how do you
17 feel about the death penalty? Do you think we should
18 have it as a law?
19 A. Yes, sir, I do.
20 Q. Okay. Tell me why.
21 A. Because I think there -- there are so
22 many crimes that just are so heinous that, you know,
23 someone should not be allowed to be supported by the
24 State for the rest of their life in jail, you know, after
25 committing such an act, and maybe taking someone's life,
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2967

1 you know.
2 I do feel that more or less an eye for
3 an eye, I guess.
4 Q. Have you always felt that way?
5 A. Yes, sir, I have.
6 Q. Okay. What crimes -- or have you ever
7 followed anything in the news, any murder cases, that you
8 think that that is an appropriate use for the death
9 penalty or that person deserved the death penalty or
10 anything like that?
11 A. Speaking quite frankly, I believe that
12 O.J. deserved the death penalty and did not get it. If
13 that is, you know, I mean, I followed that one.
14 Q. You followed that one pretty closely?
15 A. Yes, pretty closely.
16 Q. What about this Susan Smith case that
17 was in the news? Do you remember that case?
18 A. That one where she put the children in
19 the car?
20 Q. Uh-huh. (Attorney nodding head
21 affirmatively.)
22 A. I believe that she should have
23 received the death penalty.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. You know? I believe that if a person
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2968

1 is truly guilty of causing harm to a child, then, you
2 know, any kind of harm to a child, because a child does
3 nothing. I mean, it's an innocent -- you know, an
4 innocent human being that deserves to die, or to be
5 beaten for. But, I also, you know, like I said, I don't
6 like to make any kind of decisions until I have heard
7 everything.
8 Q. Uh-huh. (Attorney nodding head
9 affirmatively.)
10 A. Because you can't make a clear
11 decision unless --
12 Q. You hear all of the evidence?
13 A. Everything. You know, I mean, it has
14 to be in your own mind, you know, and in every juror's
15 mind. And how I believe it has to be beyond a shadow of
16 a doubt, you know. But if there is any doubt, you know,
17 that is another animal.
18 Q. Well, let me ask you that, because a
19 lot of jurors say that beyond a shadow of a doubt or if
20 there is any doubt. We have to prove beyond a reasonable
21 doubt, which is the highest burden, obviously.
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. But that doesn't mean all doubt, we
24 could never prove away all doubt.
25 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
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2969

1 affirmatively.)
2 Q. You realize that?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. It's a doubt based on your reason.
5 A. Yes, sir. It's based on the evidence
6 presented.
7 Q. Okay. You brought up O.J. Simpson and
8 that you watched that case, it came in over the news, I
9 guess. They had it on --
10 A. Yes, sir. Every channel, every d