Volume 20

1 IN THE CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT NO. 3
2 DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
3
4
5
6 THE STATE OF TEXAS } NO. F-96-39973-J
7 VS: } & A-96-253
8 DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER } Kerr Co. Number
9
10
11
12
13 STATEMENT OF FACTS
14 JURY VOIR DIRE
15 INDIVIDUAL JURORS HEARING
16 VOL. 20 OF VOLS.
17 November 7, 1996
18 Thursday
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 C A P T I O N
2
3
4 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Thursday, the 7th day of
5 November, 1996, in the Criminal District Court Number 3
6 of Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on
7 for a hearing before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the
8 Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas,
9 without a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open
10 court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse,
11 Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as
12 follows:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2
3
4 HON. JOHN VANCE
5 Criminal District Attorney
6 Dallas County, Texas
7
8 BY: HON. TOBY L. SHOOK
9 Assistant District Attorney
10 Dallas County, Texas
11
12 AND:
13 HON. JOHN GRAU
14 Assistant District Attorney
15 Dallas County, Texas
16
17 AND:
18 HON. SHERRI WALLACE
19 Assistant District Attorney
20 Dallas County, Texas
21
22 APPEARING FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS
23
24
25
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1 ADDITIONAL APPEARANCES:
2
3 HON. DOUGLAS D. MULDER
4 Attorney at Law
5 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
6 717 N. Harwood
7 Dallas, TX 75201
8
9 AND: HON. CURTIS GLOVER
10 Attorney at Law
11 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
12 717 N. Harwood
13 Dallas, TX 75201
14
15 AND: HON. RICHARD C. MOSTY
16 Attorney at Law
17 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
18 820 Main Street, Suite 200
19 Kerrville, TX 78028
20
21 AND: HON. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.
22 Attorney at Law
23 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
24 820 Main Street, Suite 200
25 Kerrville, TX 78028
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1
2 AND: HON. JOHN HAGLER
3 Attorney at Law
4 901 Main Street, Suite 3601
5 Dallas, TX 75202
6 ALL ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE
7 DEFENDANT: DARLIE ROUTIER
8 MR. HAGLER HANDLING THE APPEAL
9 AND:
10 HON. ALBERT D. PATILLO, III
11 Attorney at Law
12 820 Main Street, Suite 211
13 Kerrville, TX 78028
14 APPEARING FOR: Witness-
15 Detective Jimmy Patterson
16 only on one date in trial
17 AND:
18 HON. STEVEN J. PICKELL
19 Attorney at Law
20 620 Earl Garrett Street
21 Kerrville, TX 78028
22 APPEARING FOR: Witness
23 Officer Chris Frosch
24 only on one date in trial
25
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 November 7th, 1996
4 Thursday
5 8:30 a.m.
6
7 (Whereupon, the following
8 proceedings were held in
9 open court, in the presence
10 and hearing of the
11 defendant, being
12 represented by her attorneys
13 and the representatives of
14 the State of Texas, as
15 follows:)
16
17
18 THE COURT: All right. Today is
19 Thursday, November 7th, 1966. Let's go back on the
20 record. Are we ready? Let's bring in Ms. Jefferson.
21 Your name, ma'am?
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Maria
23 Jefferson.
24 THE COURT: Maria Jefferson. All
25 right. If you will just have a seat and make yourself
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1 comfortable.
2 If you will raise your right hand,
3 please?
4 Do you solemnly swear or affirm you
5 will true answers make to all the questions propounded to
6 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
7 you God?
8 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
9
10 (Whereupon, the prospective
11 juror was duly sworn by the
12 Court to true answers make
13 to the questions propounded,
14 concerning qualifications, after
15 which time, the proceedings were
16 resumed as follows:)
17
18 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am. You
19 have been called to be a potential juror in the Darlie
20 Routier matter. Mrs. Routier is the defendant in today's
21 case, she is sitting right there to your far right, next
22 to her attorneys, Mr. Richard Mosty and Mr. Curtis
23 Glover.
24 The State of Texas is represented by
25 Toby Shook and Sherri Wallace, they are Assistant
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1 District Attorneys of Dallas. They are both going to be
2 asking you some questions, there are no wrong answers,
3 there won't be a test. Just answer it as calmly and
4 briefly as you can, and tell your exact feelings about
5 the questions. Fair enough?
6 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes.
7 THE COURT: All right. Are you a
8 little bit nervous?
9 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: More nervous
10 than you know.
11 THE COURT: Well, just relax. And if
12 you can speak into the microphone, and answer yes or no.
13 Ms. Halsey is taking this down, and can't take down head
14 nods and uh-huhs or huh-uhs.
15 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
16 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Shook.
17 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: May it please the
18 Court?
19
20 Whereupon,
21
22 MARIA DELPILAR JEFFERSON,
23
24 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of
25 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
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1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
2 true, testified in open court, as follows:
3
4 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
5
6 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
7 Q. Ms. Jefferson, again, my name is Toby
8 Shook. I am one of the prosecutors on the case and I am
9 going to ask you some questions on behalf of the State
10 this morning. And as Judge Tolle told you, we're just
11 interested in your honest opinions. Okay? This isn't a
12 test or anything like that. We don't want you to answer
13 the questions the way you think we want them answered, we
14 just want your honest opinions. Okay?
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Everyone feels differently about these
17 issues, and that is what we are here to explore. I want
18 to go over some things that are here on your
19 questionnaire, because you brought up some things at the
20 end of it about -- we have a question if you have any
21 personal health problems that would prevent you from
22 giving full attention to the testimony during the trial,
23 and you checked yes.
24 And you put down some information I
25 believe, about your mother having a stroke, and you are
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1 under lot of pressure for several things; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Tell us what is going on in your
4 personal situation.
5 A. I'm sorry. (Witness crying.)
6
7 THE COURT: Just calm down now, it's
8 not going to go beyond here.
9 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Well for one
10 thing, I am an only child, and when my mother had the
11 stroke we almost lost her. And having to deal with my
12 family, my father, my home, my work, it's been very
13 stressful. Due to the fact that I am an only child, I
14 have to help my dad care for mother. She is in a good
15 nursing home, and she is being very well taken care of.
16 But from work I go home for 30 to 45
17 minutes and see what I am going to get started for
18 dinner, when I get home. Then I go feed mother, and she
19 won't let us leave until she is ready to go to bed, which
20 here lately, it's been 6:30 to seven o'clock. Then I
21 still have to go home and feed my father, feed my family.
22 All summer long we haven't done
23 anything, we haven't had a vacation. My husband and I
24 haven't had a vacation. We didn't get to do anything due
25 to the fact of my mother. His mother had a triple
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1 bypass, she has had a leg amputated, so everything is
2 coming down.
3 Q. Okay. So, at your present situation,
4 you have a lot of things going on in your life.
5 A. Yes. It's hard for me, like you ask
6 me a question, I just break down. You know?
7 Q. Right. Would you say you are just not
8 emotionally stable at all at this time?
9 A. Not at this time. I had a friend tell
10 me to go to the doctor to get some antidepressants,
11 because by the end of the weekend, or by Friday, I want
12 to go home and rest, and I can't.
13 I am constantly having to do things
14 for people. You know, not only for my family, but I have
15 to go and help my dad with clothing and --
16
17 THE COURT: Well, ma'am, thank you,
18 we're not trying to delve entirely into your life. Any
19 motions, gentlemen?
20 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: We can agree,
21 Judge.
22 MR. CURTIS GLOVER: We can agree,
23 Judge.
24
25 (Whereupon, the above
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1 mentioned item was
2 marked for
3 identification only
4 as Court's No. 10,
5 after which time the
6 proceedings were
7 resumed on the record
8 in open court, as
9 follows:)
10
11 THE COURT: Okay, both sides can
12 agree. Thank you for coming, ma'am. You can relax, and,
13 please don't talk about what went on in here until the
14 trial is over. It will be most appreciated. Thank you
15 very much.
16 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I'm sorry.
17 THE COURT: Don't worry about a thing,
18 don't worry about a thing.
19 Ma'am, please don't talk about the
20 case to anybody until the trial is over. The trial will
21 be over in the latter part of January or the first part
22 of February, then you may talk or not talk as you see
23 fit. Fair enough?
24 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Fair enough.
25 THE COURT: Thank you very much,
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1 ma'am. I hope things go better for you. Thank you.
2 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Thank you.
3
4 (Whereupon, the above
5 mentioned item was
6 received in evidence
7 for record purposes
8 only, after which time,
9 the proceedings were
10 resumed on the record,
11 as follows:)
12
13 THE CLERK: The next one is here.
14 THE COURT: All right. What is his --
15 her name? Is that Ms. Scharein --
16 THE CLERK: Nelda Bill.
17 THE COURT: Nelda Bill number 62. All
18 right. Come on in.
19 You are Ms. Nelda Bill. N-E-L-D-A,
20 Ozuna, O-Z-U-N-A, Bill, B-I-L-L.
21 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes.
22 THE COURT: Is that correct?
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes.
24 THE COURT: This is number 62 on our
25 list, number 183 on the jury list. If you can raise your
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1 right hand, please.
2 Do you solemnly swear or affirm that
3 you will true answers make to all questions propounded to
4 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
5 you God?
6
7 (Whereupon, the witness
8 Was duly sworn by the
9 Court, to speak the truth,
10 The whole truth and
11 Nothing but the truth,
12 After which, the
13 Proceedings were
14 Resumed as follows:)
15
16 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
17 THE COURT: Thank you. Ma'am, you
18 have been called here today as a potential juror in the
19 Darlie Routier matter. Mrs. Routier is the defendant in
20 this case, as I told you earlier. Mrs. Routier is
21 sitting over there to your far right, with her attorneys
22 are Richard Mosty and Mr. Curtis Glover.
23 The State is represented by Mr. Toby
24 Shook and Ms. Sherri Wallace. They are Assistant
25 District Attorneys from Dallas. Both sides are going to
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1 ask you some questions, there are no wrong answers. You
2 can be a member of the Flat Earth Society and nobody is
3 going to disagree with you. Just give your answers as
4 succinctly possible, and answer them very directly. Fair
5 enough?
6 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
7 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead,
8 please, Mr. Shook.
9
10 Whereupon,
11
12 NELDA OZUNA BILL,
13
14 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of
15 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
17 true, testified in open court, as follows:
18
19 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
20
21 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
22 Q. Mrs. Bill, again, my name is Toby
23 Shook, I am one of the prosecutors. I will be asking you
24 some questions on behalf of the State this morning.
25 As Judge Tolle told you, all we're
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1 interested in are your honest opinions. I want to go
2 over some of the things here in your questionnaire and
3 talk to you about some areas of the law that we go over
4 with every juror. Okay?
5 Have you ever been down on jury
6 service before?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Okay. We usually talk with the jurors
9 in a big group, but we do it through individual voir dire
10 because the law prescribes it because it is a death
11 penalty case.
12 We're not trying to put you on trial
13 or anything like that, but each side gets a little while
14 to talk with you.
15 I don't believe you probably know any
16 of the Dallas attorneys; is that right?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Any of the prosecutors or any of the
19 defense attorneys?
20 A. No.
21 Q. From the Dallas area?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. There have been two Kerrville
24 attorneys that have been retained to represent Mrs.
25 Routier also. Mr. Richard Mosty, do you know Mr. Mosty?
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1 A. Through work, yes, sir.
2 Q. Okay. What type of work do you do?
3 A. I work for a title company.
4 Q. Okay. And you come in contact with
5 Mr. Mosty through that work?
6 A. Some.
7 Q. Okay. How well do you know him?
8 A. I don't.
9 Q. Okay. You just know who he is?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. All right. Do you think that would
12 affect you in any way?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Okay. Do you know the other attorney,
15 Preston Douglass?
16 A. No, sir, I don't.
17 Q. Okay. And I believe you had listed
18 that you were a witness at one time in your brother's
19 trial; is that right?
20 A. It was just a city-type disturbance.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. It was very small.
23 Q. What exactly was that?
24 A. It was an argument.
25 Q. An argument?
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1 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
2 affirmatively.)
3 Q. Were you a witness to it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You had a city trial over it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What happened in that case?
8 A. My brother -- we were all at a
9 gathering, and this guy kept coming up and bothering him.
10 And my brother kept telling him to get away and he
11 wouldn't, so it started into a fight and he filed
12 charges, but the other guy was guilty.
13 Q. He was found guilty?
14 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
15 affirmatively.)
16 Q. Okay. And I believe there was --
17 yeah, back in, it looks like years ago, back in '71 you
18 knew someone by the name Paul Antevorros (phonetic
19 spelling), charged with murder.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Charged with murder?
22 A. Manslaughter, I believe.
23 Q. How do you know him?
24 A. He was a personal friend.
25 Q. Okay. So, that happened, I guess,
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1 about 26 years ago, or 25 years ago now?
2 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
3 affirmatively.)
4 Q. Do you remember any of the facts of
5 the case at all?
6 A. It was a bar fight, you know, I wasn't
7 there.
8 Q. You were not a witness to it or
9 anything?
10 A. No, he was just a friend.
11 Q. Do you feel he was treated fairly from
12 what you knew about the case?
13 A. Well, I didn't know him real well at
14 the time. I just, you know, was not a close friend. And
15 I don't know all the details, all I know is that it
16 happened and the lights were off, and nobody really knew
17 what happened.
18 Q. Okay. You checked off, also, that you
19 have heard some of the publicity, I believe, reading --
20 the radio, TV, and newspaper in this case?
21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. That is fine. Obviously, the reason
24 we're here is because there was a lot of publicity, so
25 moving it here would also cause some, but tell us what
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1 you remember hearing about the case?
2 A. Just that somebody went in through the
3 window, and just basically what it said in the newspaper,
4 that the children were killed.
5 Q. Did you form any opinions at all about
6 what you read?
7 A. Kind of, yes, sir.
8 Q. Okay. Tell us what those are?
9 A. Well, you know, the majority of the
10 time it's a family member that does it. And it's just --
11 that stays in my mind.
12 Q. Okay. I mean, do you get that from
13 other things you have read?
14 A. Well, in other cases, yes. Things
15 that have happened and what I have read in the
16 newspapers.
17 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this then:
18 Are you saying, then, in your mind, you might have some
19 feelings that Mrs. Routier is guilty?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Well, then the question I need
22 to ask you is this: It's okay to form opinions as to
23 what you read. I mean, we form opinions on what we read
24 all the time. But I need to know is if your opinion is
25 in your mind and it's a conclusion you have reached in
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1 your mind that you think it is going to affect your
2 verdict in this case?
3 A. It would
4
5 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: We submit the
6 juror.
7 THE COURT: All right. Thank you for
8 coming, ma'am, you are excused.
9 Ma'am, don't discuss any of your
10 testimony here today, please, until the trial is over
11 with, the first part of February. We do have a gag order
12 where I can impose monetary or jail time sanctions. I am
13 not threatening you, I know that won't be necessary.
14 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir, I
15 understand.
16 THE COURT: Thank you, you bet.
17 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Judge, we will
18 offer Court's Exhibit No. 10.
19 THE COURT: All right, No. 10, Court's
20 Exhibit is admitted. That is fine.
21
22 (Whereupon, a short
23 recess was taken,
24 after which time,
25 the proceedings were
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1 resumed on the record,
2 in the presence and
3 hearing of the defendant
4 as follows:)
5
6 THE COURT: Okay, we're ready. Let's
7 go back on the record after a short recess.
8 This is number 185, number 63 on our
9 list. How are you doing, sir?
10 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Good morning.
11 THE COURT: You are Dock, D-O-C-K,
12 Rollins, R-O-L-L-I-N-S; is that right?
13 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
14 THE COURT: That is number 185 on the
15 juror's list, 63 on our list. If you will raise your
16 right hand, please?
17 Do you solemnly swear or affirm that
18 you will true answers make to all questions propounded to
19 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
20 you God?
21
22 (Whereupon, the prospective
23 juror was duly sworn by the
24 Court to true answers make
25 to the questions propounded,
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1 concerning qualifications, after
2 which time, the proceedings were
3 resumed as follows:)
4
5 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Rollins, you are here
7 as a potential juror in the Darlie Routier matter. This
8 is Mrs. Routier, the defendant. She is sitting right
9 there to your far right with her attorneys, Mr. Richard
10 Mosty from Kerrville and Mr. Curtis Glover from Dallas.
11 The State is represented by two
12 Assistant District Attorneys from Dallas County, Toby
13 Shook and Sherri Wallace.
14 They are going to be asking you
15 questions. No wrong answers; won't be a test. Just
16 answer it as briefly and succinctly as you can. And if
17 you could say yes or no instead of uh-huh or huh-uh, I
18 know you won't, because Ms. Halsey takes all of this
19 down.
20 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
21 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Go
22 ahead, Mr. Shook.
23
24
25
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1 Whereupon,
2
3 DOCK ADDISON ROLLINS,
4
5 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of
6 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
8 true, testified in open court, as follows:
9
10 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
13 Q. Mr. Rollins, again, my name is Toby
14 Shook, I am one of the prosecutors on the case. I will
15 be asking you some questions on behalf of the State this
16 morning. I am going to go over just some of the things
17 you filled out here on your questionnaire, and then we
18 will go over how you feel about the death penalty and
19 some of the laws that apply. Okay?
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. I noticed that you -- it looks like
22 you lived in Houston and work for Southwestern Bell?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Okay. And it looks like you did a
25 little bit of everything with them; is that right?
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1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. What all were your duties with
3 Southwestern Bell?
4 A. Sir, I started out at the very
5 beginning and I worked in every department at
6 Southwestern Bell except being an operator.
7 Q. Okay. So, you have done a little
8 bit --
9 A. I maintained the switchboards, but I
10 never was classed as an operator.
11 Q. Okay. And then you have lived here in
12 Kerrville for the past 11 years?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay. I don't believe you know any of
15 the Dallas attorneys involved in the case for the State
16 or the defense; is that right?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. There's a couple of Kerrville
19 attorneys that have also been retained for the defense,
20 Mr. Mosty and Preston Douglass. Do you know either one
21 of them?
22 A. No, sir.
23 Q. Okay. And I see that you have served
24 on a jury before; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. That was, I believe, you said a drug
2 case?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Was that in Houston?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. How long ago was that?
7 A. Probably 20 years ago.
8 Q. Okay. And the verdict was guilty?
9 A. No, sir, it was a hung jury.
10 Q. Hung jury? Okay. Tell me a little
11 bit about that case.
12 A. The person had been caught and as the
13 policeman walked up to the car, and they threw the
14 evidence out, and we had one lady on the jury who was
15 given a parking ticket, and she said all policemen were
16 crooks. And she would not --
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. It was just that simple, we had one
19 person that didn't like the policemen.
20 Q. Okay. So, it was 11 to 1?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And that is the only time you have
23 served on a jury?
24 A. No, sir. I served once here in
25 Kerrville on a same thing. It was a narcotics case of a
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2161

1 doctor who was dispensing narcotics illegally.
2 Q. Okay. And what happened on that case?
3 A. It was guilty.
4 Q. Did the jury assess punishment or did
5 the Judge? Or do you recall?
6 A. It was the Judge, I believe, sir. I
7 don't recall assessing any punishment.
8 Q. Okay. Did you have -- as far as your
9 jury experiences go, did those go pretty smoothly?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Okay. When we're selecting a capital
12 jury, we do it a little differently. Do you recall that
13 from your prior jury service that everyone is talked to
14 kind of in one large group? But since this is a death
15 penalty case, we interview every juror individually.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. I want to get right at the heart of
18 the matter. You know that the State is seeking the death
19 penalty in this case?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And, so, we want to talk to each juror
22 about the death penalty. Do you agree that we should
23 have the death penalty as a law in this State?
24 A. Yes, sir. Mainly, because I have been
25 taught, and I believe, there is some place in the Bible
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1 that says "An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth."
2 For having the death penalty, per se, no, sir.
3 Q. Okay. Tell me a little bit about
4 that.
5 A. Well, I would not think that you would
6 have the death penalty just to have the death penalty and
7 use it randomly. I think if a person is quite serious --
8 if you have a law, then I think we should uphold the law.
9 If you don't like the law, change the law. As long as it
10 is on the books, I think it should be upheld.
11 Q. Okay. What types of cases do you
12 think it should be upheld in?
13 A. Sir, I don't know how to answer that,
14 could you ask it a little bit different?
15 Q. Well, let me ask you this, and you
16 probably don't go around thinking things like this
17 because it is kind of a morbid -- morbid thoughts. Do
18 any cases come to mind, anything maybe you have seen in
19 the news or heard about that you think, well, this is the
20 type of case I think could be deserving of the death
21 penalty?
22 A. No, sir, but I would think the death
23 penalty should be if someone planned or set about or --
24 let me say this, if it was premeditated and a lot of
25 planning went into it, that is it. Spontaneous, that is
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1 questionable. Defense, that is questionable. If they
2 set out and planned this, I think that would --
3 Q. Let me go over kind of how the law is
4 set up here in Texas. There are only certain types of
5 crimes that we can invoke the death penalty. First of
6 all, it has to be a murder case, but not every murder
7 case. We have -- well, let me give you an example. If I
8 suddenly just pulled out a gun and shot Ms. Wallace, a
9 cruel murder in front of everyone here, it is not a death
10 penalty in Texas. I could get life in prison, but not a
11 death penalty case.
12 For it to come under our death penalty
13 statute, you have to have a murder plus something else.
14 For example, murder during felony, you go in -- you have
15 probably read about the situations where someone goes in
16 and robs a grocery store and shot the clerk during the
17 robbery. That could be a death penalty case in Texas
18 because it happens during a felony. If someone comes and
19 breaks into a house and kills someone in there, one of
20 the homeowners, that could be a death penalty case.
21 Murder during a rape or a kidnapping or an arson, those
22 types of situations could be death penalty cases.
23 Also, if you murder a police officer
24 while he is on duty or a fireman on duty, it could be a
25 death penalty case.
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1 Murder for hire, someone that just
2 kills someone for money, could be a death penalty case.
3 Or your mass murder situations or the
4 serial killer situations. And, in addition, the type of
5 case we have indicted here. And I believe that
6 indictment is in front of you. If you could take a
7 moment to read that to yourself, and just the printed
8 portion there in the middle.
9 A. All right.
10 Q. All right. That sets out the
11 allegations of intentional killing of a child under the
12 age of six. That type of case falls under our death
13 penalty statute, of course, depending on the facts.
14 Let me ask you: Is that the type of
15 case you feel personally, and I'm not asking you for your
16 verdict because you have not heard from any witnesses,
17 but is that the type of case you feel that could be
18 appropriate for the death penalty under the proper
19 circumstances?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Okay. Those other areas I went over,
22 murders that occur during a felony, murders of a police
23 officer, are those also the types of murders you think
24 could be appropriate for the death penalty?
25 A. Well, sir, I would like to know the
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1 circumstances. For example, you mentioned that if
2 someone went in to rob somebody, they planned to do that,
3 that was not a spontaneous thing. To kill a police
4 officer, there are all kind of circumstances that prevail
5 there. Was it something that happened off duty, that
6 they run together when he was on duty. So, personally, I
7 would like to know some circumstances.
8 Q. And, as for this particular case, I
9 can't get into the facts, obviously.
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Okay. But those other situations
12 again, like you say, there can be all different types of
13 fact situations.
14
15 THE COURT: Sir, you are just going to
16 be asked general questions by both sides, they can't get
17 into the facts of this case.
18 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Right, I
19 understand, sir.
20 THE COURT: All right. Good.
21
22 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
23 Q. You bring up a good point, though. A
24 lot of jurors bring up the word "premeditation", was it
25 planned. And when you think about premeditation in your
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1 own mind, are you talking about a crime that was planned
2 out far along in advance, or could it happen rather
3 quickly?
4 A. It could happen quickly. If you went
5 into the next room to get a weapon that wasn't with you,
6 to me, you planned to use that weapon when you went into
7 the room to get it. So, if two people were just getting
8 in a fight here that is one thing, but if you go to get a
9 weapon, to me, that is something else. Then you are
10 planning to use it.
11 Q. Okay. So you don't have to sit down
12 and think about it for days on end or anything like that,
13 but if you make a determined decision to go and kill; is
14 that what you're talking about?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. We have always seen these situations
17 of maybe two guys drinking in a bar, exchange some heated
18 words, and a fight breaks out, more of a -- maybe they
19 are fighting over a woman, who knows. That is not what
20 you are talking about?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. For a death penalty case. You are
23 talking about someone makes a determined effort to kill
24 someone?
25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. Okay. The way -- let me kind of go
2 over the procedure of how the trial would work. It is
3 divided into two parts. The first part is the
4 guilt/innocence stage. We have to prove that indictment
5 to you beyond a reasonable doubt. Okay? Now, obviously,
6 if we don't do that, it is a not-guilty finding.
7 If we do prove that to you beyond a
8 reasonable doubt, we go to the second stage of the trial,
9 okay? Now, the first part of the trial we have to prove
10 the indictment -- the facts involved in the crime itself.
11 The second part you might hear additional evidence, in
12 the punishment phase. If you do hear additional evidence
13 or even if you hear very little, you will get these
14 questions at the end of that. And the jury answers these
15 questions, and I am going to go over those in more detail
16 in a moment, but they are "yes" or "no" questions.
17 This first question is a fact question
18 that the jury is called on to answer it. Basically it
19 says this: Has the State proven that the defendant would
20 be a continuing danger to society? Okay?
21 If we prove that "yes," you move on to
22 the next question, and the next question is what we call
23 the mitigating question. It allows the jurors to review
24 all of the evidence that they have heard. And if they
25 think, in their hearts and in their minds, that a life
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1 sentence should be imposed rather than a death sentence,
2 they can answer that question "yes."
3 However, if they reviewed the
4 evidence, and they don't think there is any mitigating
5 evidence, they will answer it "no." If they answer that
6 second question "no," the Judge has no choice in this
7 case, he would sentence the defendant to death. If you
8 answer it any other way, the Judge would sentence the
9 defendant to life. Okay?
10 But those are the two alternatives,
11 the two possible outcomes once the defendant has been
12 found guilty of capital murder, a life sentence or a
13 death sentence. And the Judge sentences according to how
14 you answer these questions.
15 Is that clear to you?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. You know from living in Texas all of
18 your life, that executions do take place. Okay? Some
19 states have the death penalty statute and never invoke
20 it, but Texas does. We have over 100 people since the
21 death penalty has been reinstituted that have been
22 executed. Okay?
23 Many jurors have answered these
24 questions, and, like I said, there have been over 100
25 executions take place.
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1 You have told me that
2 philosophically -- well, maybe not philosophically, but
3 you feel that since the death penalty statute is on the
4 books, you think it should be enforced in the proper
5 circumstances.
6 I want to know if you are the type of
7 juror who can listen to the evidence and that if we do
8 prove these things to you, you could answer these
9 questions in the way, knowing that the defendant would be
10 executed someday?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. I take it you are not
13 volunteering for the job?
14 A. Nope.
15 Q. But if you were chosen to sit on this
16 jury, you could do that?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. In a criminal case, and you are
19 familiar with this because you have been over a couple.
20 The State, obviously, has the burden of proof and we have
21 to put on witnesses.
22 We can do that two ways: We call that
23 direct evidence or indirect evidence. Direct evidence is
24 an eyewitness to the case. All right? Maybe, in your
25 case, it was the police officer that saw the drugs come
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1 out of the car when he made the arrest. He was an
2 eyewitness, saw an event, to the offense.
3 You also have what we call
4 circumstantial evidence, I am sure you are familiar with.
5 That is any other type of evidence that links the
6 defendant to the crime. It could be the DNA evidence,
7 you have heard of DNA, I'm sure?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Blood evidence; scientific evidence,
10 hair, fiber; it could be fingerprints; blood spatter
11 evidence; the crime scene itself what that could tell
12 investigators and the jury about the case; statements
13 made by the defendant, before, during, and after the
14 crime; all of these things, anything but a direct
15 eyewitness is circumstantial evidence.
16 Now, many times in a murder case all
17 the State has to rely on is circumstantial evidence. The
18 reason for that being, you have the person that committed
19 the murder and the person that was killed, obviously.
20 The law says that there is no
21 difference between the two types of evidence. The State
22 still has the same burden, to prove beyond a reasonable
23 doubt.
24 What I need to know is: If the State
25 proves its case using solely circumstantial evidence, and
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1 we prove that to you beyond a reasonable doubt, would you
2 be able to find the defendant guilty?
3 A. Well, to answer that, I would just
4 have to hear it, sir. To give you an answer right now, I
5 can't honestly do it.
6 Q. Okay. I know you have to hear the
7 evidence, but I want to know is -- are you predisposed to
8 be against circumstantial evidence, or is your mind open?
9 A. My mind is open, that is the reason I
10 didn't answer you yes or no.
11 Q. Okay. Fair enough then. Let me go
12 over another part of the law with you. You often hear
13 the term "motive," the reason a crime occurred,
14 especially in a murder case.
15 When the evidence is produced to the
16 jury, many times the motive becomes very clear. Okay?
17 Other times it may not be clear at all. Everyone might
18 have their own opinion on it. There could be several
19 possible motives. It could be what sometimes is called
20 just a senseless killing, and no motive is apparent, it
21 is locked away in the killers mind, and we may never know
22 what it is. The person is just as dead, the proof is
23 still there, but we don't know what the motive is.
24 In Texas, the law does not require the
25 State to prove what the motive is. We just have to prove
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1 those allegations that you have read to get a guilty
2 verdict, we don't have to prove the motive. Would you be
3 able to follow that law?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay. I want to go then into some of
6 these punishment issues, okay? Like I said, you don't
7 get to these unless the defendant was found guilty of
8 capital murder. At that point, we would move to the
9 punishment stage, and you may hear additional evidence.
10 You could hear evidence about the
11 person's background, maybe their criminal history, or
12 moral character, anything like that. Good or bad, it
13 could go both ways.
14 At the end of that evidence, you get
15 this first question. It starts out with a "no" answer
16 and we have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it
17 should be answered "yes."
18 If you would read that first question
19 to yourself, please.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. It's a fact question. It calls for
22 the jurors to make a prediction on how the defendant will
23 behave in the future. Let me ask you: Do you think --
24 and again, I can't get into any facts, but just looking
25 at what that question asks you -- do you think you could
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1 answer that question if it was proven to you beyond a
2 reasonable doubt?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Okay. What kinds of things would be
5 important for you to know? Or would you want to know
6 before you answered that question?
7 A. The purpose for this crime, and would
8 it -- you think that someone is going to do this in the
9 future.
10 For example: Robbery, drive-by
11 shootings, or things like that, is what you mentioned a
12 moment ago. But I would want to know how this would look
13 into the future.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. For example, a man and his wife, we
16 only have one wife or one husband, so we are not going to
17 go down the street killing wives and husbands.
18 Q. Okay. Do you feel if a man kills his
19 wife, say a brutal killing, his wife is gone now, what is
20 that going to tell you about him, how he will act in the
21 future?
22 A. I don't think I could say that he is
23 going to get married and kill another one.
24 Q. Okay. The words in this question, you
25 won't be given any legal definitions. It will be up to
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1 you and the other jurors. We have got to prove -- so I
2 am going to go over a few of those, for instance,
3 probability. We have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt
4 that it is a probability that the defendant would commit
5 criminal acts of violence. What does probability mean to
6 you in this context?
7 A. A chance.
8 Q. Okay. How about "criminal acts of
9 violence," when you see those words, what does that mean
10 to you?
11 A. Some form of violence committed
12 against me, for the purposes of gain for that individual,
13 or for violation of the law, let's put it that way.
14 Q. Okay. It doesn't necessarily mean
15 murder, although, obviously, that is included?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Okay. Like I said, you may get more
18 background about the defendant when you get to answer
19 these questions. Maybe they had a long criminal history,
20 maybe they didn't have any criminal history, it could go
21 either way.
22 You could be faced with the situation
23 that you had only the facts of the crime itself to answer
24 this question. The brutality of it, like you said, maybe
25 what led up to it, what happened afterward, was there any
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1 remorse shown, things of that nature.
2 Again, I can't preview the facts for
3 you, but do you think that you could get enough
4 information from the crime itself, to be able to answer
5 that question?
6
7 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Your Honor, I
8 will object, unless he characterizes that as in a proper
9 case.
10 THE COURT: Well, that is sustained.
11 All of these questions assume, sir, that you believe the
12 evidence and assume that the evidence is adequate. We
13 are not trying to pin you down to anything.
14 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
15 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Okay.
16
17 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
18 Q. Again, what kinds of things would be
19 important about the crime itself that could tell you a
20 lot about a person?
21 A. Well, mainly the cause.
22 Q. Okay. Just what led up to it?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Okay. I want to go to this last
25 question. You don't get to that unless you have found
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1 the defendant guilty, and found that they would be a
2 continuing danger to society. And if you would, just
3 take a moment.
4 This one is a lot lengthier, and
5 believe me, Mr. Rollins, none of the lawyers here thought
6 up this question, the legislature did that.
7 Read that to yourself for a moment.
8 A. All right.
9 Q. That is what we call the mitigation
10 question. That is the one where the jurors at the end
11 review all of the evidence, and then decide: Is there
12 evidence that shows this defendant should get a life
13 sentence or is there not? Okay?
14 We can't tell you what circumstantial
15 evidence is -- I mean, what the mitigating evidence is,
16 that is going to be left up to you and the other jurors.
17 In fact, you don't have to sit there
18 and conjure up facts which you think the mitigating
19 evidence is, and you don't have to agree with the other
20 jurors.
21 You just have to be able to keep your
22 mind open to it. Do you think you can do that?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Okay. Well, we have talked to lots of
25 juror, and people have different ideas and you don't have
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1 to agree with any of them. But let me go over a few
2 things and see how they cut with you one way or the
3 other.
4 Sometimes, we have jurors that say,
5 "Well," -- or you have a situation maybe where the
6 defendant was drunk or on drugs when they committed the
7 crime.
8 Some jurors might view that as
9 mitigating, other jurors would really hold that against a
10 person.
11 How do you feel about it one way or
12 the other?
13 A. I would hold that against the person.
14 Q. Okay. Sometimes you might hear
15 evidence that a person grew up in a poor economic
16 neighborhood. They were deprived maybe when they grew
17 up. Some people feel that might be mitigating evidence,
18 other people say no, that is not mitigating.
19 A. I don't agree with that.
20 Q. Sometimes you hear evidence of a
21 person that was physically or mentally abused as a child;
22 or sexually abused as a child. Again, people feel both
23 ways on that.
24 A. I have a very strong feeling about
25 that, I believe that is a crutch.
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1 Q. Okay. Someone is using that as a
2 crutch?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Okay. So you wouldn't find that to be
5 mitigating at all?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. But you can keep your mind open to
8 that type of evidence? And if you see it, you can give
9 it that proper weight?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Okay. Judge Tolle went over some
12 rules of law that apply in every case, and I am sure you
13 are familiar with those. The presumption of innocence,
14 the defendant is presumed to be innocent. You could
15 follow that rule of law?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay. The defendant's right not to
18 testify. If someone wants to testify, they can. You
19 can't hold it against them, if they choose not to. Could
20 you follow that rule of law?
21 A. I can follow it, I don't understand
22 it, though.
23 Q. Okay. But you feel you could follow
24 it?
25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. All right. The State has the burden
2 of proof, we have to prove this case beyond a reasonable
3 doubt. That burden of proof never shifts to the defense.
4 If we fail in our burden anywhere along the line, you
5 have to find the defendant not guilty. Can you do that?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Okay. Like I said, the defense is not
8 required to prove anything to you. They might try their
9 hardest to prove something to you, but they are not
10 required to, and you can't require them to. They are
11 under no obligation to you. You can follow that rule of
12 law?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay. The Judge will also tell you
15 that during any part of your deliberations you are not to
16 consider the parole laws. Could you follow that rule of
17 law?
18 A. I didn't understand you.
19 Q. You cannot consider parole laws. You
20 can't consider those at all.
21
22 THE COURT: Both sides might state the
23 reason why that is.
24
25
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1 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
2 Q. The reason for that is the parole laws
3 change all the time, and we never know what they may be.
4 But the jury has no control over them, whatsoever.
5
6 THE COURT: We cannot control the
7 parole laws at this level.
8 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: All right,
9 sir.
10 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Judge Tolle has no
11 control. So he would just instruct you that you are not
12 to consider those or use those in your deliberations in
13 any way. Could you follow that rule of law?
14 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
15
16 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
17 Q. Mr. Rollins, you have been very
18 patient with me. Do you have any questions about
19 anything I have gone over?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Okay.
22
23 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: That's all I have
24 then, Judge. Thank you.
25 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Shook. Mr.
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1 Mosty.
2
3 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
4
5 BY MR. RICHARD MOSTY:
6 Q. Mr. Rollins, good morning. How are
7 you doing today?
8 A. Just fine.
9 Q. Mr. Rollins, this is really the only
10 time that we or any of the lawyers get an opportunity to
11 visit with you, and really for you to express your views
12 and opinions about the case, about the law or about
13 anything that might come up to you.
14 So, I want to encourage you to feel
15 free to open up. If you have got a question, let's get
16 it out on the table.
17 If you have got some concern or lack
18 of understanding about something I ask, let's get it out
19 and we will talk about it, and we will sort through it.
20 Once you get in that jury box, you
21 don't get to ask any more questions. I tried a jury case
22 yesterday, and one of the jurors when I got out, talked
23 to her and she said, "You know, I had a whole lot of
24 questions that I needed to ask." And I had warned her at
25 the beginning that you don't get to do that.
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1 So, this is your time to speak up.
2 So, please take that opportunity if there is anything at
3 all that we need to talk about. All right?
4 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
5 affirmatively.)
6 Q. Now, the State, I think, by their
7 question, they spent a lot of time talking about the
8 death penalty and these special issues, and in my
9 judgment that is completely getting the cart before the
10 horse.
11 Because what I really want to
12 emphasize to you is the issues related to whether or not
13 this lady is guilty at all; the burden of proof, a
14 reasonable doubt, the presumption of innocence.
15 Those things that the law has afforded
16 us for over 200 years. And you have made several
17 comments in here about, "If that is the law, then I am
18 going to follow it."
19 And do you agree with me that those
20 laws, those presumption of innocence, that burden of
21 proof, that those laws are every bit as important as any
22 law relating to the death penalty?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. In a lot of ways we may say more