Volume 18

1 IN THE CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT NO. 3
2 DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
3
4
5
6 THE STATE OF TEXAS } NO. F-96-39973-J
7 VS: } & A-96-253
8 DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER } Kerr Co. Number
9
10
11
12
13 STATEMENT OF FACTS
14 JURY VOIR DIRE
15 INDIVIDUAL JURORS HEARING
16 VOL. 18 OF VOLS.
17 November 5, 1996
18 Tuesday
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1624

1 C A P T I O N
2
3
4 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Tuesday, the 5th day of
5 November, 1996, in the Criminal District Court Number 3
6 of Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on
7 for a hearing before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the
8 Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas,
9 without a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open
10 court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse,
11 Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as
12 follows:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1625

1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2
3
4 HON. JOHN VANCE
5 Criminal District Attorney
6 Dallas County, Texas
7
8 BY: HON. TOBY L. SHOOK
9 Assistant District Attorney
10 Dallas County, Texas
11
12 AND:
13 HON. JOHN GRAU
14 Assistant District Attorney
15 Dallas County, Texas
16
17 AND:
18 HON. SHERRI WALLACE
19 Assistant District Attorney
20 Dallas County, Texas
21
22 APPEARING FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1626

1 ADDITIONAL APPEARANCES:
2
3 HON. DOUGLAS D. MULDER
4 Attorney at Law
5 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
6 717 N. Harwood
7 Dallas, TX 75201
8
9 AND: HON. CURTIS GLOVER
10 Attorney at Law
11 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
12 717 N. Harwood
13 Dallas, TX 75201
14
15 AND: HON. RICHARD C. MOSTY
16 Attorney at Law
17 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
18 820 Main Street, Suite 200
19 Kerrville, TX 78028
20
21 AND: HON. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.
22 Attorney at Law
23 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
24 820 Main Street, Suite 200
25 Kerrville, TX 78028
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
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1
2 AND: HON. JOHN HAGLER
3 Attorney at Law
4 901 Main Street, Suite 3601
5 Dallas, TX 75202
6 ALL ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE
7 DEFENDANT: DARLIE ROUTIER
8 MR. HAGLER HANDLING THE APPEAL
9 AND:
10 HON. ALBERT D. PATILLO, III
11 Attorney at Law
12 820 Main Street, Suite 211
13 Kerrville, TX 78028
14 APPEARING FOR: Witness-
15 Detective Jimmy Patterson
16 only on one date in trial
17 AND:
18 HON. STEVEN J. PICKELL
19 Attorney at Law
20 620 Earl Garrett Street
21 Kerrville, TX 78028
22 APPEARING FOR: Witness
23 Officer Chris Frosch
24 only on one date in trial
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1628

1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 November 5th, 1996
4 Tuesday
5 8:30 a.m.
6
7 (Whereupon, the following
8 proceedings were held in
9 open court, in the presence
10 and hearing of the
11 defendant, being
12 represented by her attorneys
13 and the representatives of
14 the State of Texas,
15 As follows:)
16
17
18 THE COURT: Who is the first one?
19 Angela Valenzuela. All right. Juror number 41, okay.
20 We are back on the record in the
21 Darlie Routier matter, this is Tuesday, November 5th.
22 This is Ms. Angela, A-N-G-E-L-A, Merrill, M-E-R-R-I-L-L,
23 Valenzuela, V-A-L-E-N-Z-U-E-L-A. Is that your name,
24 ma'am, and the correct spelling?
25 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
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1 THE COURT: Thank you. If you could
2 tap this, there you go. Ms. Valenzuela is number 41 on
3 our list and number 114 on the juror's list. And, ma'am,
4 if you will raise your right hand, please.
5 You solemnly swear or affirm you will
6 true answers give to all questions propounded to you
7 concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help you
8 God?
9
10 (Whereupon, the prospective
11 juror was duly sworn by the
12 Court to true answers make
13 to the questions propounded,
14 concerning qualifications, after
15 which time, the proceedings were
16 resumed as follows:)
17
18 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
19 THE COURT: You are here today as a
20 prospective juror in the Darlie Routier matter, and Mrs.
21 Routier is the defendant in today's case. She is the
22 young lady sitting over here in the dress with the white
23 collar and necklace or whatever.
24 She is represented by Mr. Curtis
25 Glover and Mr. Preston Douglass.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1630

1 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.: Good
2 morning.
3 MR. CURTIS GLOVER: Hello.
4 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Hello.
5 THE COURT: And the State of Texas is
6 represented by Mr. Toby Shook and Ms. Sherri Wallace of
7 the Dallas County District Attorney's Office.
8 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Good morning.

9 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Good morning.
10 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Good morning.
11 THE COURT: You are going to be asked
12 some questions from both sides, and I want you to relax.
13 Are you a little bit nervous?
14 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Okay, relax. There are no
16 wrong answers, there will not be a test. We just want to
17 know how you feel. Listen to each question carefully and
18 just answer that question. Nobody is trying to trick
19 you, okay?
20 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
21 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Shook.
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1631

1 Whereupon,
2
3 ANGELA MERRILL VALENZUELA,
4
5 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of
6 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
8 true, testified in open court, as follows:
9
10 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
13 Q. Ms. Valenzuela, again, my name is Toby
14 Shook. I am one of the prosecutors in the case and I
15 will be asking you questions on behalf of the State. And
16 like the Judge said, this is not a test. We just want
17 your honest opinions. Okay?
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. Have you ever been down on jury duty
20 before?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. Usually we talk to everyone in
23 one big panel, but since this is a capital murder case in
24 which the State is seeking the death penalty, we talk to
25 every juror individually. I want to get a little bit on
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
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1 your background and then kind of talk about the law
2 involved. Okay?
3 A. All right.
4 Q. First of all, you put a note and you
5 may have said something, I believe, a couple of weeks ago
6 when you were in the big panel, I think you brought it up
7 then, about your children.
8 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
9 affirmatively.)
10 Q. Was it three boys?
11 A. Four boys.
12 Q. Four boys, okay. One of them is
13 hearing impaired; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you wanted to write that down
16 because that could cause you some special problems, I
17 would guess.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Tell us a little bit about that.
20 A. Which boy? The oldest one?
21 Q. Is he the one that is hearing
22 impaired?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Start with him.
25 A. Well, he is just hearing impaired. He
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1 don't talk, he just does sign language.
2 Q. Okay. How old is he?
3 A. He is 11.
4 Q. Okay. He is 11.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Does he go to school?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What time does he get out of school?
9 A. He gets home about 10 minutes till
10 4:00
11 Q. Okay. And then you have some other
12 boys that are younger than that I think. Right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. How old are they?
15 A. 10, 8, and 6.
16 Q. Okay. What time do they get out of
17 school?
18 A. I know they get home at 3:45.
19 Q. Okay. Now do you work?
20 A. No.
21 Q. You are housewife, you stay there and
22 take care of the children?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And if -- when they get home, I
25 guess you are there to supervise them; is that right?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1634

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Is anyone else there able to
3 supervise them if you were down here on jury service?
4 A. I can try to get my sister-in-law.
5 Q. Okay. Maybe your sister-in-law?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. The fact that your one boy
8 is hearing impaired, does that worry you in any way if
9 you were chosen as a juror? I mean, you brought that up.
10 A. Somewhat, because --
11 Q. Tell us a little bit about that.
12 A. He doesn't -- well, they don't do sign
13 language like I do.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And I do most of it with him to learn
16 and everything.
17 Q. So he primarily communicates through
18 you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. He can't with his brothers?
21 A. Well, the brothers know a little bit.
22 Q. But not like you do?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. All right. Ms. Valenzuela, let
25 me talk to you a little bit then about how you feel about
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
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1 the death penalty. You wrote down on your questionnaire
2 that you are in favor of the death penalty as a law; is
3 that right?
4 A. Somewhat.
5 Q. Okay. Somewhat. Well, okay. That is
6 what we want to get into is your personal feelings. How
7 do you feel about the death penalty?
8 A. Well, if somebody does a crime or they
9 kill somebody, they should be able to get the death
10 penalty.
11 Q. Okay. Have you always felt that way
12 about the death penalty? I mean, have you ever been
13 against the death penalty?
14 A. No.
15 Q. I mean, you probably don't sit around
16 thinking about it a lot?
17 A. No.
18 Q. At least I hope you don't?
19 A. No.
20 Q. But what types of crimes do you think
21 of when you think about the death penalty?
22 A. If somebody kills somebody or
23 something like that.
24 Q. Okay. Have you ever followed any
25 cases in the news, TV news, that are murder cases that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1636

1 you thought might -- you know, that is a death penalty
2 case or something like that? Like the O. J. Simpson
3 case, did you follow that case at all?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Okay. How about that -- remember the
6 Susan Smith case?
7 A. No.
8 Q. The case where out of Carolina where
9 the woman involved with her two kids in the car? Does
10 that sound familiar?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Okay. Any cases other than murder
13 cases that you think people should get the death penalty
14 for?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So you would just reserve it, if it
17 was up to you, to just murder cases?
18 A. Some.
19 Q. Some?
20 A. Not all.
21 Q. Not all, but some murder cases. All
22 right. Now, the type of case the defendant has been
23 indicted for is intentional killing of a child under the
24 age of six. You have not heard any witnesses yet, so I'm
25 not going to ask you what your verdict would be. But
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1637

1 that type of case, murdering a child under the age of
2 six, is that the type of case you think a person should
3 be eligible for the death penalty?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Let me kind of tell you --
6 well, let me ask you this: As far as murdering and
7 getting the death penalty, do you think that is -- should
8 we do that because -- well, maybe that would keep people
9 from doing it again or that is just the right thing to do
10 in those situations, if someone murders like that? It's
11 just like -- you know, some people come in here and say,
12 "The Bible says an eye for an eye," and that kind of
13 thing.
14 Where do you come in on the death
15 penalty? Why do you think we should impose it?
16 A. Well, probably when they -- when you
17 hear all of the testimony and all that.
18 Q. Okay. Then, if it's the right thing
19 to do, you should do it?
20 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
21 affirmatively.)
22 Q. And murder of children would be one of
23 those type cases you think might --
24 A. I have four kids of my own and I
25 wouldn't even do it.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1638

1 Q. You wouldn't do what?
2 A. Even try to kill them. I don't even
3 want to hit them or anything.
4 Q. Okay. You don't strike them or
5 anything. You couldn't understand why someone would
6 murder their children?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. Let me -- Ms. Valenzuela, you
9 know that the death penalty does -- we actually carry
10 that punishment out in Texas. You may have heard about
11 that on TV, or read about it in the paper, I don't know.
12 But do you know what the method of execution is?
13 A. No.
14 Q. It's lethal injection. It's where
15 they put you to sleep. There's been over 100 people that
16 have been executed in the State of Texas. Okay?
17 What happens is, the trial goes on and
18 we have to prove that the defendant, beyond a reasonable
19 doubt --
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. -- committed the crime. And if we do
22 that, the jury returns a verdict of guilty. At that
23 point, if there is a guilty verdict, we go on to the
24 punishment phase. And there we have to put up these two
25 questions.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1639

1 The first question we have to prove,
2 is that the defendant would be a continuing danger to
3 society. Okay?
4 And the second question allows the
5 jurors to look at all of the evidence and if they think a
6 life sentence should be imposed, they can answer it that
7 way. If they don't think it should be imposed, they can
8 answer the other way. But once you find someone guilty,
9 there is only two possible outcomes. A person can get
10 death or life. Okay?
11 Now, the jurors don't write that in.
12 If they answer a "yes" answer to the first question and a
13 "no" answer to the second, the Judge will sentence the
14 defendant to death. You think they are a danger and
15 there is no evidence that says they should get a life
16 sentence, then the Judge will sentence them to death.
17 There is no -- he has no alternative. Okay? That is
18 what the law says he has to do.
19 If they answer it any other way, then
20 the defendant gets a life sentence. But there's only two
21 outcomes once someone has been found guilty. Is that
22 clear to you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But it all depends on how the jurors
25 answer these questions. "Yes" and "no" equals death.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1640

1 Like I said, the method of execution is by lethal
2 injection. If a person is sentenced to death in this
3 State, they stay in Huntsville, Texas, on death row. And
4 they wait. I can't tell you, but someday if this
5 defendant were found guilty, and the juror answered "yes"
6 and "no," someday Judge Tolle would issue a death
7 warrant. That gives the actual date of execution.
8 And under our laws, she would be taken
9 from a cell and moved to a special area, the Walls Unit.
10 And at that time, she would be given time with the family
11 and friends, a minister.
12 And the law says that at 6:00 p.m. or
13 after 6:00 p.m., and it always takes place shortly after
14 that, she would be taken from her cell, taken to the
15 death chamber, laid down on one of these hospital
16 gurneys, except this one would have straps that would
17 strap down her legs, her arms, and her chest, and needles
18 would be placed in her arm.
19 At that point in time, she would be
20 given -- the death warrant would be read, she would be
21 given a chance to say something, say anything, she can
22 say, "I didn't do it," whatever.
23 But after that, the poison would be
24 injected in her system. Breathing would stop, heart
25 would stop, it all takes about 10 minutes. That has
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1641

1 happened, like I said, over 100 times. That happened to
2 five individuals that were convicted in Dallas County
3 just last year, they were executed. My point is, that
4 we're talking about a very real punishment. Something
5 that will happen to Mrs. Routier if she is convicted, if
6 the jury answers "yes" and "no."
7 What I want to know is, obviously, I
8 can't commit you to the verdict, but if you hear the
9 evidence, and we prove it to you, would you be able to go
10 along and take pen in hand and write those answers
11 knowing that the defendant would be executed someday? If
12 we prove that it you.
13
14 THE COURT: Is that a yes? You have
15 to -- Ms. Halsey is taking all this down so if you would
16 please answer yes or no.
17 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: It's yes.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
19 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Okay. If I could
20 have one moment, please, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Sure.
22
23 (Whereupon, a short
24 Discussion was held
25 Off the record, after
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1642

1 Which time the
2 Proceedings were resumed
3 As follows:)
4
5 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
6 Q. Before I go into another area, because
7 I don't want to waste anyone's time, Ms. Valenzuela, but
8 you remember Judge Tolle talked about taking an
9 exemption?
10 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
11 affirmatively.)
12 Q. That is -- an exemption is something
13 you can take if you are eligible, but it's up to you.
14 And if you have children under the age of 10, and you are
15 on jury duty, they wouldn't have any care or have
16 adequate supervision, then you can take that exemption.
17 Now I understand your kids are in school some of that
18 time?
19 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
20 affirmatively.)
21 Q. Okay. The trial would go on until
22 about five o'clock every day. If you were in
23 deliberations, you might be sequestered, meaning you
24 might have to stay during the night. Okay? But we think
25 the trial will last two to three weeks. You know your
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1643

1 situation best as far as that goes, Ms. Valenzuela. If
2 you were put on a jury for two or three weeks and went
3 till five o'clock, would your children have adequate
4 supervision, the ones under 10, or would they not?
5 A. No, I don't know if I could get my
6 sister-in-law to go watch them or not.
7 Q. Okay. So, as your situation exists
8 today, you don't think they would have adequate
9 supervision?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Okay. Would you like to claim your
12 exemption then?
13 A. Yes, let me go ahead and do it,
14 because my husband also is sick.
15 Q. Your husband is also sick?
16 A. Yes, he is out. He is going back to
17 work in two weeks, so hopefully, he will be home.
18 Q. So, as you know yourself today, then
19 you would want to claim your exemption as far as having
20 to care for your children under the age of 10?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Judge, how would
24 you like us to proceed now?
25 THE COURT: Anything Mr. -- is the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1644

1 defense going to object to her claiming exemption?
2 MR. CURTIS GLOVER: Well, let me just
3 ask her one question.
4 THE COURT: That will be fine.
5
6 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
7
8 BY MR. CURTIS GLOVER:
9 Q. Do you feel, Ms. Valenzuela, that you
10 couldn't make some exception in this case and come down
11 here and serve on a jury and get somebody to take care of
12 your kids?
13
14 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Judge, we'll
15 object to that. It's not whether she wants to make
16 exceptions, it is whether she wants to take the
17 exemption.
18 THE COURT: I understand. I
19 understand. Well, I will let them --
20 MR. CURTIS GLOVER: Are you firm in
21 that you do want to take your exemption? I feel like she
22 is, Judge.
23 THE COURT: All right. So no
24 objection from the defense?
25 MR. CURTIS GLOVER: No objection.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1645

1 THE COURT: Thank you very much. All
2 right. You will be excused, ma'am. Ma'am, we would ask
3 you not to discuss anything that went on in here --
4 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
5 THE COURT: -- until the trial is
6 over. It won't be over until the end of January, maybe
7 around the first of February. Mum is the word, and we
8 hope things goes well for you.
9 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Thank you.
10 THE COURT: All right. Next juror.
11 We are ready. This gentleman is -- your name, sir?
12 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Duane Simpson,
13 Harris Duane Simpson.
14 THE COURT: That is a number 39. Go
15 ahead and have a seat. That is number 39, Harris Duane
16 Simpson. That is 39 on our list and 110 on the jury
17 list. All right. If you will raise your right hand,
18 please.
19 Do you solemnly swear or affirm you
20 will true answers make to all the questions propounded to
21 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
22 you God?
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
24
25 (Whereupon, the prospective
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1646

1 juror was duly sworn by the
2 Court to true answers make
3 to the questions propounded,
4 concerning qualifications, after
5 which time, the proceedings were
6 resumed as follows:)
7
8 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
9 All right. You are here today as a potential juror in
10 the matter of the trial of Darlie Lynn Routier.
11 Mrs. Routier is the young lady sitting
12 over here to your far right in the red dress with the
13 white collar. She is represented by Mr. Curtis Glover
14 from Dallas and Mr. Preston Douglass, and also Richard
15 Mosty who is not here right now, from Kerrville.
16 The State is represented in these
17 proceedings by Mr. Toby Shook and Ms. Sherri Wallace,
18 both are Assistant District Attorneys from Dallas.
19 Both sides will ask you some
20 questions. There are no wrong answers, there won't be a
21 test. Just answer them just like, you know, honest
22 answers, nobody is trying to trick you.
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Great.
24 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Wallace.
25 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: May it please the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1647

1 Court?
2
3 Whereupon,
4
5 HARRIS DUANE SIMPSON,
6
7 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of
8 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
10 true, testified in open court, as follows:
11
12 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
13
14 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
15 Q. Again, good morning. My name is
16 Sherri Wallace and I will be asking you a few questions.
17 First off, thank you for filling out your questionnaire,
18 it was a big help.
19 A. I did my best.
20 Q. It probably took a while.
21 A. It did.
22 Q. And as the Judge said, just let me
23 restate, there is no right or wrong answers, I just kind
24 of want to hear how you feel and talk to you a little bit
25 more about your questionnaire.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1648

1 Let me first start by asking you: Do
2 you know either of the local counsel? Richard Mosty or
3 Preston Douglass who is here today.
4 A. I know Richard, but not very well. I
5 mean, I know who he is, more or less, no.
6 Q. Okay. Have you ever used him as an
7 attorney or anything like that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay. Anything about that that would
10 influence you in any way in this trial?
11 A. No, I don't believe so.
12 Q. Okay. Just know him from around town?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. All right. Lots of folks seem to know
15 him.
16 A. It's a small town.
17 Q. Uh-huh. And you don't know any of the
18 people from Dallas; is that right?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. Including the defendant?
21 A. Absolutely.
22 Q. Okay. Mr. Simpson, up front, let me
23 just tell you: It is our goal and desire to see that
24 that woman down there is executed. We believe we have
25 the type of case and the quality of evidence to do that.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1649

1 Would you have any problem in participating in that
2 process if we prove the case to you beyond a reasonable
3 doubt?
4 A. Absolutely not.
5 Q. All right. In here it says that you
6 have heard about this case.
7 A. Yes, ma'am.
8 Q. And I want to talk to you a little bit
9 about the pretrial publicity. As you may or may not
10 know, that is what we are doing here in Kerrville.
11 A. You say I have heard about the case?
12 Q. Yes. It says that your wife had just
13 told you about it, that it was a murder case.
14 A. That's all I know.
15 Q. Oh, so that is all you know. So you
16 really don't know much about it?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Well, along those lines, that
19 is exactly what we're looking for. We're looking for
20 somebody who won't make up their mind ahead of time, who
21 will wait and hear the evidence in the case and in the
22 courtroom. And I think you should have no problem doing
23 that, since you have not heard anything. How is that?
24 Does that sound fair?
25 A. It sounds fair to me.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1650

1 Q. All right. Here in Texas, let me tell
2 you a little bit about how the death -- well, let me ask
3 you: You said you were in favor of the death penalty.
4 Can you tell me a little bit about that.
5 A. Well, I just feel like if somebody
6 takes somebody else's life, they deserve -- kind of like
7 an eye for an eye. I mean, that is just the way I feel
8 about it.
9 Q. All right.
10 A. Maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong,
11 but that is just the way I feel about it.
12 Q. That is your personal belief.
13 A. If somebody killed a member of my
14 family, or would do anything, I don't care if they are
15 one day old or 100 years old, it's not the way to do it.
16 You deserve to die.
17 Q. Have you always felt that way?
18 A. Pretty much.
19 Q. All right. Let me tell you, here in
20 Texas there are specific crimes that are eligible for the
21 death penalty.
22 Murder is not one of them. You have
23 to have murder plus something else. Okay? It has to --
24 it depends on the type of victim, or other circumstances.
25 Let me be more specific. If you
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1 murder a police officer in the line of duty, that would
2 be a capital murder, or a fireman or a prison guard in
3 the line of duty. If you murder for hire, that is you
4 hire a hit man, or you are the hit man, and you get paid
5 for killing, those types of crimes would be eligible for
6 the death penalty.
7 If you kill more than one person, or
8 if you kill in the course of committing another felony,
9 like, a rape, or a kidnapping or a burglary, something
10 like that. Or if you kill a child under the age of six.
11 Those are a nutshell of the crimes that are eligible for
12 the death penalty in Texas. How does that sound to you?
13 Does that sound fair?
14 A. Like I said earlier, I mean, I don't
15 care if you are one year old or 100, it sounds fair to
16 me, yes.
17 Q. Okay. Is there anything else that you
18 would personally add to that list?
19 A. Well --
20 Q. If you were Governor of Texas?
21 A. Well, I don't think it makes any
22 difference who it is, that is the way I feel about it.
23 Like I say, the number of people, or you would have to be
24 under a certain age or over a certain age, doctor,
25 lawyer, or whatever, it makes me no difference.
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1 Q. Okay. Let me tell you now a little
2 bit about how this scheme works: It used to be that --
3 criminal trials are broken up, they still are. Criminal
4 trials are broken up into two phases; there is the
5 guilt/innocence phase, and then, if the defendant is
6 found guilty, then you move to the punishment phase.
7 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
8 affirmatively.)
9 Q. Have you ever served as a juror?
10 A. No, I have not.
11 Q. Okay. In the first phase, it's either
12 guilty or not guilty. If it's not guilty, everybody goes
13 home. If it's guilty, you go to the second phase, to
14 punishment.
15 Now, it used to be the jury made the
16 determination at the second phase. They either wrote
17 life or they wrote death in the blank. Okay? That is
18 not how it is anymore, the legislature has changed it. I
19 really don't know why, I had nothing to do with it, but
20 they came up with two questions that the jury must
21 answer, instead of saying death or life. And here are
22 the two questions, and we will go over them in a second,
23 but the first question has to be answered "yes," and the
24 second question has to be answered "no." Okay?
25 So it's guilty, "yes," "no," in order
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1 to get a death sentence. If these questions are answered
2 any other way, the Judge must impose a life sentence.
3 Okay? So, in fact, the jury doesn't really write death,
4 but the effect of their answers gives the Judge no
5 choice. You follow me so far?
6 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
7 affirmatively.)
8 Q. Okay. That first question it says:
9 "Do you find from the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt
10 that there is a probability that the defendant would
11 commit criminal acts of violence that would constitute a
12 continuing threat to society?"
13 Do you remember the Judge's
14 instructions, I guess it was a couple of weeks ago, when
15 he told you that the defendant is presumed innocent?
16 A. Sure.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. I have no problem with that.
19 Q. If you voted right now, you would have
20 to find her not guilty.
21 A. Absolutely.
22 Q. Okay. And that is because we have the
23 burden of proof, and that is really just another way of
24 saying we have the burden of proof. With this question,
25 the first question in the punishment phase, we again have
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1 the burden of proof.
2 So, that question is presumed to be
3 answered "no." Just like in the guilt/innocence phase,
4 presumed innocent, this is presumed to be answered "no."
5 We have got to convince you beyond a reasonable doubt
6 that she will be a future danger, basically, to summarize
7 it. And the key to this, Mr. Simpson, is that you can't
8 automatically, knee-jerk, make a decision.
9 Some people say, "Well, if I found the
10 defendant guilty of capital murder, automatically, no
11 question, I would impose the death penalty." And that is
12 not the type of juror we need, because we need somebody
13 that will wait and hear the evidence.
14 Let me give you a little bit of an
15 example: Let's say that I go into a bank and rob a bank,
16 and I want to get some money. And I am in there and I
17 decide I don't want any witnesses, so I'm going to just
18 kill everybody. And I kill the teller, and I kill
19 everybody in line, including a woman with a baby. I
20 mean, just, you know, horrible, horrible crime, 10 people
21 die. And I am running out of the bank, and that is it.
22 Now, if that's all you heard, you may
23 think, "Oh, my God, she ought to get the death penalty.
24 No question in my mind. That's all I need to know." But
25 if you look further at the evidence, while I am escaping
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1 from the bank, a police car is coming to apprehend me.
2 You see, right before I shot the teller, the teller
3 pushed that little emergency button under her counter,
4 and the police are coming to get me.
5 I don't hear anything and I don't see
6 them. They pull -- they run me over, and I live, but I
7 am a quadriplegic.
8 Now, after you hear all that -- now, I
9 know that is a far out example.
10 A. Sure.
11 Q. But I use it for this premise: You
12 don't know what the facts are until you get there?
13 A. Heard all the facts, right.
14 Q. Right, until you get in the courtroom.
15 And if I just told you about that horrible killing, baby,
16 mommy, and you know, a security guard and the teller, all
17 the folks that were killed in that bank; if you knew only
18 about that, you would say, "Heck, yeah, she ought to
19 die." But after you have heard the whole thing, and you
20 don't just decide if I live or die, you have to answer
21 this question: Is there a probability that I would be a
22 continuing threat to society?
23 A. Not if you're a quadriplegic, I don't
24 see how you could be.
25 Q. Right. You may decide after you have
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1 heard the evidence that I am mean as a snake, and I might
2 be able to do something with my, you know, my jaw or
3 my --
4 A. Teeth?
5 Q. Yeah, my teeth, no telling. But the
6 point of the matter is you just have to wait until you
7 hear, and I think you have said you could do that; is
8 that right?
9 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
10 affirmatively.)
11 Q. Okay. Let me talk to you a little bit
12 about the indictment. I think it's there in front of
13 you. Do you see it, Mr. Simpson? Yeah. Just read that
14 typewritten portion, you don't need to read the whole
15 thing, but just that.
16
17 THE COURT: That is in the middle of
18 that.
19 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: This?
20 THE COURT: Yes, right.
21 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Not the
22 preprinted part.
23
24 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
25 Q. Okay. That is what the defendant is
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1 charged with and that is what we intend to prove to the
2 jury beyond a reasonable doubt. And we do that through
3 several different methods. We can do that through direct
4 evidence or indirect evidence. And indirect evidence is
5 sometimes called circumstantial evidence. I want to
6 spend some time talking about that, but first I want to
7 talk to you about direct evidence. Direct evidence is an
8 eyewitness. That is it, that is what direct evidence is.
9 And often, I'm sure that you can
10 imagine, in murder cases we do not have an eyewitness.
11 The eyewitness is dead. You know the defendant doesn't
12 have to testify and so the State must look to other types
13 of evidence to convince the jury beyond a reasonable
14 doubt that the defendant is guilty.
15 So, circumstantial evidence are things
16 like everything else: Statements by the defendant that
17 don't comport with the crime scene; fingerprints; DNA;
18 blood splatters; fibers; anything else other than an
19 eyewitness.
20 Are you open to the possibility that
21 we could convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that the
22 defendant is guilty of capital murder based on
23 circumstantial evidence alone?
24 A. I would just have to hear the evidence
25 first and then I could make a decision, I guess.
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1 Q. That's all we're looking for.
2 Additionally, on that indictment, no
3 where will you find that we have to prove to you motive.
4 We have to prove to you everything on that indictment
5 beyond a reasonable doubt, but we don't have to prove
6 motive. And there is really a good reason for that.
7 We can't get into the defendant's
8 mind. We can't call the defendant to the stand. So, it
9 may be after you have heard all of the evidence, that the
10 motive becomes abundantly clear to you. Or it may be,
11 after you have heard the evidence, it might be one of
12 several. You could be in the jury box, and think, well,
13 I think it's this, and another juror thinks it's this, or
14 whatever. But the point is, it doesn't matter, the
15 motive, if you believe beyond a reasonable doubt that the
16 defendant is good for it.
17 It may be that you don't ever
18 understand. A lot of crimes, we, as right-minded
19 thinking folks, don't ever, ever get. Would you still be
20 able to sit on this case if you did not know a motive?
21 A. I suppose.
22 Q. Okay. You would be able to follow
23 that law?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. All right. And, as I said, if we
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1 don't bring the case to you beyond a reasonable doubt, we
2 go home. But if we do, we go to these questions. And
3 let me talk to you a little bit more about that first
4 question.
5 And let me tell you why I am asking
6 you these things. I am going to ask you what a couple of
7 phrases and words mean to you, and I do that for this
8 reason. A lot of the words that we use that are going to
9 be used in the trial, the Judge will define for you, but
10 he is not going to define a single word in that sentence
11 for you.
12 And so, it's going to be what your
13 understanding of what these words are. So, tell me, Mr.
14 Simpson, what does the word probability -- what would
15 that mean to you?
16 A. It's whether or not you think that she
17 did or she didn't do it. If she had -- or he had cause
18 to do something.
19 Q. Okay. So, if somebody was -- whether
20 or not they were going to probably do something in the
21 future?
22 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
23 affirmatively.)
24 Q. Would that, more likely than not,
25 would that be a pretty fair --
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1 A. That is kind of what it says.
2 Q. Okay. And criminal acts of violence;
3 what sort of things would you be looking for with that
4 phrase?
5 A. You mean what do I consider a criminal
6 act of violence?
7 Q. Yes, sir.
8 A. Murder, assault, rape, physical
9 assault.
10 Q. Okay. So, any sort of injury or harm
11 to a person?
12 A. Yes, bodily harm contact.
13 Q. All right. And, society, that word --
14 let me kind of tell you where I am coming from here.
15 Some people think that society includes all people, and
16 some people think it doesn't include all people. I want
17 to just see where you fit. And by that, I mean, does
18 society in your mind, include prison guards, relatives
19 visiting the inmates, chaplain?
20 A. I never thought about that. That's
21 not the first thing I think of. No, society is just -- I
22 would say the real world, I mean, it's just the world in
23 which we live.
24 Q. Out here?
25 A. Yes, more or less, that is the way I
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1 look at it anyway.
2 Q. Okay. But now that you have had some
3 time to actually kind of think about it, does society
4 include protecting the people who have to work and be in
5 the prisons?
6 A. I guess that is their little society,
7 yes.
8 Q. Okay. And, obviously, there is a lot
9 of people that are in the prison system that are not
10 criminals. There are guards and there are people that
11 are psychologists and psychiatrists and all that sort of
12 stuff that have to come and go and we have to be
13 concerned about their safety as well.
14 If that question -- and remember
15 again, that question is presumed to be answered "no." If
16 we convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that it is
17 probable that the defendant would commit criminal acts of
18 violence that would constitute a continuing threat, then
19 your answer becomes "yes," and you move to the second
20 question.
21 A. If I was convinced beyond a reasonable
22 doubt.
23 Q. Right. The next question is the
24 second special issue, and it's really long, and I will
25 just read it aloud, if you want to read along with me:
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1 "Taking into consideration all of the
2 evidence, including the circumstances of the offense, the
3 defendant's character and background, and the personal
4 moral culpability of the defendant, is there a sufficient
5 mitigating circumstance or circumstances to warrant that
6 a sentence of life imprisonment rather than a death
7 sentence be imposed?"
8 If I could just summarize it, it would
9 go like this: After you have heard everything, do you
10 think there is a reason that she should get a life
11 sentence instead of a death sentence?
12 And there is no burden of proof on
13 that question, this is just kind of the safety net, if
14 you will. It's for your own gut. It is -- you have
15 found the defendant guilty of intentionally -- knowingly
16 and intentionally killing a child under the age of six.
17 Okay? She is guilty of capital murder.
18 You have then gone to the first
19 question and found that she will be a continuing threat
20 to society. Okay? But something comes up, and it may be
21 from the State, and it may be from the defense, but
22 something comes up where you, in your heart, and not
23 anybody else in the jury box, not anybody else in this
24 room, but you decide you couldn't live with yourself if
25 you didn't see that she got a life sentence instead of
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1 death.
2 At that point, you would answer the
3 question "yes," so she would get a life sentence. If
4 there wasn't, in your mind, something sufficient, that
5 question would be answered "no," and she would receive a
6 death sentence. Did you follow all of that?
7 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
8 affirmatively.)
9 Q. Okay. We have been doing this for a
10 couple of weeks, so forgive me if I get ahead of myself.
11 A. You are pretty familiar with the
12 questions then, aren't you?
13 Q. Yes, I have read them a couple of
14 times. So, I don't want to assume anything. Okay?
15 Because the first time I looked at them I went, "Huh"?
16 A. A lot of big words there.
17 Q. Yeah. Mitigating is one of those
18 words that, really, this is sometimes called the
19 mitigation question. And mitigating -- what does that
20 word -- have you ever thought about what it means to you?
21 A. No, I'm not really sure.
22 Q. Okay. Mitigating has been described
23 in case law, these aren't my words, but as something that
24 would lessen someone's moral blameworthiness. In other
25 words, they did it, but for some reason you don't feel
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1 that they are as responsible for their actions as the
2 next guy.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Let me give you an example about where
5 this question came from, and maybe that will help make a
6 little more sense.
7 A few years back there was a man that
8 was tried for capital murder, and he was good for it. He
9 was not insane, he knew the difference between right and
10 wrong. He did it. And he was going to be a future
11 danger, but he was mentally retarded. Okay?
12 Now, he knew the difference between
13 right and wrong, but his mental faculties were so low,
14 that the courts thought there ought to be something for
15 that type of person. Somebody that couldn't help the
16 fact that they just have a severe -- and I don't mean
17 somebody that is just not as bright as the rest of us.
18 I mean this guy was low, low IQ. I
19 mean just borderline competent to stand trial, but he
20 was. Okay? And that is kind of where that question came
21 from.
22 Kind of hearing that background -- now
23 that I have kind of given you that background and that
24 example, is there anything that comes to your mind that
25 would lessen somebody's moral blameworthiness?
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1 A. That is a possibility. Like I said, I
2 don't know a lot about this case, but I don't see how
3 that really pertains to the circumstances of what little
4 I do know about this.
5 Q. Okay. And let me kind of follow that
6 up, Mr. Simpson. Here is the beautiful part. You don't
7 have to tell me or the Judge or the defense lawyers or
8 anybody what would be mitigating to you. Okay?
9 You may sit as a juror in five million
10 capital murder cases, and never once hear something where
11 you decide that a life is appropriate, even though you
12 found the other two, and you don't have to.
13 What you do have to do to be a juror
14 in this case, is to promise the Court that you will
15 follow the law and keep an open mind. It's kind of
16 like -- I don't know what mitigating evidence is, but I
17 will know it when I see it. Okay?
18 A. Yes, that is kind of the way I feel.
19 Q. Is that how you feel?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. So after you have heard
22 everything, if you decided right here, "I don't think
23 death is right in this case, I want a life sentence,"
24 here is how the legislature gives you this little out.
25 Fair enough?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. So, again to be a juror you
3 just have to keep an open mind and wait until you hear
4 the evidence. And I think you have said several times
5 that you could do that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Right?
8 A. I think so.
9 Q. Okay. I want to talk to you a little
10 bit about general principles of law and I have referred
11 to presumed innocent, and you said that you had no
12 trouble with that. That if you voted right now you would
13 find the defendant not guilty.
14 A. Absolutely, I know nothing about it
15 so --
16 Q. Perfect. Additionally, the Judge told
17 you that an indictment is no evidence of guilt.
18 A. I knew that.
19 Q. All right. That is another law that
20 you must follow. Will you be able to follow that law?
21 A. Yes, ma'am.
22 Q. All right. As you know, the defendant
23 has an absolute right not to testify. And you can't hold
24 that against her, you can't hold that against us. In
25 other words, you just can't consider it in any way. Can
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1 you follow that law?
2 A. Yes, ma'am.
3 Q. Okay. Another thing I'd like to talk
4 to you a little bit about is all of the witnesses that
5 come in here. Every witness that comes in is going to
6 take an oath and then sit down on the stand and talk to
7 the jury.
8 And you have to start all witnesses
9 off on the same plane. In other words, you can't give
10 somebody more credibility unless you have heard from
11 them. And that makes sense, I mean it sounds stupid for
12 me to even say it. Well, of course, you don't know what
13 you think of them because you have not heard anything.
14 And here's why I ask it. Some defense
15 attorneys and Mr. Preston and Mr. Glover don't do this,
16 but -- I mean, Mr. Douglass, excuse me. We have been
17 here a while. Preston is his first name. They don't do
18 this, but some defense attorneys will say, "Would you
19 believe a police officer simply because he is a police
20 officer?"
21 And that is really kind of a trick
22 question, because, of course, you would believe a police
23 officer. But as a juror, you can't believe anybody until
24 you hear from them. Could you wait until you hear from
25 any witness, police officer, rabbi, defendant, defense
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1 witness, or whatever, until you decide if they are
2 shooting straight with you?
3 A. Absolutely.
4 Q. All right. In the case, Mr. Simpson,
5 you may see bad photographs, graphic, gory photographs.
6 And we ask that you just be able to look at those
7 photographs for what they are, keep an open mind, view
8 them as pieces of evidence.
9 A. Sounds tough.
10 Q. I'm sorry?
11 A. Sounds tough.
12 Q. Well, it is tough. You know being a
13 juror in a capital murder case is a tough job. We
14 wouldn't anybody that was auditioning for it. But I just
15 want to let you know up front that there is going to be
16 those types of photographs.
17 But, as you can see, we have to prove
18 to you that this defendant did it. Because no matter how
19 bad the photographs are, if she didn't do it, then it
20 doesn't do any good to convict her. We have got to get
21 the right person.
22 A. Sure.
23 Q. So, could you hold us to that burden?
24 A. Sure.
25 Q. In talking about punishment, the Judge
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1 will instruct you that you cannot consider parole for any
2 reason, and there is a good reason for that. The parole
3 board, the people on it change, the rules about parole
4 change, and so, we really have no control over it. Judge
5 Tolle has no control over parole. Because of that, you
6 will be instructed that you cannot consider it in any
7 way. Will you be able to follow that law, Mr. Simpson?
8 A. Absolutely.
9 Q. All right. In your questionnaire you
10 wrote that --
11 A. Could you read it?
12 Q. Sure, I could. You wrote that the
13 defendant has the advantage of possibly getting