Volume 17

1 IN THE CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT NO. 3
2 DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
3
4
5
6 THE STATE OF TEXAS } NO. F-96-39973-J
7 VS: } & A-96-253
8 DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER } Kerr Co. Number
9
10
11
12
13 STATEMENT OF FACTS
14 JURY VOIR DIRE
15 INDIVIDUAL JURORS HEARING
16 VOL. 17 OF VOLS.
17 November 4, 1996
18 Monday
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 1326

1 C A P T I O N
2
3
4 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Monday, the 4th day of
5 November, 1996, in the Criminal District Court Number 3
6 of Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on
7 for a hearing before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the
8 Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas,
9 without a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open
10 court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse,
11 Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as
12 follows:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 1327

1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2
3
4 HON. JOHN VANCE
5 Criminal District Attorney
6 Dallas County, Texas
7
8 BY: HON. TOBY L. SHOOK
9 Assistant District Attorney
10 Dallas County, Texas
11
12 AND:
13 HON. JOHN GRAU
14 Assistant District Attorney
15 Dallas County, Texas
16
17 AND:
18 HON. SHERRI WALLACE
19 Assistant District Attorney
20 Dallas County, Texas
21
22 APPEARING FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1328

1 ADDITIONAL APPEARANCES:
2
3 HON. DOUGLAS D. MULDER
4 Attorney at Law
5 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
6 717 N. Harwood
7 Dallas, TX 75201
8
9 AND: HON. CURTIS GLOVER
10 Attorney at Law
11 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
12 717 N. Harwood

13 Dallas, TX 75201
14
15 AND: HON. RICHARD C. MOSTY
16 Attorney at Law
17 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
18 820 Main Street, Suite 200
19 Kerrville, TX 78028
20
21 AND: HON. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.
22 Attorney at Law
23 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
24 820 Main Street, Suite 200
25 Kerrville, TX 78028
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1329

1
2 AND: HON. JOHN HAGLER
3 Attorney at Law

4 901 Main Street, Suite 3601
5 Dallas, TX 75202
6 ALL ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE
7 DEFENDANT: DARLIE ROUTIER
8 MR. HAGLER HANDLING THE APPEAL
9 AND:
10 HON. ALBERT D. PATILLO, III
11 Attorney at Law
12 820 Main Street, Suite 211
13 Kerrville, TX 78028
14 APPEARING FOR: Witness-
15 Detective Jimmy Patterson

16 only on one date in trial
17 AND:
18 HON. STEVEN J. PICKELL
19 Attorney at Law
20 620 Earl Garrett Street
21 Kerrville, TX 78028
22 APPEARING FOR: Witness

23 Officer Chris Frosch
24 only on one date in trial
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1330

1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 November 4th, 1996
4 Monday
5 8:30 a.m.
6
7 (Whereupon, the following
8 proceedings were held in

9 open court, in the presence
10 and hearing of the

11 defendant, being
12 represented by her attorneys
13 and the representatives of
14 the State of Texas,
15 as follows:)
16
17

18 THE COURT: This is Monday, November
19 4th, back on the record in the Darlie Routier matter.
20 All right. This is our number 33,
21 juror number 91, Jimmie, J-I-M-M-I-E, Ellis, E-L-L-I-S,
22 Samford, S-A-M-F-O-R-D. Right?
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.

24 THE COURT: If you will raise your
25 right hand, please.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1331

1 Do you solemnly swear or affirm you
2 will true answers make to all the questions propounded to
3 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
4 you God?
5
6 (Whereupon, the prospective

7 juror was duly sworn by the
8 Court to true answers make

9 to the questions propounded,
10 concerning qualifications, after
11 which time, the proceedings were
12 resumed as follows:)
13
14 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir, I
15 do.

16 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Samford,
17 the State is Texas is represented by Mr. Toby L. Shook.
18 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Good morning.

19 THE COURT: And Ms. Sherri Wallace.
20 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Good morning.
21 THE COURT: The defendant is Darlie
22 Routier in the burgundy dress to your right. She is
23 represented by Mr. Preston Douglass.

24 MR. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Good morning.
25 THE COURT: Please be seated.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1332

1 Who will go for the State? Mr. Shook?
2 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: I will, Judge.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4
5 Whereupon,
6
7 JIMMIE ELLIS SAMFORD,
8
9 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of

10 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
12 true, testified in open court, as follows:
13
14 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
15
16 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
17 Q. Mr. Samford, again, my name is Toby

18 Shook, I am one of the prosecutors, and I will be asking
19 you questions this morning.

20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Have you been down for jury service
22 before, Mr. Samford?
23 A. Yes, sir. It's been about a year and
24 a half ago or so.
25 Q. Okay. Did you serve on the jury? Did
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1333

1 you get picked?
2 A. Yes, sir, I did.
3 Q. You did? Do you remember what type of
4 case it was?
5 A. It was something about somebody at
6 school over at Center Point.

7 Q. Oh, yeah?
8 A. It was --
9 Q. Go ahead.

10 A. It was some things that happened on
11 the school ground.
12 Q. Was it a civil case? Were they

13 fighting over money? Or was it a criminal case?
14 A. It was not a criminal case.

15 Q. Okay. So it was -- what happened on
16 that case? How long were y'all out?
17 A. Just one day.
18 Q. Oh, a short trial?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Did y'all reach a verdict?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Do you remember what the verdict was?
23 A. He was found guilty, swearing against
24 this other person with a coach or something over there.
25 Q. Oh, okay. So they got in some kind of
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1334

1 argument or something like that?
2 A. Yes, sir. There were some words over
3 something there that happened on the school grounds.
4 Q. Okay. So you were just there one day?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay. This case -- you probably

7 remember when they picked the jury, they talked to
8 everyone in one big group?
9 A. Yes, sir. I do.
10 Q. We do it one at a time here because
11 it's a death penalty case, and the law claims that you
12 have got to talk to every juror one at time.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. We don't mean to make you feel like
15 you are on trial or anything like that.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. So, what we want you to do, Mr.
18 Samford, is just relax, and just answer our questions as
19 honestly as you can. Okay?
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And if you have got any questions of

22 us, you let us know, because we have got to go over a few
23 things that apply in this case. We're not trying to test
24 you or anything, we just want to see if you can follow
25 some of the laws that apply to this case. Okay?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1335

1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Let me ask you first, there are
3 obviously some Dallas lawyers involved. I don't think
4 you know any of them. Do you?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. There's a couple of local Kerrville
7 attorneys, Mr. Douglass here.

8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And Mr. Mosty. Remember Mr. Mosty?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Do you know either one of them?
12 A. No, sir, I do not.
13 Q. Okay. And it looks like, I think, you
14 were in highway construction for like 29 years?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And then now you work at the HEB?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. You have been doing that for a
19 couple of years?
20 A. Four years.

21 Q. Four years?
22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Okay. And you live at home with your
24 wife?
25 A. Yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1336

1 Q. She has you doing some stuff, too?
2 A. Well, just me and my wife and no kids.
3 Q. Okay. Let me ask you, Mr. Samford, as
4 you know, Judge Tolle has said that the defendant is
5 charged with capital murder, and the State is seeking the
6 death penalty. So we want to talk to every juror about
7 how they feel about the death penalty, just your personal
8 feelings.
9 Let me ask you this: Do you think
10 that it is a law that we should have in our state?
11 A. Yes, it should be.
12 Q. Okay. And tell me why you think we
13 should have -- certain crimes should call for the death
14 penalty?
15 A. Well, I don't know.
16 Q. You don't have to give me any long
17 answer.
18 A. Well, if a person does wrong, they
19 should be punished for the crime.
20 Q. Okay. In certain types of murder
21 cases, do you think the death penalty is the appropriate
22 punishment?
23 A. Yes, in some cases, yes.
24 Q. It just depends on the facts of the
25 case?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1337

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Okay. Let me kind of tell you how it
3 works in Texas because we have murder cases, and in some
4 murder cases we can seek the death penalty on, and some
5 we just go for prison time. It just depends on the type
6 of case it is.

7 Not everyone -- and when we're talking
8 about murder, we're talking the intentional killing of

9 another human being. Not every murder case is eligible
10 for the death penalty in Texas. What you have got to
11 have really is murder plus something else.
12 I'll give you a few examples: If

13 someone goes in and murders someone while they are
14 committing another felony, like you may have read about
15 the situation where a guy goes into a 7-Eleven and shoots
16 the clerk while he is robbing him?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. That is a murder during a

19 robbery, that could be a death penalty-type case, you
20 know. Or a guy that goes in and kills a bank teller
21 while he is robbing the bank, that could be a death

22 penalty case, because it happens during another robbery.
23 Or if someone breaks in your house, if
24 someone kills you while they are breaking into your
25 house. Since they are breaking into your house, that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1338

1 could be a death penalty-type case. Those kind of
2 things. Also, if you murder someone for money, like a
3 hit man, you see on TV, those types of shows.
4 A. Yeah, some of the good stuff.
5 Q. Yeah, those could be those. Or
6 murdering a police officer while he is on duty can be a
7 hit man (sic) or mass murderer or something like that.
8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Also, the Judge told you in this case
10 the defendant is charged with the crime of murdering a
11 child under the age of six. That type of murder can be a
12 death penalty case, depending on the facts.
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Now, I can't ask you for your verdict
15 because you have not heard from any of the witnesses, but
16 that type of case, the murder of a child under six, do
17 you think that is the type of case that could be eligible
18 for the death penalty?

19 A. I do.
20 Q. Okay. Let me ask you, Mr. Samford,
21 have you heard anything about this case on the radio or
22 on the TV?
23 A. No, sir. I haven't heard anything on
24 radio or TV.
25 Q. Okay. Haven't formed any opinions or
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1339

1 anything like that?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Okay. Let me kind of go over with you
4 how the trial would work. It's divided into two parts:
5 There is the guilt/innocence stage, where we have to
6 prove where the crime occurred. Then we move -- and if
7 we don't do that, everyone goes home. Okay?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And if we do prove beyond a reasonable
10 doubt that it occurred, we move to the punishment stage
11 where you get some more questions.
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. In the punishment stage you hear

14 additional evidence. You can hear about a person's
15 background and things like that. Bad things, good

16 things. If they have a criminal history, for instance,
17 you can hear that.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. But at the end of that you will get
20 these questions. And I'll go over those in more detail
21 in a moment, but let me summarize those questions. The
22 first question is this: We have to prove that they will
23 be a future danger to society. Okay?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. If we do that, you answer "yes."
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1340

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. The last question is: Looking at all
3 of the evidence, if you think there is some -- what we

4 call mitigating evidence, in other words, evidence that
5 tells you in your heart that they should get a life
6 sentence rather than a death sentence, could you answer
7 the questions "yes" that way?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And prevent them from getting the
10 death penalty?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. But the point of it is this:
13 Depending on how the jury answers those questions, the
14 Judge would sentence the defendant to death or life.

15 Okay?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. If you give a "yes" and a "no" answer,
18 it equals death. If you answer it any other way, they
19 get a life sentence. But those are the only two possible
20 outcomes once a defendant has been found guilty, death
21 and life. Is that clear to you?
22 A. Yes, sir, that's clear.
23 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this Mr.
24 Samford, you said that you believe the death penalty is a
25 law we need to have?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1341

1 A. Yes, sir, it is.
2 Q. And is one that should, I guess, be
3 invoked in certain kind of cases.
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Okay. Do you think that you are the
6 type of juror that could sit on a jury and listen to the
7 evidence, and if we did prove these things to you, you
8 could answer the questions in a way that would result in
9 the defendant's death?
10 A. Yes, sir, I do.
11 Q. You could do that?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. If it's proven to you?

14 A. If it is proven to me.
15 Q. Okay. Are there any type of cases
16 that come to mind that you think -- you know, and we

17 talked about murder cases in general, but have you ever
18 seen any cases in the news where you say, "You know, that
19 is kind of a death penalty case."
20 A. Yes, at times. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Do you remember any by facts or
22 anything?
23
24 THE COURT: Mr. Samford, this is
25 Curtis Glover, another one of Mrs. Routier's defense
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1342

1 attorneys.
2 MR. CURTIS GLOVER: Good morning. How
3 are you?
4 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay, sir.
5
6 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
7 Q. Okay. Anything come to mind at all?
8 Any cases you followed in the news? Of course, the only
9 one that has been in the news lately is that O.J. Simpson
10 case.
11 A. Yes, it's been a nightmare.
12 Q. It has.
13 A. Yes, sir, it has.
14 Q. Do you have any opinions about that
15 case, how that turned out the first time?

16 A. No, I don't guess so.
17 Q. Okay. This first question that we
18 have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, I'm going to

19 read that question and if you will just follow along with
20 me. It asks: "Do you find from the evidence beyond a

21 reasonable doubt that there is a probability that the
22 defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that
23 would constitute a continuing threat to society?"

24 Summarizing again, that is asking the
25 jurors: Do you think that the defendant is going to be a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1343

1 danger to society in the future?
2 We have to prove that from the facts
3 of the case, the murder itself, and any other evidence
4 you may have heard about the background.

5 Do you think, Mr. Samford, that if we
6 gave you enough evidence you could answer that question
7 correctly? I mean, "yes."
8 A. Yes, sir, I could I guess.
9 Q. Okay. Now, would the facts of the

10 offense itself, how the murder occurred, would that be
11 important to you in answering a question like that?
12 A. Well, I don't guess so.
13 Q. Okay. What about details about
14 whether there -- you know, there was much time thinking
15 about the killing, how cruel and brutal it was, those
16 kinds of things.
17 Was there any -- did they show any
18 remorse that they were sorry for it in any way? Would

19 that be important to you? Would that let you know about
20 what kind of person they are, in other words?
21 A. I don't think so.
22 Q. Okay. Why wouldn't that be important
23 to you? How they actually committed the murder.
24 A. Well, I don't know. It all depends on
25 what the circumstances, I guess, of how it was committed.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1344

1 Q. Okay. About how it was committed?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. And the thing is, Mr. Samford,
4 we can't tell you what we think the facts will be. So,
5 we kind of -- that is what makes this kind of interview
6 hard. Because we can't preview the facts for you, kind
7 of like they do in the movies or anything.
8 A. No.
9 Q. But do you think the facts might be
10 important just depending on what they are?
11 A. Yes, they would be.
12 Q. Okay. Are you aware of the method of
13 execution in Texas, Mr. Samford?
14 A. Yes, I am.

15 Q. What is your understanding on how they
16 take place now?
17 A. Well, it's with injection, I guess.
18 Q. Right, lethal injection. It used to
19 be by the electric chair.
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And now they do it by lethal
22 injection.
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And, you know, I think probably from
25 watching TV, that executions actually do take place in
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1345

1 Texas; is that right?
2 A. Yes, sir, they do.
3 Q. Okay. And my point is this, Mr.
4 Samford, it is a very real thing. You know, there are
5 some states out there that have the death penalty law?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. But they never actually impose it.
8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. They just have it, I guess, for show,
10 I don't know, but no one has ever been executed. In
11 Texas it has been.
12 A. Yes, it has.
13 Q. There have been over 100 executions in
14 Texas in the last -- about 15 years or so.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And, as you know, the method of
17 execution is by lethal injection.
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. I don't know if those executions that
20 you have ever read, how they are actually described, but,
21 you know, there are witnesses there.
22 A. Yes, sir, there are.
23 Q. It takes place in Huntsville, Texas.
24 They are strapped down on a hospital gurney and a needle
25 is put in their arm and a poison is injected into them.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1346

1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Are you telling me that you think you
3 could take part in this process if the case is proven to
4 you?
5 A. I guess so.
6 Q. Okay. What about the fact that the
7 defendant in this case is a woman? Does that make any
8 difference to you?
9 A. No, not at all.
10 Q. Do you think it should apply equally?
11 A. Yes, sir, it does.
12 Q. Okay. Judge Tolle went over a few

13 rules that apply to all cases. You have probably heard
14 of these: The presumption of innocence.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. The defendant has to be presumed to be
17 innocent at the beginning of the trial. Could you follow
18 that rule?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Okay. The defendant has a right not
21 to testify. You know, if they want to get up there and
22 testify as a witness on their own behalf, they can. No
23 one could stop them.
24 But if they choose not to, you can't
25 hold it against them as a juror. You can't use that as
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1347

1 evidence against them. Can you follow that rule of law?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. Also, the State has the burden
4 of proof, we have to prove the case beyond a reasonable
5 doubt. They don't have to prove anything to you. You

6 have to require the State to prove this to you beyond a
7 reasonable doubt. Can you follow that rule?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Okay. Mr. Samford, in your work
10 experience, did you -- or just your life experience, have
11 you ever seen any violent crimes, personally been a
12 witness to that, or been a victim of it?
13 A. No, sir, I have not.
14 Q. Okay. And I think you grew up in this
15 area of the country, right, Burnet?
16 A. Yes, about 80 miles northeast of here.
17 Q. Okay. Oh, this last question, this is
18 the last area I would like to get into. It's what we
19 call the mitigating question.

20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And they won't give you a definition
22 of what mitigating evidence is, sometimes I don't know
23 what they mean by mitigating. But all it means is, you
24 know, by the time you have reached that question, you
25 have already found the defendant guilty of capital
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1348

1 murder.
2 And you have already found that they
3 are going to be a future danger. Okay? So it's looking
4 pretty bad for them, they are a bad person.
5 But the situation is this: The law
6 says that if you see any evidence in their background
7 that you think in your heart and mind believe that they
8 should get a life sentence rather than a death sentence,
9 you could answer the question that way. It's kind of a
10 way out for the jury to show some mercy.
11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. I mean, they don't get off, they still
13 have to do a life sentence. You understand where they
14 are coming from?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Okay. And whatever is mitigating is
17 going to be up to you. Okay?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. You don't have to agree with the other
20 jurors at all, it's just a decision you have to make.

21 Let me give you a couple of examples: Let's say if you
22 had a capital murder defendant that had a degree from
23 Harvard, let's say, and he is a doctor.
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Some people would say, "Well, that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1349

1 could be mitigating. That is good and it works in his
2 favor. Because he is real smart and has done something

3 good with his life." Other people will say, "No, that is
4 wrong. Someone that smart should not do this kind of
5 thing."
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. So you can see where it works both
8 ways?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. Some people tell us, well, here
11 is an example: If you ever commit a murder, if -- let's
12 say, you go out and get drunk or you do drugs, and I mean
13 intentionally, in Texas, that is not a defense. You are
14 still held liable, you know.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. You are still held accountable.
17 However, sometimes people think that
18 should be mitigating in some way, should lessen a
19 person's blameworthiness. Other people say, "Actually,
20 no. You should hold it against them even more." How do
21 you feel about that?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Does that strike you one way or the
24 other at all?
25 A. Not really.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1350

1 Q. Okay.
2 A. I guess a person should be held
3 accountable for what he does.
4 Q. Okay. Mr. Samford, I went over the
5 different types of crimes that could get the death
6 penalty in Texas. We talked about murder of a police
7 officer, murder during a robbery, things like that.
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And in this particular case, murder of
10 a child under the age of six.
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Some people -- I mean, let me ask you
13 how you feel about that: Do you think that is the type
14 of crime that should be eligible for the death penalty?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Because there are just our children as
17 victims?
18 A. Yes, sir, I do.
19 Q. Okay. Do you think you can keep an
20 open mind and wait until all of the evidence is in before
21 these decisions are made?
22 A. Yes, sir, I do.
23 Q. Okay. Well, I appreciate your
24 patience with me.
25 A. Okay.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1351

1 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
4 Q. Mr. Samford, my name is -- excuse me,
5 I'm sorry, your Honor. Thank you.
6
7 THE COURT: That is quite all right.
8
9 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
10 Q. Mr. Samford, my name is Preston
11 Douglass, the Judge introduced me a minute ago.
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. One thing, and I know you don't
14 remember me, but I just want to make sure that if it is
15 something that comes up, you and I have talked about, so
16 no one thinks that I forgot to say something I should
17 have said.
18 Do you remember testifying in a trial
19 not too long ago about something to do with your work at
20 HEB? It may have been a year or two ago, and I think it
21 was in the municipal court.
22 A. Oh, yeah, I remember that.
23 Q. Do you remember that?
24 A. Oh, yeah. Yes, sir. I sure do. It's
25 been a while ago.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1352

1 Q. And it may have been longer than a
2 couple years ago. It was when I was city attorney, and I
3 can't remember --
4 A. Oh, yeah. Okay. About the old
5 fellow, yes, sir.
6 Q. Well, I can't -- I remember reading

7 your questionnaire, Mr. Samford, and I can't remember
8 what it was about. Do you remember what it was about?

9 A. About a customer coming in there. It
10 was --
11 Q. Oh, it was the guy that cussed
12 everybody out.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Okay. All right.
15 A. I forgot about that.
16 Q. It was a major crime.
17 A. I'm sorry about that. I forgot about
18 that.
19
20 THE COURT: That occurred in Kerr
21 County?
22 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Yes,

23 sir, it occurred in Kerr County. One of the few rude
24 people we have here.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1353

1 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
2 Q. I was involved in that when I did some
3 work for the city, but you don't remember me at all from
4 then?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. I am pretty forgettable.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. All right. But if it's --
9 there is nothing obviously. If you snap and remember
10 that I was involved in that thing, that won't cause you
11 any problem?
12 A. Okay. No, I don't care. I had forgot
13 about that thing, it's been a good long while back.
14 Q. Obviously, in representing our client,
15 we have a different perspective than the State does.
16 They are here to see that -- they have an objective and
17 they have a result that they want to obtain. And,
18 obviously, we, representing Darlie Routier, have a much
19 different objective. We have a different goal.
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And I know you have been up there a

22 little bit, but I want to talk to you for a little bit
23 about our perspective.

24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Mr. Shook said correctly that there is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1354

1 often two phases of a trial. There's often -- there is
2 always a guilt/innocence phase.
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Where you decide whether or not a

5 person did what they said he did. And, then, if you
6 think the person is guilty, then there is a punishment
7 phase, but there is not always a punishment phase.
8 You -- obviously, if someone decides that -- if the jury
9 decides that the person is not guilty, you don't ever
10 talk about punishment.
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. We anticipate that we're not going to
13 be talking about punishment. That there is just going to
14 be the guilt/innocence phase. And I want to talk to you
15 a little bit first about the law in the guilt/innocence
16 phase. Okay?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. If I get going too fast or something,
19 just stop me and make me repeat myself, because I can be
20 confusing.
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. You understand that Darlie Routier, as
23 she sits here, is presumed and is not guilty?
24 A. Yes, sir, at the time.
25 Q. Right, right now.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1355

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. They have not proved a single thing.
3 Do you agree with that?
4 A. Right. As far as I know, nothing has
5 been proven.
6 Q. Now, there has been what is called an
7 indictment, and that is a piece of paper that lets the
8 Judge have a trial.
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. That indictment is merely what the

11 State -- what the people representing the State believe
12 they can prove.
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. But that doesn't mean that she has
15 done anything. Do you agree with that?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay. There's -- some people use a
18 phrase and say, "That the people who do the accusing,
19 have to do the proving." Meaning: They say she did

20 something, so they have got to prove it.
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Does that sound fair to you?
23 A. Yes, sir, it does.
24 Q. Now, in a trial, it may come along
25 that they do some proving, but they have not satisfied to
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1356

1 Jimmie Samford that they have proven anything.
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. They may have tried to say -- let me
4 give you an example: They may try to say that this crime
5 occurred a certain way. That a person was killed, maybe
6 hit in the head with a baseball bat or something.
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. But, actually, you find out, that it's
9 not even the same -- they haven't even proven that the

10 person they say did it, did it. What do you think ought
11 to happen if they don't prove their case?
12 A. If they don't prove the case, I guess
13 the person will go free.
14 Q. Right. How do you feel about that?
15 A. Well, that is the law. I guess that
16 would be all right.
17 Q. Is that a law you follow? Do you
18 believe that?
19 A. If it cannot be proven, yes, sir.

20 Q. Now, you as a juror, would take an
21 oath. And you took an oath in that other case.
22 A. I did.
23 Q. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. And you take an oath and that oath --
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1357

1 part of that oath is that you are going to follow the
2 law, and that is that you would hold these guys to their
3 burden of proof. That you make them prove their case?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay. Would you do that if you take
6 that oath?
7 A. They need to prove it.
8 Q. Right. Now, taking that one step

9 further, Mr. Samford, there is no obligation on the
10 attorneys representing the defendant to put on any case
11 at all. We don't have to put on any evidence. If we
12 believe that they have not proven their case. Now, if

13 you get in a trial, and you have not -- and you hear one
14 side of the story --
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. -- but the defendant doesn't put on
17 any evidence --
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. -- we don't have to. Do you agree
20 with that?
21 A. Well, it should be proven, I guess.
22 Q. Okay. I was looking at your
23 questionnaire and there was one question in there that
24 you answered that said that you were not sure if a
25 defendant would have to prove that he or she is innocent.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1358

1 The way our law works is that we don't
2 have to bring you proof that someone is innocent or not
3 guilty. The burden is on them, and there is no burden on
4 the State (sic) to prove someone's innocence. Do you
5 agree with that?
6
7 THE COURT: I think you said that
8 wrong -- there is no burden on the defense.
9 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Yeah,

10 I'm sorry. There is no burden on the defense to prove
11 that a client or the person charged is not guilty.
12 THE COURT: Clear that up. The State
13 has to prove her guilty. The defendant -- the defense
14 does not have to prove her innocence. If they can't

15 prove her guilt, she goes free. Do you understand that?
16 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
17 THE COURT: And they don't have to do
18 one thing. Do you understand that?
19 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I just wanted to
21 clear that part up.
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
23 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.: Thank
24 you, Your Honor.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1359

1 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
2 Q. So if the defendant decides not to put
3 on any evidence, you understand that that is the
4 defendant's right?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay. Likewise, a defendant does not
7 have to come and sit in that chair you are sitting in and
8 testify. They can if they want to, but they don't have
9 to tell anything.
10 A. I see. Okay.
11 Q. They can't be forced to testify.
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Some people don't testify because they
14 are afraid they are going to be so nervous that they will
15 be confused.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Some people may not testify because

18 their lawyers will say, "They haven't proven a thing.
19 There is no reason for you to testify. They have not
20 proven anything."
21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Meaning the State. Do you agree that
23 a person who is accused of a crime should not have to
24 testify?
25 A. I believe they should testify.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1360

1 Q. Should or should not?
2 A. Should.
3 Q. Okay. If you are listening to a
4 trial --
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. -- and the Judge tells you that it is
7 the law, that the person accused does not have to take
8 the stand, does not have to say anything --
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. -- can you follow that law? Can you
11 put that aside?
12 A. Well, I will have to, yes. I would
13 have to.
14 Q. Okay. What really becomes important
15 about that, Mr. Samford, is if you have heard the State
16 put on evidence --
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. -- and you have not heard anything
19 from the defendant, can you judge the evidence as a juror
20 only on what the State has put on? Only the evidence
21 they have brought to you. Can you judge it only on that
22 evidence?
23 A. I guess so. Yes, sir.
24 Q. In a trial, this side has to bring the
25 State, the lawyers representing the State, have to bring
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1361

1 evidence to prove someone guilty. Do you agree with me
2 on that?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. All right. And in the course of the
5 trial, you, as a juror, have the ability to sit and
6 listen to that evidence and say, "That evidence proves
7 something to me," or "That evidence doesn't prove
8 anything."
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Do you -- when you were in a trial
11 over in the Center Point case, was that up at the
12 courthouse at the Kerr County Courthouse?
13 A. Yes, sir, it was.
14 Q. All right. Was that that trial about
15 two coaches that got in a fight right out in the middle
16 of the field?
17 A. Only one, only one was a coach.
18 Q. Okay. So it was a coach that got in a
19 fight with another person. Right?
20 A. No, there was some -- I don't think it
21 was a fight. I think it was just some words.
22 Q. Okay. Was there anything about that
23 trial that you remember? Or anything about being a juror
24 that you didn't like?
25 A. No, I don't think so.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1362

1 Q. Did you like being a juror?
2 A. Well, it's hard to prosecute somebody,
3 yes.
4 Q. It's hard work, right?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Now, when you say it's hard to
7 prosecute somebody, you understand that as a defendant
8 sits on trial, they have the absolute right to be
9 presumed innocent?
10 A. Yes, sir, they do.
11 Q. All right. And you are not going
12 to -- and really, what is more important about that is
13 that you not believe someone is guilty just because they
14 are having a trial.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Do you feel like that because there is
17 a trial that you can say, "I am not going to believe that
18 person did anything until they prove it"?
19 A. They need to prove it to me.
20 Q. Okay. And who do you believe are the
21 ones that need to prove the case?
22 A. Well, I guess the State would need to
23 prove it.
24 Q. Okay. Great. In a trial they have to
25 prove their case, there is a level that they have to
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1363

1 prove their case to. And you have probably heard the
2 term "reasonable doubt"?
3 A. Yes, sir, I have.
4 Q. Okay. And reasonable doubt means that
5 if you come along during the trial, and you believe you
6 have a doubt about the case, and that doubt is based on
7 what you think is a reasoned doubt, you think to
8 yourself, I have thought this thing through, and I
9 believe that there are questions in my mind. If you have
10 a question in your mind about an outcome about whether or
11 not the State has proven its case, what do you believe
12 it's your obligation to do?
13 A. Well --
14 Q. If you are sitting there and you hear
15 the evidence --
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. -- and you think, I have a doubt about
18 whether they have proven their case, the State. In that
19 situation, what do you believe the result is supposed to
20 be?
21 A. Well, I think -- I don't know myself.
22 Q. All right. I'm saying -- I am
23 confusing you on that.
24 A. Yes, I think so.
25 Q. Let's say we were in a trial in a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1364

1 make-believe situation.
2 A. Okay.

3 Q. And you hear a police officer come
4 testify.
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. The police officer says, "I believe
7 that the person who is sitting over there, the defendant,
8 did this. And let me tell you why." And the police
9 officer gives three reasons they think the person
10 committed the crime.
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. But to you it doesn't make sense, it
13 doesn't add up. So you have a reasonable doubt in your
14 mind.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. If you have a reasonable doubt in your
17 mind about what is being told to you, do you agree that
18 the law says that you have to say not guilty?
19 A. Well, I guess not.
20 Q. Okay.
21
22 THE COURT: I don't think he
23 understands the question.
24 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I don't
25 understand.
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1365

1 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
2 Q. Let me try it one other way. And I am
3 the one confusing you, and I understand that. Reasonable
4 doubt --
5
6 THE COURT: Sir, I know you are a
7 little nervous.
8 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, I am.
9 THE COURT: I can tell that by your
10 voice. All you do -- there are no right or wrong answers
11 here, there is not going to be a test. You can be a
12 member of the Flat Earth Society, nobody is going to
13 disagree with you.
14 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: So, just relax and answer
16 the questions. Nobody is trying to trick you.
17 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: All right.
18
19 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
20 Q. If you are a juror --
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. -- you have to decide, did they prove
23 their case?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. You have to say, "Well, the Judge told
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1366

1 me, they are the ones that have to prove their case."
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Did they prove their case? If you
4 have a reasonable doubt --
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. -- if you think, I don't think they
7 proved it.
8 A. No.
9 Q. What do you believe happens when they
10 don't prove their case?
11 A. Well --
12 Q. If they don't prove their case, do you
13 believe that the person goes free? Or, if they prove
14 their case, do you think they go to jail?
15 A. If they prove their case, they go to
16 jail.
17 Q. Okay. What happens if they don't
18 prove their case?
19 A. The person will go free.
20 Q. Okay. Now, do you agree with that?
21 That if they don't prove what they say they are going to
22 prove --
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. -- that the person should go free?
25 A. If they can't prove it, yes, sir, they
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1367

1 go free.
2 Q. Do you agree with that?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. All right. I want to ask you a little
5 bit about police officers. I believe that there will be
6 a number of police officers testify.
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Can you listen to a police officer's

9 testimony, and as a juror, judge it just like any other
10 person?
11 A. Yes, sir, I think so.
12 Q. Okay. By that I mean, would you tend
13 to believe or put more weight on a police officer's
14 testimony, or do you judge it just like everybody else?
15 A. Weigh what the policeman says?

16 Q. Okay. Hold on one second here.
17
18 THE COURT: You need to clarify that a
19 little bit.
20 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Can I
21 approach the bench, your Honor?
22 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
23
24 (Whereupon, a short
25 Discussion was held
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1368

1 Off the record, after
2 Which time the
3 Proceedings were resumed
4 As follows:)
5
6 THE COURT: All right. Sir, I know
7 are nervous this morning.
8 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.

9 THE COURT: You are not going to
10 believe -- you can't believe anybody just because of who
11 they are.
12 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
13 THE COURT: Now, if a police officer
14 gets up here and testifies, you have got to decide, does
15 his testimony -- does that comport with reality as I know
16 it? You are not going to believe him just because he is
17 a police officer, are you?
18 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: No, sir.
19 THE COURT: All right. Now, can you
20 listen to the testimony from both sides? If you don't
21 think Mr. Shook has proven his case, you can find her not
22 guilty. Is that a fair statement?
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
24 THE COURT: And she doesn't have to do
25 one thing other than just sit there the whole trial. You
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1369

1 understand that?
2 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
3 THE COURT: That is her right under
4 the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of the United

5 States. That is yours also, if you were ever on trial,
6 you can do that.
7 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
8 THE COURT: And you can put aside any
9 belief you may have, pro or con, or anything, and follow
10 the law. Is that a fair statement?
11 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I will.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else you
15 want to ask?
16 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Yes,
17 just a few things.
18 THE COURT: Sure. Go ahead.
19 I know you are nervous this morning.
20 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, I am.

21 THE COURT: I can tell you are
22 nervous.
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir, I
24 am.
25 THE COURT: But just calm down.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1370

1 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
2
3 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
4 Q. So, Mr. Samford, if I understand
5 right, if she doesn't -- if a defendant in a case
6 decides, either because the lawyers tell the person to or
7 because they just decide they are too nervous, if that
8 person decides they are not going to testify, are you
9 going to hold it against that person?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. You understand that is their right?
12 A. Yes, sir, that is their right.
13 Q. Okay. I want to ask you a little bit
14 about the death penalty. I don't like to talk about this
15 part of it, because that is a part of the trial that we
16 are expecting not to get to.

17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. But I want to ask you: Have you
19 always felt in favor of the death penalty?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Do you feel like if a person is
22 charged with capital murder --

23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. -- and then is found guilty of capital
25 murder --
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1371

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. -- do you believe that means that they
3 automatically get the death penalty? Or do you believe
4 that you could consider a life sentence?
5 A. Well, I guess a life sentence.
6 Q. You could consider that?

7 A. Yes, I could consider it.
8 Q. All right. I noticed in your
9 questionnaire that you put down that you feel like the
10 death penalty -- you made a statement about the death
11 penalty. I want to ask you if this is the way you feel

12 about it now. You said that, "Although I do not believe
13 that the death penalty ever ought to be invoked, as long
14 as the law provides for it, I could assess the death
15 penalty under proper circumstances."

16 A. Yes, sir, I could.
17 Q. Let me break that down in parts. Do
18 you agree with the statement that you don't think the
19 death penalty ought to be invoked?

20 A. It should be.
21 Q. Okay. Do you think it should be
22 invoked all the time or under proper circumstances?

23 A. Proper circumstances, yes, of course.
24 Q. Okay.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1372

1 THE COURT: Anything else?
2 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Hold on
3 one second.
4
5 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
6 Q. Mr. Samford, thank you very much.
7 A. Okay.
8
9 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: I don't
10 have any further questions.
11 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I am pretty
12 nervous.
13 THE COURT: Can you step outside just
14 a minute, please, sir. Don't go away yet. We will be
15 calling you back in a minute.
16 Just for the record, are you any
17 relation to Charles Samford?
18 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I guess not.
19 Samford, right?
20 THE COURT: Just a cousin someplace,
21 but you don't know him. Right?
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: No, sir, I
23 didn't know him until I moved here.
24 THE COURT: Thank you very much. All
25 right.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1373

1 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Thank you.
2
3 (Whereupon, the prospective

4 juror was excused from the
5 room, and the following

6 proceedings were held,
7 outside of his presence
8 as follows:)
9
10 THE COURT: All right.
11
12 (Whereupon, a short

13 Discussion was held
14 Off the record, after
15 Which time the

16 Proceedings were resumed
17 as follows:)
18
19 THE COURT: All right. What says the
20 State?
21 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: The State accepts
22 the juror.
23 THE COURT: What says the defense?
24 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: We would
25 accept the juror.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1374

1 THE COURT: Thank you. Bring in Mr.
2 Samford.
3 Mr. Samford, I have some good news for
4 you, you have been accepted as a juror in this case.
5 THE JUROR: Oh, I have been accepted,
6 huh?
7 THE COURT: Yes, that's right, quality
8 and talent shows. This trial is not going to start until
9 the 6th of January.
10 THE JUROR: Okay, sir.
11 THE COURT: So, if you could just

12 remember between now and then, just don't speak about
13 anything to anybody about the trial. When you leave
14 today if somebody asks you what happened, then you can
15 just tell them they asked you some questions.
16 THE JUROR: Yes, sir.

17 THE COURT: And don't talk about the
18 trial with anybody. If you see anything in the paper, on
19 TV, or hear it on the radio, just ignore it. Fair
20 enough?
21 THE JUROR: Yes, sir, it is.
22 THE COURT: And just be back -- we
23 will be calling you.
24 Mr. Navarre, you will be calling them
25 after the first of the year telling them when and where
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1375

1 to come.
2 We will be having it in the courthouse
3 down here. People have accused me of wanting to have it
4 here, but that is just a bald-faced rumor. We are not
5 going to have it here, we are going to have it down at
6 the courthouse.
7 THE JUROR: Okay, sir.
8 THE COURT: So, we will see you then.
9 Here's two things I have to tell you: There is gag order
10 on it, so don't talk about it. I can impose monetary
11 sanctions or jail time. I'm not trying to threaten you,
12 but I have to tell you. Okay?
13 THE JUROR: Yes, sir.
14 THE COURT: Fair enough? So we will
15 see you on the 6th.
16 THE JUROR: Okay, sir.

17 THE COURT: Good luck.
18 THE JUROR: You bet.

19 THE COURT: Thank you. All right.
20 Who is the next one?
21 Your name, sir?
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Kody Bradshaw.
23 THE COURT: Okay. All right. This is
24 112, ladies and gentlemen, on the jury list, but it's
25 number 40 on our list.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1376

1 I notice you spell your name with a
2 "K"; is that correct?
3 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
4 THE COURT: So it's K-O-D-Y, A.
5 Bradshaw; is that right, sir?
6 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
7 THE COURT: If you will raise your
8 right hand, please.
9 Do you solemnly swear or affirm you

10 will true answers give to all the questions propounded to
11 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
12 you God?
13 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
14
15
16 (Whereupon, the prospective

17 juror was duly sworn by the
18 Court to true answers make
19 to the questions propounded,

20 concerning qualifications, after
21 which time, the proceedings were
22 resumed as follows:)
23

24 THE COURT: All right. You are here
25 on the Darlie Routier matter, Mrs. Routier is sitting
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1377

1 there in the burgundy dress. She is represented by Mr.
2 Preston Douglass and Mr. Curtis Glover.
3 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Good
4 morning.
5 MR. CURTIS GLOVER: Good morning.

6 THE COURT: The State of Texas is
7 represented by Mr. Toby Shook and Ms. Sherri Wallace.
8 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Good morning.
9 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Good morning.

10 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Good morning.
11 THE COURT: Both sides are going to
12 ask you some questions. If you don't understand any

13 question, just tell them to say it again.
14 You might lean up and speak into that
15 microphone because Ms. Halsey has to take all of this
16 down.
17 So who will go for the State?
18 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: I will, Your
19 Honor.
20 THE COURT: Ms. Wallace, very well.
21 Go ahead.
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1378

1 Whereupon,
2
3 KODY A. BRADSHAW,
4
5 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of
6 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
8 true, testified in open court, as follows:
9
10 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
13 Q. Hello, Mr. Bradshaw.
14 A. Hello.
15 Q. My name, as the Judge just introduced
16 me, is Sherri Wallace, I am an Assistant District
17 Attorney in Dallas. I'm going to spend the next few
18 minutes talking to you about your questionnaire, and how
19 you feel about the death penalty, and the general
20 principles of law that will apply in this type of case.
21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. And if you have got any questions for
24 me, just let me know because I will try to answer them.
25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. I first off want to thank you for
2 filling out your questionnaire, it was a big help. I

3 appreciate the time that it took, I know it was lengthy.
4 Did it take long?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Okay. Good. Good. Some people say
7 it took them forever, so I appreciate it.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. There are no right or wrong answers,
10 just to kind of let us know how you feel about things,
11 and we will get through with this. Okay?
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. I don't expect you know any of the
14 folks from Dallas. Do you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Do you know the two guys that
17 are from -- that have been hired to represent the
18 defendant here from Kerrville?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Preston Douglass is one. Richard
21 Mosty was introduced last week, no, excuse me, two weeks
22 ago. You didn't recognize him either?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Fair enough.
25 In here it says that you have heard
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1380

1 about the case from television.
2 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
3 affirmatively.)
4 Q. And I want to talk to you a little bit
5 about that. What we're looking for are two things: One,
6 we need a juror that will wait, and wait until the
7 evidence is presented in the courtroom before they make
8 up their mind.
9 A. My mind is made up.
10 Q. Well, I want to talk to you a little
11 bit about that.
12 A. I'm not changing it.
13 Q. Okay. Well, just hear me out.
14
15 THE COURT: We have to have some
16 questions that have to be answered, so please be
17 cooperative for a few minutes.
18 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
19
20 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
21 Q. It's pretty much human nature to read
22 about something --
23 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
24 affirmatively.)
25 Q. -- and kind of make up your mind.
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1381

1 Let's talk about a case that is in the news right now.
2 You know that guy in Atlanta that had supposedly done the
3 bombing, Richard Jewell. Well --
4 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
5 affirmatively.)
6
7 THE COURT: Sir, could you say yes or
8 no, Ms. Halsey has to get all this down. We can't take

9 down the uh-huhs.
10 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
11 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Thank you.
12
13 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:

14 Q. Pretty much probably in everybody's
15 mind he was good for it, and he was as good as convicted.
16 And I think we have now seen that the FBI just made a
17 huge error, and a guy got his life ruined because of the
18 press. Now, would you agree with that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. So I will tell you, I have
21 seen, not everything the press has printed about this
22 case, but I have seen most of it. And I'm just going to
23 be up front with you, some of it they have gotten right,
24 and some of it is just flat wrong, and that is why it is
25 so important to wait. This decision is a huge, important
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1382

1 decision. It is the life or death of that woman sitting
2 over there. And in your own personal affairs, I assume
3 that you get all of the facts before you make decisions.
4 Isn't that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Business and stuff like that?

7 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
8 affirmatively.) Yes.
9 Q. And what we're looking for here is
10 somebody that cannot have an automatic, knee-jerk
11 reaction. Can have the mental discipline to set aside
12 the junk they have heard or seen and wait until you get

13 the absolute facts from -- in the courtroom. Do you have
14 that mental discipline, Mr. Bradshaw?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. So, are you telling me that you
17 have formed an opinion about this case?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. And are you telling me that
20 your opinion would influence your verdict?
21 A. Yes.
22
23 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Thank you, sir.
24 THE COURT: All right. Pass the
25 juror.
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1383

1 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Judge, I
2 would assert challenge for cause.
3 THE COURT: What opinion have you
4 formed?
5 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: That she is
6 guilty.
7 THE COURT: And how have you formed
8 that opinion?
9 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Well, just
10 from what I have seen and heard.
11 THE COURT: From hearsay and things
12 you have heard?
13 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Uh-huh.
14 (Witness nodding head affirmatively.)
15 THE COURT: Do you feel that would
16 influence your verdict?
17 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
18 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
19 All right. Either side challenge the witness?
20 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Yes,
21 Your Honor, we challenge for cause.
22 THE COURT: All right. Challenge for
23 cause is granted. Thank you for coming. You may leave.
24 All right. Let's go ahead and bring
25 in the next -- this is Charles Samford, another Samford
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1384

1 here.
2 Can I see Mr. Bradshaw again just a
3 minute, please.
4 Sir, there is a gag order in effect in
5 the case. Please talk about nothing that have you heard
6 here. Is that clear?
7 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
8 THE COURT: Fine. Thank you.

9 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Uh-huh.
10 (Witness nodding head affirmatively.)
11 THE COURT: I can impose monetary
12 sanctions or Kerr County Jail time if you --
13 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: No, I'm not
14 going to talk about it.
15 THE COURT: Thank you.
16 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Uh-huh.
17 (Witness nodding head affirmatively.)
18 THE COURT: All right. Come on in,
19 sir, and make yourself comfortable.
20 All right. If you will raise your
21 right -- you are Charles Samford, S-A-M-F-O-R-D.
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
23 THE COURT: If you will raise your
24 right hand, please.
25 Do you solemnly swear or affirm you
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1385

1 will true answers make to all the questions propounded to
2 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
3 you God?
4 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
5
6 (Whereupon, the prospective

7 juror was duly sworn by the
8 Court to true answers make

9 to the questions propounded,
10 concerning qualifications, after
11 which time, the proceedings were
12 resumed as follows:)
13

14 THE COURT: All right. Just for the
15 record, you are Charles Samford, S-A-M-F-O-R-D.
16 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.

17 THE COURT: That is juror 95 on the
18 list, 34 on our list. Are you any relation to Jimmie
19 Samford who was here just before you, that you know?

20 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: About fifteen
21 times removed, I guess.
22 THE COURT: Fifteen times removed,
23 well, I think that is far enough.
24 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I don't know
25 where it is, but --
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1386

1 THE COURT: Well, I'm sure it is
2 somewhere back along the line.
3 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Shirttail
4 cousins.
5 THE COURT: There you go, shirttail
6 cousins, with long shirttails. Got it. All right.
7 All right. You are here on the Darlie
8 Routier matter, and Mrs. Routier is the lady in the
9 burgundy dress right here. She is the defendant. She is
10 represented by Mr. Curtis Glover from Dallas, and Mr.
11 Preston Douglass from Kerrville.
12 MR. CURTIS GLOVER: Good morning.

13 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.: Good
14 morning.
15 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Good morning.
16 THE COURT: The State is represented
17 by the Dallas County District Attorney's Office. Today
18 we have Mr. Toby Shook and Ms. Sherri Wallace.
19 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Good morning.

20 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Good morning.
21 THE COURT: They will both be asking
22 you questions. There are no right or wrong answers, just
23 relax. Who is going to go for the State?
24 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: I will, your
25 Honor.
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1387

1 THE COURT: All right.
2 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: May it please the
3 Court?
4
5 Whereupon,
6
7 CHARLES SAMFORD,
8
9 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of

10 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
12 true, testified in open court, as follows:
13
14 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
15
16 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:

17 Q. Hi.
18 A. Hello.
19 Q. Again, my name is Sherri Wallace and I
20 am an Assistant District Attorney in Dallas. And let me
21 ask you, Mr. Samford, when we were introduced last week,
22 did you know any of the Dallas lawyers?
23 A. No, I don't know any of them.
24 Q. Okay. And you don't even know the
25 guys here locally from Kerrville?
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1388

1 A. No.
2 Q. Mr. Douglass or Richard Mosty?
3 A. I know Richard Mosty's name, I don't
4 know him personally.
5 Q. Okay. Anything about what you know
6 about his name --
7 A. No.
8 Q. -- that would affect you here?
9 A. No, his name is Richard Mosty is all I
10 know.
11 Q. Okay. You just heard it around town?
12 A. Yes, ma'am.
13 Q. All right. I'm going to talk with you
14 a little bit about your questionnaire and a little bit

15 about how you feel about the death penalty. And then
16 talk to you about some general principles of law that
17 will apply in this type of case.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. And, there is no right or wrong
20 answers, just let me know how you feel. And, I
21 appreciate you filling out your questionnaire, it was

22 very helpful. And thank you for the time you took to do
23 that.
24 If you have any questions for me, just
25 let me know. Just ask them. Because if I am not
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1389

1 explaining it well enough, that is my fault, not yours.
2 Okay?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. I see here that you are in favor of
5 the death penalty. Can you tell me a little bit about
6 why you have that opinion?
7 A. Not really, it's just a belief or

8 feeling or whatever you want to call it that I have. And
9 if I don't have -- I mean, I don't want to sentence no

10 one to death. But, you know, if it needs to be, I feel
11 that I can do it.
12 Q. All right. Do you have any thoughts
13 about what a person -- what kind of person needs to be
14 sentenced to death?
15 A. Well --
16 Q. I know it's not something you sit
17 around and think about.
18 A. It would have to be a pretty bad
19 offense.
20 Q. All right.

21 A. Bad, bad.
22 Q. Bad, bad?

23 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
24 affirmatively.)
25 Q. All right. Would it be something that
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1390

1 you could tell from one crime, if the crime was bad
2 enough, could you sentence somebody to death based on
3 that?
4 A. Honestly, I would have to look at all
5 of their previous life, I think.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. To see how they dealt with that part
8 of it.
9 Q. All right. Well, let's say, I mean,
10 you got a church choir boy. Okay? And he is good, has
11 not ever done anything wrong. But then he goes out and
12 does something that is just so horrible, so brutal, and
13 so heinous, that you cannot almost even imagine it.

14 Could it be possible for you to
15 consider the death penalty in that sort of case?

16 A. If need be, if it was -- I would have
17 to go by each case own by its own.
18 Q. That's all we're looking for.
19 A. But I mean, if something was so
20 heinous, I could -- I wouldn't have -- I am not going to
21 say I wouldn't have a problem doing it, but I could do
22 it.
23 Q. All right.
24 A. Anybody that don't have a problem
25 doing it needs help theirself.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1391

1 Q. We don't want anybody that is applying
2 for the job, Mr. Samford. Nobody feels like that, I
3 don't think.
4 Well, let me just stop right here for
5 a minute and tell you this: Do you see that woman down

6 there?
7 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
8 affirmatively.)
9 Q. It is our goal to see that she is put
10 to death. We believe we have the type of case and the
11 quality of evidence to do that. And what that method

12 will be is by lethal injection. She will be strapped
13 down on a gurney with many straps, she may be kicking and
14 screaming, she may be pleading her innocence even at that
15 point after everything is exhausted.
16 But, nevertheless, after the jury has
17 made their finding, she will be put to death. Could you
18 participate in that sort of process?
19 A. If that is what it takes.
20 Q. If that is what you decide is right?
21 A. Yes, ma'am.
22 Q. All right. I see that you have served
23 on a jury before. What kind of experience was that for
24 you?
25 A. It was not really no experience. It
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1392

1 was a jailer -- a jailer that couldn't speak English, and
2 he miswrote some papers, and a guy was in there for DWI
3 and got off. That was about the end of it.
4 Q. Okay. The jailer didn't really
5 understand the system?
6 A. They didn't either. Hispanic, there
7 you go.
8 Q. Okay. He didn't even speak English
9 that well?
10 A. Not real good.
11 Q. All right. You listened to the
12 evidence and thought he was not guilty.
13 A. We didn't even get to do nothing, the
14 Judge kicked it out himself.
15 Q. Oh, before it even went to y'all?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Fair enough. I see that
18 you have not heard about this case; is that right?
19 A. No ma'am. And I do not read about it,
20 and I do not watch it on TV.
21 Q. Okay. So you are not really familiar
22 with the facts?
23 A. No, ma'am.
24 Q. That is what we're really looking for,
25 somebody that will wait and hear the evidence in this
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1393

1 courtroom. It sounds like you won't have any problem
2 doing that. Will you?

3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. In Texas, we have a death
5 penalty statute that is very specific, in that there are
6 only certain crimes where you can get the death penalty.
7 You can't get the death penalty for every murder in
8 Texas.
9 You have to have murder, kind of plus
10 something else. It might be the type of victim, or it
11 might be another crime in conjunction with the murder.

12 Let me give you some examples: If you
13 have a murder of a police officer while he is in the line
14 of duty or a fireman, that would be a death penalty case,
15 or the murder of a prison guard while he is on duty.
16 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
17 affirmatively.)
18 Q. If you have the murder of more than
19 one person, that would be a crime that would be eligible
20 for the death penalty.
21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. Or if you are murdering for money,
24 murder for hire, either the person hiring the murder done
25 or the actual hit man. Two people that would be eligible
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1394

1 for the death penalty.
2 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
3 affirmatively.)
4 Q. Or it could be murder in the course of
5 another type of offense, like a robbery or kidnapping or
6 a rape, something like that.
7 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
8 affirmatively.)
9 Q. Or as in this case, it could be a
10 murder of a child under the age of six. Let me ask you,
11 Mr. Samford, do you think those are all appropriate types
12 of cases for the death penalty?

13 A. Yes, ma'am.
14 Q. Okay. Is there anything else you
15 would add to that list if you were Governor of Texas?

16 A. No. There is, but we don't have time
17 to go through the list.
18 Q. Well, I've got some time.
19 A. Well, never mind.
20
21 THE COURT: All right. Maybe you want
22 to go on to the next question.
23
24 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
25 Q. That seems like a fair list to you; is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1395

1 that right?
2 A. Yes, ma'am.
3 Q. All right. Well, here in Texas, we
4 don't just say, "Guilty, life, or guilty, death." Here

5 is how it goes: You have your first phase of the trial,
6 that is called the guilt/innocence phase. And I think
7 that it's kind of the part that you sat half way through
8 in that DWI case.
9 And that is when the State has to

10 prove the indictment to a juror. If we do that, the
11 defendant is found guilty. If we don't do that, the
12 defendant is found not guilty.

13 But if we do that, you go on to answer
14 two questions, and they are up here on the board. But
15 let me talk to you a little bit about the guilt/innocence
16 phase before we get to the questions in the death penalty
17 phase.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. In the guilt/innocence phase we have
20 to prove the indictment. And the indictment is in front
21 of you, I think, right there, Mr. Samford. Do you see
22 it?
23 A. Yes, I will in a minute.
24 Q. See that type-written portion?
25 "Unlawfully then and there, intentionally and knowingly
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1396

1 caused the death of Damon Christian Routier, an
2 individual, herein after called deceased, by stabbing
3 said Damon Christian Routier with a knife. And the
4 deceased was at the time of the offense under six years
5 of age."
6 That is what we must prove to you
7 beyond a reasonable doubt. And we can do that several
8 ways. We can do that through direct evidence or

9 indirect, what is sometimes called circumstantial
10 evidence.
11 Direct evidence would be eyewitness
12 testimony. In other words, I saw her kill him in this
13 manner. Okay? But in murder cases, oftentimes we won't
14 have an eyewitness. And if you think about it, it makes
15 sense, because the eyewitness to the crime is dead.

16 And you know from the Judge's comments
17 two weeks ago, that you can't call the defendant to the
18 stand. She doesn't have to testify. So, we might have
19 to prove that case other ways.
20 Do you follow where sometimes in a
21 murder case or oftentimes you would not have an
22 eyewitness?
23 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
24 affirmatively.)
25 Q. Okay. You see, the defendant picks
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1397

1 the time and the place for the crime, not the victim. So
2 the defendant has the most control over whether or not
3 there's witnesses. Do you follow that part?
4 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
5 affirmatively.)
6 Q. So it may be that we must prove our

7 case through indirect or circumstantial evidence. And
8 that is everything else: Fingerprints, DNA, blood
9 spatters, fibers, statements by the defendant that don't
10 comport with the crime scene, it could be any number of
11 things. And we can use that type of evidence, that

12 circumstantial evidence, to convince you beyond a
13 reasonable doubt that the defendant is good for it.

14 Could you convict somebody of capital
15 murder if we proved it beyond a reasonable doubt, based
16 on circumstantial evidence alone?
17 A. If you proved it beyond a reasonable
18 doubt.
19 Q. All right. Additionally, on there --
20
21 THE COURT: In all these question, let
22 me interject, assume that you believe the evidence.
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
24
25
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1398

1 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
2 Q. On there, on that indictment, it told
3 you what we have to prove to you. And one of the things
4 it didn't say, was it didn't say that we had to prove

5 motive to you. Okay? We don't have to prove motive.
6 Now, there is really a good reason for that.
7 And the reason is, is that we can't
8 call the defendant to the stand, and we can't get into
9 the defendant's mind, and she has an absolute right not
10 the testify.

11 So, it may be that through the course
12 of things, that the motive becomes clear as day to you.
13 And it may be that there are several different types of
14 motive, different kinds of motive. You may believe one
15 was the most important, another juror may believe another
16 one is most important, and that is just kind of
17 interesting stuff, but really that is not what we have to
18 prove. It may be that you just don't ever know the
19 motive, you might not ever, ever know.
20 Could you convict, if we prove the
21 case to you beyond a reasonable doubt, even if you didn't
22 know the motive?
23 A. If you proved beyond a reasonable
24 doubt, there is a lot of things there is no reason for.
25 You know, the reason why, but I don't let that bother me.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1399

1 Q. Okay. Once the case has been proved
2 to you and you found the defendant guilty, we go to the
3 next phase of the trial. And in that phase, it's called
4 the punishment phase, you may or may not hear more
5 evidence, it just kind of depends.
6 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
7 affirmatively.)

8 Q. As you know, I can't talk to you about
9 the facts of this case. But when we move to that phase
10 after whatever evidence, if any, is presented, you will
11 be asked to answer these two questions. And like I said,
12 you don't just say, "Death or life." You answer these
13 questions and if you answer this one "yes," and this one,
14 "no," she dies. The Judge has no option but to impose a
15 death sentence on the defendant. Okay?
16 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
17 affirmatively.)
18 Q. Okay. If you answer this anything
19 other than "yes," "no," and if you answer this
20 differently than "no," then it's a life sentence. Okay?
21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. Is that confusing enough?
24 A. Yes, ma'am.
25
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1400

1 THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, I
2 cannot hear his answers, if he is answering.
3 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: I'm sorry.
4 THE COURT: Could you lean up, pull
5 that mike back and just speak into it.
6 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: She has to -- she
7 has a little thing that looks kind of like a typewriter
8 up there, and she has to take it all down. She can't
9 take down nods or a shake.
10 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I forgot about
11 the stenographer.
12 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Okay.
13
14 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
15 Q. Do you find from the evidence beyond a
16 reasonable doubt that there is a probability that the
17 defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that
18 would constitute a continuing threat to society?
19 Let me ask you a few things about that
20 question. What does the word "probability" mean to you,
21 Mr. Samford?
22 A. Probably did it or probably did
23 something, but not sure they did it.
24 Q. Okay. And, what does the phrase "that
25 the defendant would commit criminal acts of violence,"
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1401

1 what are criminal acts of violence to you?
2 A. Well, violence is hurting somebody and
3 a criminal act would be hurting somebody pretty bad.
4 Q. Okay. So some sort of harm or injury
5 to another person?
6 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
7 affirmatively.)
8 Q. And "a continuing threat to society,"
9 I want to ask you what you think about the word
10 "society". Some people think -- well, do you believe
11 that society includes people such as prison guards,
12 people visiting the prison, chaplains, or people doing
13 volunteer work in the prison, even other inmates? Do you
14 think that is included, that everyone is included in
15 society?
16 A. Everybody is society.
17 Q. Okay. So, from that question: Do you
18 find from the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt -- that
19 question is presumed to be answered "no," just like the
20 defendant is presumed to be not guilty. You have to
21 presume the answer "no." And we have the obligation and
22 the duty to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that
23 the defendant will be a continuing threat to society.
24 Can you hold us to that burden, Mr. Samford?
25 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
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1402

1 affirmatively.)
2 Q. Okay. What that really means, it's
3 another way of saying that you have just found somebody

4 guilty of capital murder of killing a child under the age
5 of six. You can't automatically answer that question
6 "yes." Okay?
7 Now let me back up a minute. It may
8 be that you don't hear anything else. It may be that the
9 crime is so bad, that's all you need to know. But you
10 can't -- you have got to just tell the Court that you
11 will rethink about the evidence, just kind of revisit the
12 question, if you will, and not automatically do anything.
13 Could you do that?
14 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
15 affirmatively.)
16 Q. All right.
17
18 THE COURT: Is that a yes?
19 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, ma'am,
20 I'm sorry.
21 THE COURT: Ms. Halsey is taking all
22 this down. She can't take down --
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I'm sorry,
24 Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: No problem. We're doing
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1403

1 it for her, but she can't take down either uh-huh or
2 huh-uh.
3
4 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
5 Q. After that question is answered "yes,"
6 you go to the next question: "Taking into consideration
7 all of the evidence, including the circumstances of the
8 offense, the defendant's character and background, and
9 the personal moral culpability of the defendant, is there
10 a sufficient mitigating circumstance or circumstances to
11 warrant that a sentence of life imprisonment rather than
12 a death sentence be imposed?"
13 And just to summarize, it's a long

14 question. I didn't write it, it was written by the
15 legislature. I think it's kind of -- I would have

16 written it differently. I'm not sure how, but not like
17 that.
18 What it means is, after you have heard
19 everything else, if you decide in your heart that the

20 right thing to do, even though you found the defendant
21 guilty of capital murder, even though you believe that
22 she is a continuing threat to society, if you decide
23 because of whatever reason that she should be given a

24 life sentence instead of a death sentence, then you would
25 answer that "yes."
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1404

1 Could you do that?
2 A. Whatever comes out of here.
3 Q. All right. Your heart?
4 A. Yes, ma'am.
5 Q. You were pointing to your heart.
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. Okay. And that is really what we're
8 looking for, Mr. Samford.
9 A. Yes, ma'am.
10 Q. Let me ask you a little bit about
11 sufficient mitigating circumstance or circumstances. Is
12 there anything that comes to mind that is mitigating or
13 lessens somebody's moral blameworthiness? Anything you
14 can think of that would be mitigating to you?
15 A. What is mitigating?
16 Q. Well, it's somebody that -- let me

17 tell you how this question came about. There was a guy
18 who committed a capital murder, and he was a continuing
19 threat to society, but he was mentally retarded. Now, he
20 wasn't insane. Okay? He was just -- had a lower -- had
21 a very, very, very low IQ. He knew the difference
22 between right and wrong.
23 But the jury thought -- the judges
24 actually that reviewed it thought that maybe the jury
25 should have been given a chance to give him a life
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1405

1 sentence because of his intellect. It wasn't his fault
2 that he didn't have all the brain power that, you know,
3 most of us have. Okay?
4 That was a case where -- in that case

5 they decided that being mentally retarded was mitigating.
6 Does that bring anything to your mind?
7 A. Not really.
8 Q. Okay. Let me ask you: Some people

9 think that to have a college degree from, you know, one
10 of those schools out East, like Yale or Harvard or
11 something like that, some people think, well, if a man
12 like that did a crime, that that would be good, that he
13 was educated and that he had done something with his
14 life, and that might be mitigating.
15 Another person may think that if he
16 had that sort of education and he still did this bad

17 crime, that that is not mitigating at all, that is bad,
18 that is aggravating and they would use it against them.
19 Is there anything that you would feel
20 that would be mitigating?
21 A. You mean, you talk about this person
22 with a high education and another one that don't?
23 Q. Yeah.
24 A. Well, I guess even people with lots of
25 education has a lot of stress or something, and that is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1406

1 the only thing that I could think of that might cause
2 them to do something that someone without a lot of stress
3 might do, or would do. I don't know if that answers your
4 question or not.
5 Q. Okay. How would you feel if somebody
6 said that they were abused as a child when they were
7 younger? How would that affect you? Do you think that
8 would be something that would give somebody a life
9 sentence? Or would you just have to see?
10 A. I would have to wait and hear about it
11 or hear the testimony and stuff.
12 Q. How do you feel about that?
13 A. Well, for someone to get just a life
14 sentence instead of the death penalty for that what you
15 just said?
16 Q. Yes, sir.
17 A. It wouldn't bother me if they had just
18 like Down's syndrome or something like that and they did
19 something like that.
20 Q. Okay. In here I see that you -- your
21 first cousin is DEA. Right?
22 A. Well, I don't know if it is DEA, but
23 it's kind of like an alcoholic -- I mean, it's
24 Tobacco, Alcohol and Firearms.
25 Q. Oh, yes, ATF.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1407

1 A. ATF.
2 Q. Yeah, there is a lot of these -- all
3 these initials. That is that Alcohol, Tobacco and
4 Firearms?
5 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
6 affirmatively.)
7 Q. He is with that agency?
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. Does he work around here?
10 A. No, he works down in Robstown.
11 Q. Okay. If you are going to be a juror
12 on this case, and there is good chance that you will, Mr.
13 Samford. If you are going to be a juror on this case,
14 you have to -- and I have said this a couple times, but
15 you have to wait and hear the testimony and the evidence
16 in the courtroom, and you have to start all witnesses out
17 the same.
18 In other words, you can't say
19 automatically, "Well, I would give them more weight
20 because they are a police officer." Or, "I would give
21 them more weight because they are a preacher." You have
22 to wait to hear from them.
23 Could you do that?
24 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
25 affirmatively.)
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1408

1 Q. All right.
2 A. Yes, ma'am.

3 Q. It may be that after you hear from
4 them, because of their training and their experience --
5 sorry -- it may be that after you hear from them because
6 of their training and experience that you believe that

7 they are shooting straight with you, or you may hear them
8 and it doesn't sound right. Could you wait and hear from
9 them?
10 A. I would have to hear all of what they
11 say.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. Because it might be a Jim Bakker or
14 something like that mess.
15 Q. I hear you. Okay. You know, the
16 Judge has told you that the defendant is presumed
17 innocent, and what that means, it's really another way of
18 saying that we have the burden of proof. Because,
19 really, the penitentiary is filled with people that
20 started out presumed innocent, and then the State proved
21 their case, and now that is where they are. Okay? Could
22 you hold us -- or could you presume the defendant
23 innocent until we prove our case to you?
24 A. Yes, ma'am.
25 Q. Okay. We -- the defendant has an
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1409

1 absolute right not to testify and you can't use that
2 against her. Could you follow that rule of law?
3 A. Yes, ma'am.
4 Q. The Judge also told you last -- a
5 couple of weeks ago that you couldn't use the indictment
6 against her in any way, that that was just a piece of
7 paper that set out what we have to prove to you. Could
8 you follow that law?
9 A. Yes, ma'am.
10 Q. Additionally, the Judge will instruct
11 you that you cannot consider parole in this case. That
12 you just follow the evidence, answer the questions, and
13 don't worry about anything else. Could you do that?
14 A. Yes, ma'am.
15 Q. I see you have two kids, and what are
16 they about 26 and --
17 A. Twenty-nine.

18 Q. Twenty-nine.
19 A. And twenty-six.
20 Q. Okay. Is your daughter married?
21 A. Yes, ma'am.
22 Q. Okay. Does she have any children?
23 A. She has two.
24 Q. All right. What about your son, is he
25 married?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1410

1 A. Not yet.
2 Q. Okay. He is holding out, huh?
3 A. He is cohabitating right now.

4 Q. All right. Does he have any children?
5 A. Huh-uh. (Witness shaking head
6 negatively.)
7 Q. Okay. What does he do for the
8 Department of Transportation?
9 A. Road maintenance.
10 Q. Okay. I see you served in the Navy
11 for four years?
12 A. Yes, ma'am.
13 Q. When was that?
14 A. '62 to '66.
15 Q. Okay. And your wife was in Vietnam in
16 combat?
17 A. Who?
18 Q. Your spouse?
19 A. She wasn't, I was.
20 Q. Oh, you were.
21
22 THE COURT: No, ma'am.
23
24 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
25 Q. Oh, you were. Well, it's on the next
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1411

1 line, so it looked like that. So, you served in Vietnam?
2 A. Yes, ma'am.
3 Q. Okay. Tell me a little bit about that
4 experience.
5
6 THE COURT: Sir, if you don't want to
7 say anything about that, feel free not to.
8 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Well, it was a
9 time -- it was a time in my life that I wouldn't give you
10 a dime for it again, but I wouldn't take a million
11 dollars for the experience that it gave me.
12
13 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
14 Q. You wouldn't want to do it again, but
15 glad you had the opportunity to serve?
16 A. Yes, ma'am.
17 Q. Okay. Where do you work, Mr. Samford?
18 A. Kerrville State Hospital in
19 maintenance.
20 Q. Okay. How long have you been over
21 there?
22 A. Ten years.
23 Q. That is a long time.
24 A. I got tired of chasing cranes in big
25 cities.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1412

1 Q. You like it here?
2 A. Oh, yeah.

3 Q. This area?
4 A. I guess, I been here since '72.
5 Q. That is a long time.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you have any questions for me?
8 A. No, I don't guess.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. None that I can think of.
11 Q. All right. Fair enough. Thank you,
12 Mr. Samford.
13 A. You're welcome.
14
15 THE COURT: Mr. Douglass.
16 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Yes.
17
18 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
19
20 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
21 Q. Mr. Samford, my name is Preston
22 Douglass and I am just going to ask you a few questions.
23 I know you have been up there for a while and I hope you
24 understand that our perspective in representing Darlie

25 Routier is completely different and drastically different
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1413

1 than that of the State of Texas. You understand we look
2 at this a whole different way than they do.
3 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
4 affirmatively.) Yes, sir.
5 Q. Because of that, they start off
6 talking about punishment issues, they start talking about
7 the death penalty. And it isn't until the end that they
8 typically talk about the first phase of the trial.
9 Because our perspective is so different, I want to talk
10 to you a little bit, and you talked about it briefly, but
11 I want to talk to you about the trial, the
12 guilt/innocence phase of the trial.
13 Darlie Routier has plead not guilty.
14 She will enter a plea of not guilty before the jury, and
15 she will stand behind that plea of not guilty
16 wholeheartedly.
17 We don't expect to be talking about

18 punishment. We only expect that this is going to be a
19 trial about guilt or innocence. And in that regards I
20 want to talk to you a little bit more about the law
21 regarding the guilt/innocence part of the trial.
22 Starting with the indictment, you
23 heard -- you probably remember a couple of weeks ago

24 Judge Tolle telling you that in Dallas County some 25,000
25 people -- excuse me -- are indicted each year. And do
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1414

1 you remember him telling y'all that many of those people
2 who are indicted, many of those 25,000 people, never even
3 know that they are being investigated. Do you remember
4 that?
5 A. Somewhat.
6 Q. Yeah. He also -- the Judge also told
7 you that since those people obviously don't know they are
8 being investigated, they have not even had a chance or an
9 opportunity or being given even notice so they could go
10 down to the Courthouse and tell their side of the story.
11 So, can you understand that if 25,000 Grand Jury
12 indictments are issued, and many of those people don't
13 even know that they are being investigated, that an
14 indictment really is no proof of anything. Do you agree
15 with that?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. It's really just the piece of paper
18 that allows the defendant to know what he or she has to--
19 what the heck I have been charged with, and also tells

20 the Judge what to have a trial about. So -- but even
21 though it's just a piece of paper, there are some people
22 that think, well, you know, there's all these lawyers in
23 here, there is a judge, there's a court reporter, with

24 all of these people sitting in there, there's some people
25 that think, well, "Where there is smoke, there's fire."
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1415

1 And then there is another group of
2 people that say, "No, I don't believe a Grand Jury

3 indictment stands for anything." Where do you find
4 yourself? Do you believe you are over here "Where there
5 is smoke, there is fire?" Or do you believe you're a
6 person that believes that a Grand Jury indictment means
7 nothing?
8 A. Well, I think I am about right in the
9 middle of both of them.
10 Q. Okay. You understand that you haven't
11 heard any evidence in this case?

12 A. I have not.
13 Q. If the State stood up in the middle
14 right now, and said -- the Judge called the case for

15 trial and the defendant entered a plea of not guilty, and
16 the State stood up and said, "We rest our case." They
17 put on no evidence at all. What would be your verdict in
18 that situation?
19 A. If it was up to me, right then she
20 would go home.
21 Q. Okay. Not guilty?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Because they haven't proved anything,
24 is that right?
25 A. Right.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1416

1 Q. Now, when you say you are right in the
2 middle about the indictment, that causes me a little
3 concern, because since there has been no proof, and since
4 an indictment means nothing, would you agree with me that
5 you really should be a person that believes, if she has
6 been indicted, I am not going to put any weight on that
7 at all?
8 A. Well, is that what you meant a while
9 ago?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. That is not the way I took it.
12 Q. Okay. Where do you think you are? Do
13 you think that just because a person is indicted you
14 think they are guilty?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Now, the presumption of
17 innocence is something that is talked about a lot. Some
18 people talk about it like being a shield that surrounds
19 the defendant, and it is the State's obligation to
20 present evidence that eats away at that shield. Do you
21 agree with me that a defendant at the start of a trial is
22 absolutely innocent?
23 A. To me the person is innocent.
24 Q. Okay. Now, the law says that the
25 people that do the accusing, have to do the proving.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1417

1 What that means is that the State of Texas when they say,
2 "We're going to bring a citizen in for a trial. And we
3 are going to make this person stand trial."
4 That it is the State of Texas'
5 obligation to bring the evidence and prove beyond a

6 reasonable doubt that that person is guilty. Do you
7 agree with that? That it is their burden of proof?
8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Now, what is important about that is,
10 that there is absolutely no requirement on the defendant
11 to put on any evidence at all. A defendant in a trial
12 doesn't have to call one witness. A lawyer could sit
13 there and say, "You know, I heard everything that the
14 State had to say about this case. I saw every witness
15 they brought on. And I am not putting on any evidence,
16 because they didn't prove anything." Now, do you think
17 that is a law you agree with? That a defendant does not
18 have to prove his or her innocence.
19 A. I can agree with that.
20 Q. If you are a juror in a case and you
21 hear things about a defendant, but you have a doubt in
22 your mind. How do you resolve that doubt? Do you
23 resolve that doubt in favor of the defendant?
24 A. I would have to lean toward the
25 defendant and work it back the other way.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1418

1 Q. Now, you talk a lot about reasonable
2 doubt. And I have heard you say, "If the State proves it
3 beyond a reasonable doubt, and if they prove it beyond a
4 reasonable doubt." And that is a phrase that is
5 important to you; is that right?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. It used to be that there was not a
8 definition of reasonable doubt. There was a time when
9 they let people just decide what reasonable doubt meant
10 for themselves. Some people would say, "Well, I am a
11 reasonable person. If I have a doubt, it is a reasonable
12 doubt, then I am going to say not guilty."
13 Now, the legislature, the Court came
14 along -- the Court now has a definition of reasonable
15 doubt. And the definition basically says that it is
16 proof that is so convincing that you would not hesitate
17 to rely on that proof in making your most important
18 decisions.
19 Now, that is kind of a convoluted
20 definition. But what it means to you is you have got to
21 be proven to where you are sure beyond a reasonable
22 doubt. Does that sound correct to you? That it has to
23 be that much proof?
24 A. Well, if I followed you right, yes.
25 Q. One of my partners draws a circle, and
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1419

1 he says, "That if you look at this circle and imagine
2 this circle at the start of a trial, there has been no
3 proof. And that this blank in here amounts to a

4 presumption of innocence. And that it is the State that
5 has to come along and bring you evidence such that
6 eventually they block out this entire circle. They make
7 it completely black, so that there is no light coming
8 through." And then he says, "If there is just even one
9 little ray of light coming through that black of that
10 circle, and you believe that is a reasonable doubt, you
11 must vote not guilty."
12 Do you agree with that? That even if
13 the tiniest light comes through, that is a reasonable
14 doubt, that that benefit you give to the defendant, and
15 you say not guilty?
16 A. I would give that benefit to the
17 defendant.
18 Q. All right. Now, in the course of a
19 trial you will hear witnesses, and the Judge will tell
20 you that you, as a juror, are the sole judges of who you
21 want to believe. You can believe everything a witness

22 says, you can believe just a part of what a witness says,
23 or you can believe it all. And I anticipate that you
24 will hear from witnesses from all walks of life.
25 You will probably hear from police
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1420

1 officers. You will hear from everyday civilians. And I
2 want to ask you: If a police officer comes and
3 testifies, would you judge that police officer just like
4 everybody else? Or would you put any more weight on them
5 just because they are police officers?
6 A. No, I wouldn't. I would judge them
7 like everybody else.
8 Q. All right. The State talked about
9 motive for a period of time, and Ms. Wallace said
10 correctly, they don't have to prove motive. In an
11 indictment, there's things they have to prove. Like what
12 day it may have occurred on, on or about a certain day,
13 or that it occurred in Dallas County. If they say, we
14 are going to prove it occurred in Dallas County, they
15 have got to prove it happened in Dallas County.
16 But they don't have to prove motive as
17 a hurdle they have to jump over. But while they don't
18 have to prove it, could you agree with me, that if the
19 evidence just doesn't add up, if there is no proof as to
20 motive and because of that, as you, Mr. Samford, it just
21 doesn't make sense; could you agree with me that the lack
22 of a motive, the absence, the fact that they have not
23 proved a motive, might raise a reasonable doubt in your
24 mind?
25 A. It could.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1421

1 Q. Because it just doesn't -- you know
2 two and two just -- it leads to five, and you can't

3 figure it out. Could you understand that might be a
4 reasonable doubt?
5 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Your Honor, I
6 object to the fact that the juror has to figure the case
7 out, that is not the law.
8 THE COURT: Well, I understand what

9 you are saying. Let's phrase our question another way.
10 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Let me
11 rephrase that.
12
13 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
14 Q. You might hear a lot of evidence. You
15 might say, "They told me this, and they brought me
16 evidence of that, but it just doesn't make sense to me,
17 and they can't prove to me why this happened." Would you
18 agree that in some circumstances you might say, "Because
19 I don't understand the motive, and they haven't brought
20 me this proof, I have a doubt?"
21
22 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Your Honor, I
23 object to that. We don't have to prove motive. He
24 doesn't have know why.
25 THE COURT: I understand. Please be
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1422

1 seated.
2 I think -- do you understand the
3 question?
4 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I believe I
5 did.
6 THE COURT: I think that -- the State
7 doesn't have to prove motive.
8 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir. I
9 understand what he's talking about. Yes, sir, I could go
10 on and decide on behalf of the defendant.
11 THE COURT: All right. I think the
12 witness (sic) understands the question.
13
14 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
15 Q. Because it might raise a question in
16 your mind; is that right?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. All right. Now, a jury -- when you

19 get back in a jury box, a jury and each juror have their
20 own vote. It's not a democracy. You don't go in there
21 and decide, "Well, there's seven in favor of this, and
22 five in favor of that, so I'm going to go with the
23 seven." It doesn't work that way. You have your own
24 vote?
25 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1423

1 affirmatively.)
2 Q. And I was looking at your
3 questionnaire and I noticed that you said, "I follow my
4 own ideas rather than do what others expect."
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. I take that to mean that if you are
7 back in the jury room and you believe that in your heart
8 and mind that something is the way it is, that the
9 evidence makes you come to a conclusion, that you are
10 going to stick with that, even if other people disagree
11 with you; is that right?
12 A. Whatever I decide in my mind and my
13 heart, that is what I stay with.
14 Q. Now, if you find yourself back in a
15 room and maybe there's 11 people who disagree with you,
16 does that mean that you are going to stick with it?
17 A. If I think that I am right, yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. Now, another thing Ms. Wallace
19 said, and she was right in correcting me about it, was
20 that a juror is not here to solve the case. A juror is
21 just here to decide whether or not the State met its

22 burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, of proving the
23 person guilty that they accused, not here to be a mystery
24 solver.
25 Now, where that is important is, there
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1424

1 is no question that you are going to believe that a very
2 terrible crime took place. I know that is true. You are
3 going to believe that. But are you going to be able to

4 say, "Well, I know there was a crime, and I know it was
5 terrible." Are you going to be able to put that aside
6 and say, "But I need to make sure that the right person
7 is accused." And hold the State to the burden to prove
8 the person accused is the person that they say is the
9 person accused, is guilty or not guilty. Are you going
10 to make them prove that?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Or are you going to say, "Well, you
13 know, I am so mad about this because of what happened,
14 that I am going to find somebody guilty regardless of
15 whether they prove it."
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. I also think and know that you are
18 going to see some photographs, and I think the
19 photographs you are going to see are going to be gory,
20 and they are not going to look pretty. And I think,

21 also, you may expect that these photographs will be blown
22 up, made bigger, maybe just to look worse.
23 And some people will look at a
24 photograph like that and they get so mad that they just
25 want to punish somebody. In other words, that photograph
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1425

1 overruns their common sense.
2 Do you feel like there is a risk of
3 that with you? Or can you look at a photograph for just
4 what it is?
5 A. I have seen things that are pretty
6 gory, and I think I can look at a photograph and tell
7 just about what it is.
8 Q. Okay. It's not going to cause you to
9 not be able think straight?

10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. I noticed that -- I am just going to
12 touch on one thing very briefly -- I noticed in your
13 questionnaire you said -- there was a question asked of
14 you, you said, if a person was accused of capital murder,
15 that person should have to prove her innocence. And you
16 said, you strongly disagree with that.
17 A. Well, that is just what we all have
18 been talking about.
19 Q. All right. Does your wife work for
20 Johnny Hill?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Okay. How long has she worked out
23 there?
24 A. Eighteen years.
25 Q. Okay. Did she work for him when he
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1426

1 was JP?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Did she have some strong opinions
4 about when he was charged with DWI?
5 A. I don't want to get into Johnny Hill.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Ask me a question about this, and that
8 is a lot of gray area there.
9 Q. I would imagine that your wife is
10 pretty loyal to Judge Hill after all.
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Does she deal with the public out at
13 the insurance agency?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. One of the things that is really hard,
16 from where I sit, is that because the State has the
17 burden of proof they get to go first. And, we don't have
18 the right while they are putting on evidence to say,

19 "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. We want to call a
20 witness to prove something about what that witness that
21 they called just said." We have to go second.
22 Because we have got to go second it
23 makes me concerned that some people make their mind up
24 before they hear the whole case. Psychologists, if you
25 believe anything they say, say, "That what goes in first
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1427

1 sometimes sticks, and people can't get that out of their
2 mind." But a juror has to keep an open mind.
3 Do you think you can listen to all of
4 the evidence and not judge just based on what you hear
5 first?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. I think it's pretty easy to tell that
8 by the way they have been talking they are not going to
9 say a single thing -- they are not going to say a single
10 thing nice about my client, in the first part of trial.
11 I mean, you know that by the way they are talking.

12 So, can you anticipate that and expect
13 that and say, "I know that is what they going to do. I
14 am going keep an open mind until I hear the whole story."
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Okay. Now, you had put down that you
17 hadn't heard a single thing about the case. I am curious
18 if that means that you knew nothing about it when you
19 came down here?
20 A. I am not talking about -- not even a
21 word. I'm talking about I haven't read it in the paper
22 and I have not -- I can honestly say that when it comes
23 in the TV, I change the channel, and I don't read it in
24 the newspaper.
25 Q. Okay. All right. Because, obviously,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1428

1 you understand we have come a long way, these people have
2 all come from Dallas, to try to find people that know
3 nothing about the case. So, in that regard, you think
4 you are a pretty good person?
5 A. If that is what they are looking for.
6 Q. You are the man?
7 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
8 affirmatively.)
9 Q. Okay. How do you feel about being a
10 juror in a case like this? What is your -- how do you
11 feel about it?
12 A. The way I feel about it is this is the
13 reason that I was over there where I was, so we can have
14 these kind of days like this.
15 Q. If I understand what you are saying,
16 you risked your life so we can all be here doing this

17 kind of stuff?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Okay. Now, is it something that you
20 want to do or is it something you feel is a duty?
21 A. I don't think anybody wants to do it.
22 Q. Okay. Now, I am not going to have

23 another chance to talk to you before this trial starts.
24 And I know you heard me say that I am not interested in
25 talking about anything other than the presumption of
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1429

1 innocence and reasonable doubt and those very important
2 issues.
3 But I am not going to have a chance to
4 talk to you about the punishment, so I am required to
5 talk to you about punishment issues a little bit. And
6 let me direct your attention to these two questions: Ms.
7 Wallace asked you, I think, a little bit about
8 probability. Let me just ask you again: How do you

9 define probability? What does that word mean to you?
10 A. He probably would do it, but no proof
11 that he may do it.
12 Q. What this question is: Do you think
13 that there is a probability that the person would be a
14 future danger to commit other acts of violence? Do you
15 agree that they have got to prove that it's more likely
16 than not -- that it's probable that this person would
17 commit other acts of violence?
18 A. Ask me that question again.
19 Q. Let me ask you something else: Does
20 probable, probability, does that to you mean more than
21 it's just possible?
22 A. Anything is possible. Maybe they are

23 saying what is probability, not possibility, or something
24 like that.
25 Q. Well, would you agree with me that if
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1430

1 something is possible, anything is possible --
2 A. Right.
3 Q. -- but that probable means that it's
4 likely to happen? Probable means it is almost for sure
5 that someone is going to do something.
6
7 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: I will object to
8 the defense attorney's definition.
9 THE COURT: Yes, we're getting into
10 semantics here.
11
12 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
13 Q. How about more likely than not?

14 A. Well, I know what probably means,
15 so -- if that is what you are talking about.
16
17 THE COURT: I understand Mr. Samford's
18 thinking, I think he has answered the question.
19
20 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
21 Q. So you would agree that probably is
22 not just a chance, it is more than a chance?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, this question is you deciding as
25 a juror whether you believe beyond a reasonable doubt,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1431

1 that high level of proof, that someone probably would be
2 a future threat. Do you agree with me? Does that sound
3 right?
4 A. Probably.
5 Q. Okay. Do you agree that before you
6 can decide on this question that someone is probably
7 going to be dangerous, you have to decide that they are
8 probably going to be dangerous beyond a reasonable doubt.
9 So, you have got to decide, not only
10 is it -- it's not just possible, it's probable. And it's
11 probable that that person can be dangerous beyond a
12 reasonable doubt, and the State has to prove that to you.
13 Will you make them prove that to you?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. That if they get to that part of the
16 trial, you are going to make them prove to you beyond a
17 reasonable doubt that a person probably would be
18 dangerous?
19 A. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
20 Q. All right. Now, we talked about
21 mitigating, and lawyers throw that word around like
22 everybody in the world understands it. I am not so sure
23 everybody in the world understands mitigating. I don't
24 use that word, I don't walk around and say, "Well, that
25 mitigates this," or I don't use that word. Some people
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1432

1 say that mitigating means that a person is not as
2 responsible, or not as blameworthy. Does that make sense
3 to you, that it lessens their responsibility?
4 A. I don't never use that word in my line
5 of work, so I don't know.
6 Q. Okay. Let me give you an example:

7 Someone might say, "Look, this is a very young person,
8 and I am not going to give this person the death penalty
9 because they are so young." And because they are so

10 young, someone might say, that is a reason not to give
11 the death penalty, that that mitigates, should not give
12 the death penalty because the person is so young.
13 Or somebody might say, "You know, that
14 person has some sort of learning disability, and because
15 of that learning disability, I am not going to give that
16 person the death penalty."
17 Could you consider things like the
18 background of the defendant, their past history, and use
19 that background to decide whether or not that person
20 should get a death sentence? Can you do that?
21 A. I can't answer that yes or no.
22 Q. Until you hear the evidence?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Okay. But just daydream with me for a
25 little bit and think: Are you open to thinking about a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1433

1 defendant's past history?
2 A. It depends on what the history is.
3 Q. Okay. Do you agree that there are

4 some things in a person's life that sometimes mean they
5 start out behind the eight ball and it makes it harder
6 for them?
7 A. Not given an equal chance and raised
8 wrong?
9 Q. Yeah. Some people get a bad draw
10 every once in a while.
11 A. Oh, yeah.
12 Q. And because somebody -- some people

13 get a bad draw, could you consider that in deciding what
14 you think the right punishment is?
15 A. Yeah. Well, depends. You know,
16 people got to -- you got to play with the cards you are
17 dealt, and how you play them is how everything comes out.
18 Q. Okay. Do you feel like that in
19 considering the death penalty, that a person's background
20 has nothing to do with it? Or do you think it has
21 something to do with it?
22 A. The background in a death penalty
23 would have something to do with it, if they had something
24 in their background, if they had done something like they
25 were supposed to have done before.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1434

1 Q. Okay. Obviously this is a very
2 serious case. It is the most important moment in Darlie
3 Routier's life, no question about it. And what becomes
4 important is finding jurors, people that sit, from here
5 in Kerr County that don't lean one way or the other.
6 They start absolutely straight up on
7 this case. And I guess the question I want to ask you:
8 If you, God forbid, found yourself sitting where my

9 client sits, charged with a crime, would you be satisfied
10 with somebody like yourself being a juror?
11 A. I would hope there would be somebody
12 like me on the jury.
13 Q. Okay.
14
15 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: May I
16 have one minute, Your Honor?
17
18 (Whereupon, a short

19 discussion was held
20 Between the attorneys
21 For the defendant,

22 and the defendant
23 off the record, and outside
24 of the hearing of the
25 Juror, after which time,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1435

1 the proceedings were
2 resumed on the record,
3 as follows:)
4
5 THE COURT: Mr. Douglass.
6
7 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
8 Q. Do you have any questions of me, Mr.
9 Samford? I know I can be incredibly confusing. Is there
10 anything you want me to straighten out for you or any
11 questions you have?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. Okay. I appreciate your time coming
14 down here, doing all these questions and then answering
15 all of our questions.
16
17 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Judge, I
18 don't have any other questions.
19 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Samford,
20 could you step out briefly, please, don't leave.
21 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I will be
22 right out there.
23 THE COURT: There you go.
24
25 (Whereupon, the prospective
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1436

1 juror was excused from the
2 room, and the following

3 proceedings were held,
4 outside of his presence
5 as follows:)
6

7 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Wallace or
8 Mr. Shook?
9 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: The State will
10 accept the juror.
11 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: We
12 accept the juror.
13 THE COURT: All right. Can you have
14 Mr. Samford step in, please.
15
16 (Whereupon, the prospective
17 juror returned to the
18 room and the proceedings

19 were resumed as follows:)
20
21 THE COURT: Mr. Samford, come on in.
22 You have been accepted as a juror. So, what will happen
23 is this trial is going to start on the 6th of January.
24 So you will be -- Mr. Navarre or someone will be calling
25 you. It's going to be at the Courthouse downtown, the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1437

1 time to come in there and all this. Between now and then
2 don't talk about this case to anybody.
3 Obviously, you are not. I know you

4 will tell your wife you were selected, but I understand
5 how that works. But if the two of you could keep it
6 quiet beyond that, it would be most -- it would be

7 beneficial to all concerned, if you will do that.
8 THE JUROR: Yes, sir.
9 THE COURT: Don't talk about the case
10 among yourselves or anybody else, and I know you won't do
11 it. But I have to tell you this: I know it has to be
12 out there, but there is a gag order on and I can impose
13 monetary or jail sanctions. That won't apply to you, I'm
14 sure, but we have to tell you that.
15 We appreciate you coming and we will
16 see you back here on the 6th of January.
17 THE JUROR: Okay.
18 THE COURT: Thank you. All right.
19 When you have a person who has been in
20 combat, ask them, "Would you care to answer questions

21 about that?" Because you might -- a lot of them don't
22 want to, and I am not going to make anybody who doesn't
23 want to do it.
24 Okay. Secondly, I would appreciate
25 everybody referring to the other side as the attorneys
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1438

1 for the other side, not those guys. I think that is
2 extremely unprofessional.
3 Thank you.
4 We are going to take a brief break to
5 let Ms. Halsey and Ms. Biggerstaff have a short recess,
6 not to mention the Court itself.
7
8 (Whereupon, a short

9 Recess was taken,
10 After which time,

11 The proceedings were
12 Resumed on the record,
13 In the presence and

14 Hearing of the defendant,
15 as follows:)
16
17 THE COURT: Ms. Cooper, come on up,
18 please. This is number 35 on our list, 96 on the jurors
19 list, Betty Cooper.
20 Ms. Cooper, just have a seat there,
21 and speak into microphone.
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
23 THE COURT: And if you could raise
24 your right hand, please.
25 Do you solemnly swear or affirm you
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1439

1 will true answers make to all the questions propounded to
2 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
3 you God?
4 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
5
6 (Whereupon, the prospective

7 juror was duly sworn by the
8 Court to true answers make

9 to the questions propounded,
10 concerning qualifications, after
11 which time, the proceedings were
12 resumed as follows:)
13
14 THE COURT: All right. Now, ma'am,
15 you are Betty Cooper.
16 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.

17 THE COURT: And we want you -- I know
18 you are probably a little nervous, don't be nervous.
19 You are here on the Darlie Routier
20 matter. Mrs. Routier is the defendant, she is the young
21 lady sitting in the burgundy dress right there. She is
22 represented by Mr. Curtis Glover from Dallas, and Mr.

23 Preston Douglass who is from Kerrville.
24 And the State of Texas is represented
25 by Mr. Toby Shook and Ms. Sherri Wallace. They are
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1440

1 Assistant District Attorneys with the Dallas County
2 District Attorney's Office.
3 So, both sides will ask you some
4 questions. Just relax, no right or wrong answers. You
5 can be a member of the Flat Earth Society, and no one is
6 going to disagree with you. There is not going to be a
7 test on anything.
8 So who is going to go? Mr. Shook?
9 Okay. Thank you.
10
11 Whereupon,
12
13 BETTY LOUISE COOPER,
14
15 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of

16 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
18 true, testified in open court, as follows:
19
20 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
21
22 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
23 Q. Ms. Cooper, again, my name is Toby
24 Shook and I'm one of the prosecutors on the case and I

25 will be asking you questions on behalf of the State. And
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1441

1 we appreciate you filling out this questionnaire, it's
2 very helpful to us to review this.
3 I am going to go over a few things in
4 here, then I want to ask you some questions about the

5 death penalty as a law and how you feel about it, and
6 some of the other laws and rules that might apply to this
7 case. Okay?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Again, Ms. Cooper, there is no -- as
10 the Judge said, no right or wrong answers. We just want
11 your honest opinions. All right?
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. If you have any questions of anything
14 we go over, feel free to ask them. Okay?
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. First of all, Ms. Cooper, it's been a
17 couple of weeks since you filled out this questionnaire.
18 Has anything changed in any way? Anything you feel we
19 might need to know about that you feel you didn't provide
20 us with here?
21 A. Not that I know of.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. That I remember.
24 Q. All right. And it looks like that you
25 work for -- are you a commercial librarian for Lasmer
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1442

1 Industries?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. And what does that company do?
4 A. We manufacture -- the company

5 manufactures spare parts for tank and automotive for the
6 government.
7 Q. Okay. And you lived in Fort Worth for
8 28 years?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And then you all moved here?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. What brought you to this part
13 of the country?
14 A. We wanted to start a new business with
15 another person and we wanted to get out of a big city.
16 We wanted to raise our child in a small town.
17 Q. And, I guess you like it here now that
18 you have been here?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Okay. Ms. Cooper, let me talk to you
21 about the death penalty a little bit. Have you ever been
22 on a jury before?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Okay. Been called down for jury
25 service before?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1443

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Okay. Usually, in an -- well, in
3 every other type of criminal case we talk to each juror
4 in a big panel. Since this is a death penalty case, we
5 talk to each juror individually, because people feel

6 strongly and have their own opinions about the death
7 penalty. We're not trying to put you on trial or
8 anything like that. Okay?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Let me ask you: What do you think of
11 the death penalty as a law? Do you think it is a law we
12 need to have?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Okay. Tell me why?
15 A. In certain cases, the criminal -- just
16 nothing can be done with him, and there is no reason for
17 him to be allowed to live. He's done -- I am talking

18 about real serious cases, and I just don't think they
19 should be allowed back out on the street or that they
20 could ever serve any purpose for society.
21 Q. What kind of cases come to mind?
22 Obviously we are talking about a murder kind of case.

23 A. I'm talking about serial rapists or
24 some of these bombers that have deliberately set out to
25 kill judges or certain people.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1444

1 Q. I'm sure Judge Tolle will agree with
2 that one wholeheartedly. But like the Unabomber that has
3 been in the news last year?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. And then you said like serial rapists,
6 like, oh, what's his name? Ted Bundy?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Okay. Have you followed many cases in
9 the news that had to do with the death penalty or were

10 murder cases? Have you ever followed any of those types
11 of cases in the news?
12 A. Just to a certain extent, not on a
13 day-to-day basis or anything.
14 Q. What cases have you followed in the
15 news? Do you remember any of the names?
16 A. I don't remember the names. The
17 serial rapist or the rapist on that little girl that was
18 just sentenced not too long ago.

19 Q. In California?
20 A. Yes, uh-huh.

21 Q. Did you think that was a good verdict
22 in his particular case?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Let me ask Ms. Cooper: Did you follow
25 the Susan Smith case at all? The case involving a mother
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1445

1 in South Carolina and the death of her two children?
2 A. I saw it on TV. Our paper down here
3 doesn't get into much about that.
4 Q. So, you didn't follow that one real
5 closely?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. Any opinions on that case at all?
8 A. Did she get the death penalty?
9 Q. Actually, in that case she got life,
10 life in prison.
11 A. That is what I thought. I thought it
12 was a good verdict.
13 Q. Okay. Have you ever discussed your
14 views on the death penalty. You know, you say it's good
15 to have in cases like the Unabomber and serial rapists.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. What purpose do you think the death
18 penalty serves? Is it just to punish or punishment or
19 just to stop that particular person?
20 A. It's just to stop that particular

21 person, because if they escape from prison, they -- I
22 feel they would probably do it again and that would
23 injure society.

24 Q. Okay. Have you ever felt differently
25 about the death penalty?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1446

1 A. No, sir.
2 Q. Is it a subject that you have ever
3 given a whole lot of thought to or is it --
4 A. I have talked about it, I had not
5 thought as deeply about it until this case came up.

6 Q. Sure. Who have you talked about it
7 with?
8 A. My husband basically, and a few
9 friends.
10 Q. Okay. Does he share the same
11 viewpoints you have?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. What about your friends?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Okay. In Texas there's only certain
16 types of murder cases that fall under the death penalty
17 statute. Okay? It has to be a murder, but it has to be
18 something -- something else, plus something else, another
19 aggravating fact. Such as: A murder during a robbery.
20 A guy goes into a bank, robs the teller, kills the
21 teller, that would be a capital murder case.
22 A murder during a burglary; someone
23 comes in your home. A murder during a rape could be a
24 capital murder case. Okay? Mass murders, serial murders
25 like you have talked about can be also. Murder of a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1447

1 police officer while on duty could be a capital murder
2 case; that the death penalty could be invoked.
3 And as the Judge said, in this case,
4 obviously, the defendant has been indicted for the

5 offense of murder of a child under the age of six.
6 And I believe the indictment is in
7 front of you.
8
9 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Is that right,
10 Judge?
11 THE COURT: There is one there. They
12 are going to draw your attention to the printed -- the
13 typed section right there.
14 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
15
16 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
17 Q. If you could read that paragraph that
18 Judge Tolle just pointed out to you, please.
19 A. Read it?
20 Q. Yes, to yourself.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Okay. That sets out an allegation of
23 an intentional killing of a child under the age of six.
24 I can't ask you for your verdict, obviously, you haven't
25 heard the evidence. But that type of case, murder of a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1448

1 child under six, do you personally feel that is the type
2 of case that should be eligible for the death penalty?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. And why not?
5 A. I feel that if she is guilty and had
6 to serve a life sentence by the time she got out she
7 would not be able to have children anymore; therefore,
8 she would not be a threat to society.
9 Q. Okay. And is that on any type of case
10 involving the murder of children?
11 A. Well, if it was a rape and a murder,
12 no, that wouldn't be the same thing, but just a murder, I
13 don't -- I don't feel --
14 Q. Okay. But that particular type of
15 case, the murder of a child under the age of six, you
16 don't feel is a death penalty-type case?
17 A. No, sir.
18 Q. Life in prison --
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. -- is fine, but does not call for the
21 death penalty?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Fair enough. That is why we ask those
24 questions because some people say they believe in the
25 death penalty, but they would only do it for Adolf
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1449

1 Hitler.
2 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
3 affirmatively.)
4 Q. Other people believe in the death
5 penalty on any type of murder case. So everyone has
6 their own range, so to speak. All right?
7 A. Okay.

8 Q. And we just want your honest opinions.
9 Now, Ms. Cooper, you also put down in
10 your questionnaire -- we have several -- you said you are
11 in favor of the death penalty, and you put down some of
12 the same reasons you told me about today. But there
13 is -- well, we have six different statements that best
14 follow how you feel about the death penalty.
15 You have circled number four and I'm
16 going to read that to you: "I believe the death penalty
17 is appropriate in some capital murder cases, but I could
18 never return a verdict which would assess the death
19 penalty."
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Do you remember answering it that way?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q Do you still feel that way?
24 A. Well, when I phrase it like I did
25 before with the serial rapist, then, yes, I think I could
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1450

1 do that.
2 Q. If it was a case where the person was
3 charged with the murder that occurred during a rape; or
4 that they were, as you said, serial rapists and they
5 would rape again and again, that is the type of case you
6 could return it in?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. But other than that, you couldn't?
9 A. I don't think so.

10 Q. Okay. Ms. Cooper, let me tell you, we
11 can't preview the case for you. We can't give you, "Hey,
12 this is what I think we are going to prove." You know,
13 and their past, we're going to put this all on for you.
14 What kind of verdict can you give us? Obviously, we
15 can't do that.
16 So, we're dealing in hypotheticals
17 here, so it is a little difficult for us. But what we
18 can talk about is the exact indictment that the defendant
19 is charged with. And, also, if you think you can answer
20 these questions, or if you just can't.
21 Let me give you an example. Well, let
22 me lay all my cards out on the table, Ms. Cooper, because
23 you have been pretty honest with us so far. As you know,
24 we have indicted Mrs. Routier with capital murder, and
25 Judge Tolle has read that indictment and you have read it
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1451

1 again today.
2 The trial proceeds this way: There's
3 two parts. The first part, we have to prove that
4 indictment beyond a reasonable doubt. Okay?
5 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
6 affirmatively.)
7 Q. If we do that, the jury finds the

8 defendant guilty. Of course, if we don't meet that
9 burden, it's not guilty, then everyone goes home. Okay?
10 But if we do prove guilty, then we move to the punishment
11 stage.
12 At the punishment stage, you may get
13 more evidence on the defendant's background, you may hear
14 nothing on their background, they may not have anything.
15 It can go either way, good or bad. You understand that?
16 But at the end of that evidence, you get these special
17 issues. Special issue number 1, and I'll go over these
18 in more detail in a moment.
19 But special issue number 1: The State
20 has to prove that the defendant would be a continuing
21 danger to society. All right.
22 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
23 affirmatively.)
24 Q. Now, if we do that, the juror answers
25 "yes." Then you move to this last question. That last
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1452

1 question, and I want to summarize it; it is what we call
2 the mitigation question.
3 Basically, you look at all the
4 evidence and if you think a life sentence should be
5 imposed rather than a death sentence, you could answer
6 the question that way.
7 If you don't think there is evidence
8 that shows a life sentence should be imposed, that their
9 life should be spared, then you answer it "no." But if

10 you answer "yes" to that first question, and then "no" to
11 the second question, Judge Tolle won't have any choice,
12 he will sentence the defendant to death. All right?

13 If you answer it any other way, the
14 defendant will get a life sentence. Those are the only
15 two choices, the only two possible outcomes once the
16 defendant has been found guilty of capital murder, death
17 or life. Is that clear to you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You don't write death in or life in,
20 but the Judge sentences the defendant according to how
21 you answer those questions. Okay?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, if that happens in this case, a

24 "yes" and "no," the defendant would be sentenced by Judge
25 Tolle to death. She will be taken to Huntsville, Texas,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1453

1 and placed on death row. I don't know if you have read
2 anything about death row. Have you?
3 A. Just that there is a lot of appeals
4 and that it is lethal injection.
5 Q. Right. The method is lethal
6 injection. Used to be by electrocution, now it's lethal
7 injection. Sometimes the methods or the descriptions of
8 execution appear in the paper.
9 But, Ms. Cooper, let me tell you, we
10 believe we have the type and quality of evidence to prove
11 that case beyond a reasonable doubt, prove that
12 indictment. And to prove these questions should be

13 answered "yes" and "no." The defense, obviously,
14 disagrees and will be fighting us all the way, but that
15 is where we will be coming from.
16 In a death penalty case, if the Judge
17 did sentence the defendant to death, like I said, they
18 would be put in Huntsville, Texas, and they wait.
19 Now, someday, I can't tell you when,
20 Judge Tolle would actually give an execution date, a
21 death warrant.
22 On that date, the defendant would be
23 moved to another location, the Walls Unit in Huntsville,
24 Texas, where the execution takes place, where they all
25 take place.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1454

1 They might be given time with family
2 or friends, a minister perhaps, someone to talk to, and
3 to say their last goodbyes. But at 6:00 p.m., in fact,

4 shortly after 6:00 p.m. guards would come to her cell and
5 take her about 30 feet down a hallway into the execution
6 chamber.
7 They would place her on a gurney, that
8 you might see in the hospital, except this one is a
9 little different, there's leather straps on there. Her
10 legs, her arms, her chest, would be strapped down, where
11 she could not move. Technicians, doctors can't
12 participate in this proceeding, but technicians would
13 place needles in her arm, and on one side of the room are
14 witnesses that have to be there by law.
15 Now, after those needles are placed,
16 they go to another room, they lead to another room where
17 there are poisons. And after the defendant is given a

18 last chance to say her goodbyes, or her last statement,
19 poison would be injected into her veins. The process
20 takes 10 to 12 minutes usually. Her heart would stop.
21 You might read about her last words, could be anything.
22 But that is how the process happens,

23 and if that is how the case is proven in this case, that
24 eventually will happen. And I don't mean to get into the
25 description to be morbid, Ms. Cooper, but to let you know
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1455

1 that executions do take place in Texas. There have been
2 over 100 people executed in the State of Texas.
3 And let you know that if you
4 participate in this case and the State proved it and you
5 answered those questions, that is what the outcome would
6 be. Okay? Now, you told us that you feel that in some
7 cases, and you have told us what they are, the death
8 penalty could be the appropriate out. Everyone, like I
9 said, feels differently about it.
10 Some people are just opposed to the

11 death penalty on all grounds; religious, moral opposition
12 to it. And they could not participate, because they

13 couldn't be a fair juror in this type of case. Other
14 people are for it in every case, like I said. Some

15 people are for it in some cases and they say, "Well, you
16 know, I could sit here and listen to the evidence and
17 answer those questions in a way. It might be hard for
18 me, but if you prove it, I could do it." Even though I
19 know the defendant will be executed.
20 And other people tell us this, "Look,
21 I am for the death penalty in some situations, but I am
22 not the kind of person who can sit here and make these

23 decisions, and know the person will be executed. I can't
24 have that on my conscience."
25 One example I give of describing that
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1456

1 is, in Dallas there used to be a lot of skyscrapers going
2 up all the time, they don't have that many going up now,
3 but they used to. And I used to sit there and watch
4 those guys walk around, you know, at the very top on
5 those I-beams. I was glad they were building skyscrapers
6 because I thought that showed the city was growing. I

7 thought that was a good thing. But you couldn't have
8 drug me up there on top of them and helped them out in
9 any way. I am scared of heights. Okay?
10 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
11 affirmatively.)
12 Q. Some people feel the same way about
13 the death penalty. They think it is a law we need, but

14 in that particular type of case, they are not going to be
15 able to make those type of decisions.
16 Let me know how you feel, Ms. Cooper.
17 Do you think you could sit as a juror and make these
18 decisions, knowing the defendant would be executed
19 someday? Or is this just not your cup of tea?
20 A. I couldn't do it.
21 Q. Okay. And tell me why.
22 A. Well, I am having a hard time with
23 words on that.
24
25 THE COURT: Just go ahead, ma'am, just
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1457

1 relax.
2 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: He kind of
3 shook me up a little bit talking about it.
4 THE COURT: I understand what you are
5 saying, just relax and tell us how you feel.
6 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Well, I don't
7 think I could live with myself on -- I mean, I don't know
8 a great deal about the case and what little bit I know, I
9 don't think that I could live with myself if I had to
10 sentence her to death, and know that I had caused her to
11 die.
12 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Okay.
13
14 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
15 Q. Okay. Fair enough, Ms. Cooper. And
16 that is why we ask these questions. This isn't a test of
17 good citizenship, and this isn't a test to see if you
18 could be a juror in just any case, just this particular
19 type of case is what we are concerned about. Some people
20 can and some people can't, and that is why we just want
21 your honest opinions. And I believe you are being honest
22 with us now.
23 A. Yes, I am.
24 Q. Okay. Like I said, we can't preview
25 the case, but as best you know yourself, you couldn't
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1458

1 answer the questions in this way and just live with
2 yourself; is that right?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. Okay. You couldn't have that on your
5 conscience?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. It's not a questions of what type of
8 evidence we put on, or if we have proven it to you
9 intellectually, it's just a matter of your own conscience
10 and how you feel?
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. I guess you have no objections about
13 sending someone to prison, it's the death penalty that --
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. -- that would hurt you?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. And this is something you feel
18 strongly about, Ms. Cooper?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Something you are not going to
21 change your mind about.
22 A. No, I'm not going change my mind.
23 Q. All right. Well, you are being very
24 clear to me, but the law requires me to ask you just a
25 few more questions. So if you will bear with me. Okay?
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1459

1 A. Okay.
2 Q. I'm not trying to argue with you. Let
3 me kind of go through this step-by-step. First of all,
4 as far as proving a person guilty, you know, the first
5 part of the trial where they committed that crime or not.
6 Would you be able to do that in a
7 capital murder case, or would your conscience bother you
8 even there? In other words, if we prove this thing to

9 you beyond a reasonable doubt with the evidence, could
10 you find her guilty of capital murder? Or would your
11 conscience prevent you from even making that initial
12 decision?

13 A. I could find her guilty as long as I
14 knew the death penalty was not involved.
15 Q. Okay. So you could make that --
16
17 THE COURT: Was what ma'am? The death
18 penalty was what?
19 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Was not
20 involved.
21 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am.
22
23 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
24 Q. So you could make that initial
25 decision?
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1460

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. It's in this punishment issue is where
3 you are going to have the problem?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay. Now, I went over these so I
6 want to go in detail a little more, and then ask you some
7 more questions. Okay?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Do you understand, as I told you

10 before, the Judge sentences the defendant depending on
11 how these questions are answered. Do you understand
12 that?
13 A. Yes, sir.

14 Q. Okay. Let me read this first question
15 to you: "Do you find from the evidence beyond a
16 reasonable doubt that there is a probability that the

17 defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that
18 would constitute a continuing threat to society?"
19 Do you see that question is asking
20 you, the jurors, to make a prediction about how the
21 defendant would behave in the future?
22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you could use the evidence of the
24 crime itself plus anything else you know about it. Let
25 me ask you, Ms. Cooper, that is asking you to make a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1461

1 prediction and the State has to prove that. If we get
2 you to answer "yes," we go on, you know, that is on the
3 way to the death penalty. "No" answer, obviously, then

4 there is no death penalty. "Yes" answer, we're still on
5 our way. Do you understand that?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Okay. But we have got to prove a
8 "yes" answer. Are you telling me that because of your
9 conscientious scruples against the death penalty, in

10 imposing a death penalty sentence, would you be able to
11 answer that question "yes"? Or would you just have to
12 say, "No, I couldn't answer question number 1 that way.
13 I just couldn't do it."
14 A. If it was going to be for the death
15 penalty, no, I could not.
16
17 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Your
18 Honor, I'm going to object to that. The way he phrased
19 that is, would she even be able to answer the question.
20 I think the way it should be phrased is, "Would she

21 listen to the evidence and be able to arrive at a
22 verdict?" Not would she just not even write in --

23 THE COURT: Well, I'll let you ask
24 that question. Go ahead.
25 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Thank
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1462

1 you.
2 THE COURT: I wouldn't want to deprive
3 you of your time with her.
4 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Thank
5 you.
6
7 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
8 Q. Do you understand that is where we are
9 heading when we are talking about these questions?
10 A. You are heading toward the death
11 penalty, okay.
12 Q. We have to prove that first one "yes"
13 to get to it.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. And defense counsel brings up a good
16 point, because this is a major issue here. There's
17 people that you can say, intellectually, you know, you
18 could put on evidence and I know that that could be
19 answered "yes."
20
21 THE COURT: Ms. Cooper, to interrupt,
22 this is Mr. Richard Mosty of Kerrville who is also a
23 defense attorney.
24 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Hello.
25 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: How are you?
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1463

1 THE COURT: Who is also representing
2 Mrs. Routier. Excuse me, go ahead, Mr. Shook.
3 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Thank you, Judge.
4
5 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
6 Q. You know you could sit there and say,
7 "Look, I know what you are doing. You know, you can
8 prove to me this person is the meanest killer that has

9 walked the earth. Sure. I know that. You have proven
10 that to me with the evidence intellectually. But I,
11 personally, can't make that decision. So even though I
12 know it is a "yes" answer in my mind, my -- I am going to
13 be prevented from doing that. My conscience will prevent
14 me from answering this. I am going to answer it 'no.'"
15 You understand what I am saying?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. There is a difference between being
18 proven by the evidence -- some people can go, "Look, if
19 you prove it, then I will answer it 'yes.'" Okay?
20 Other people tell me, "You can prove
21 it to me all day long, but my conscience is going to
22 interfere, I know myself that well." Do you understand
23 what I am saying?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Okay. Is that how you feel?
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1464

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. So, what you are telling me is it's
3 not a question of the evidence, it's that your conscience
4 is still going to kick in in this punishment phase?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And even though in your mind you know
7 that it has been proven to you beyond a reasonable doubt,
8 they are going to be a danger, they are a violent person,
9 you wouldn't be able to answer "yes" because you know a
10 "yes" answer is halfway there to the death penalty?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Like I said, you
13 have been very open with me, and I appreciate it. I have
14 to keep asking you some more questions. Okay?
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. All right. Now, this last question,
17 you don't get to that question unless you found the

18 defendant guilty, and you answer that first question
19 "yes," and then you are almost to the death penalty.

20 Now, a "no" answer will equal a death
21 sentence. A "yes" answer to this last question will
22 equal a life sentence. And it is kind of lengthy, so let
23 me just read through it once. Okay?
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. "Taking into considering all of the
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1465

1 evidence, including the circumstances of the offense, the
2 defendant's character and background, and the personal,
3 moral culpability of the defendant, is there a sufficient
4 mitigating circumstance or circumstances to warrant that
5 a sentence of life imprisonment rather than a death
6 sentence be imposed?"
7 Like I said, that question gets kind
8 of lengthy, and you won't be given any definitions of
9 what that question is. But what the question is asking,
10 I think, is this: If you look at all of the evidence,
11 and if you see something in the evidence where you can
12 give a life sentence or you think a life sentence should
13 be imposed rather than a death sentence, you will answer
14 it that way. But it is a question that is supposed to be
15 based on the evidence. Do you understand what I am
16 saying?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. Some people tell us, "Look, I
19 don't want to ever sentence anyone to death. You know, I
20 just couldn't do it. Even though I know that they are
21 guilty of this crime. I know that they are going to be a
22 continuing danger to society, I still couldn't do it."
23 Okay? "And even if there is, you know, I'm not going to
24 need any mitigating evidence. I am going to answer that
25 last question 'yes,' to give them a life sentence."
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
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1 Okay? Because if it is answered "yes," they get a life
2 sentence. That is a way out for the jurors.
3 Now, under the law you are supposed to
4 do it according to the evidence. If there is not
5 mitigating evidence, you have got to answer it "no."
6 But, you know what happens if that occurs? If there is a
7 "no" answer to that second question, it is a death
8 sentence from Judge Tolle. Do you understand that?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Some people tell us, "That because of
11 my conscience, because I have to live with myself,
12 because I couldn't personally answer questions that would
13 result in someone's death, I am always going to answer

14 that second question with a 'yes' answer. I am always
15 going to answer that question in a way that would give
16 that person a life sentence, rather than a death
17 sentence. I don't care what the evidence is, that is my
18 way out, and I am going to take it." Is that how you
19 feel?
20 A. In this case, yes.
21 Q. Okay. You don't have any qualms

22 answering the question in a way to give them a life
23 sentence, but you are not going to answer it in a way
24 that would give them a death sentence?
25 A. That's correct.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1467

1 Q. Do you understand that -- are you
2 telling me that even if -- and what you are supposed to
3 do is look at the case, and if there is mitigating
4 evidence, you would answer it "yes," but if there is no
5 mitigating evidence, you would answer it "no." But you
6 couldn't do that, could you?

7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Because a "no" answer to that would
9 equal a death sentence?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. So, are you telling the Judge that --
12 and we have to deal with hypotheticals, Ms. Cooper: If
13 you were placed, let's say, on a capital murder jury,

14 because of the way you feel about the death penalty, this
15 second question wouldn't be a matter of the evidence,

16 that you are always going to answer it "yes," so the
17 person would get life, rather than a death sentence?
18 A. Other than the cases I talked about
19 earlier.

20 Q. Okay. Unless it was a serial rapist?
21 A. Or something, yes, something like
22 that.
23 Q. But this type of case, the indictment
24 you have read, the murder of a child under the age of
25 six, you wouldn't be able to answer the question "yes" on
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1468

1 that?
2 A. I could not --
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. -- give her the death sentence, no.
5 Q. Only in questions of serial rapist
6 murderer, and like the guy in California, and the
7 Unabomber type.
8 A. Right.
9 Q. The one that plans out and kills a
10 whole lot of people with bombs, those kind?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. But the indictment of a murder of a
13 child under the age of six, you couldn't do it in that
14 type of case?
15 A. No, sir.

16 Q. Okay. And does this also go back to,
17 ma'am, in your questionnaire we have a question that

18 says: Do you have any moral, religious or personal
19 beliefs that would prevent you from returning a verdict
20 which would result in the execution of a woman? And you
21 wrote "yes."
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. Is that, along the same lines
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1469

1 here, you just could not return a verdict that would
2 result in the execution of a woman?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Okay. Tell us a little bit about
5 that. Is it just a woman on trial, you just couldn't do
6 it in the case of a woman?
7 A. I think that is more it, and I don't
8 know a lot about women on trials for murder.
9 Q. Right.
10 A. You generally associate it more with
11 men.
12 Q. Sure. The first thing that comes to
13 mind usually is a man when we talk about murder and
14 capital murder.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Because that is what we see on the
17 news.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Obviously, though, the law doesn't say
20 man or woman, but some people do come and tell us, they
21 say, "Look, if it was a man on trial, I wouldn't have a
22 problem, but I just -- I couldn't do it if the case were
23 a woman." Is that how you feel?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Okay. Fair enough. So kind of a
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1470

1 recap.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Okay. And I am almost done, Ms.
4 Cooper.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. But because of the type of a case this
7 is, murder of a child under the age of six, you are
8 telling us that your conscience wouldn't allow you to
9 answer these questions in a way, that is the "yes" and a
10 "no," in a way that would result in the person's
11 execution?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Okay. As far as question number 1

14 goes, it wouldn't be a question of us proving that to
15 you, I mean, we could prove that to you in your mind
16 probably?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. But you couldn't bring yourself to

19 answer "yes," because you know that would be on the way
20 to the death penalty?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Okay. And you are not going to forget
23 about how your conscience feels; is that right?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. And as far as the second question, no
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1471

1 matter what the evidence there is, you are always going
2 to answer the question "yes," so that you can avoid the
3 death penalty?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And that is no matter what the
6 evidence is, if there is mitigating evidence or not, you

7 are going to answer it that way because that is what your
8 conscience is going to tell you to do?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And the fact that the defendant in

11 this case is a woman, that is not going to allow you to
12 answer the questions in a way that would result in the
13 death penalty either, is it?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. Okay. Ms. Cooper, is there anything
16 else that you think might be important?
17 A. Not that I'm aware of, sir.
18 Q. Okay. The bottom line is, ma'am, in
19 this type of case, this type of defendant, you are not

20 going to be able to forget about your conscience and your
21 objections to it, to giving someone the death penalty in
22 that type of case, are you?
23 A. I'm not going to change my mind, no,
24 sir.
25 Q. Okay. I appreciate your honesty with
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1472

1 me, Ms. Cooper.
2
3 THE COURT: Is that it?
4 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: That's all we
5 have, Judge.
6 THE COURT: Mr. Douglass?
7 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Yes,
8 Your Honor, thank you.
9
10 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
13 Q. Ms. Cooper, my name is Preston
14 Douglass. And I, together with Curtis Glover and Richard
15 Mosty represent Darlie Routier as the Judge told you
16 earlier.
17 When the State's attorneys get into
18 this, what they expect out of the case, obviously, they
19 have a perspective which is dramatically different than
20 my perspective sitting here. And as they correctly told
21 you, trials are in two possible phases in our State. The
22 first phase of a criminal trial is the guilt/innocence.
23 And the second phase, if there needs to be one, is the
24 punishment phase.
25 Now, I can tell you that we expect
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1473

1 that there will not be a punishment phase in this trial.
2 Darlie Routier has entered a plea of not guilty, and she
3 will plead not guilty before this jury, and she will

4 wholeheartedly stand behind that plea of not guilty.
5 We get a little bit backwards in our
6 approach because the attorneys representing the State get
7 to go first, and their objective is punishment. So they
8 talk to you about punishment first. And that is the area
9 that, obviously, Mr. Shook has concentrated on because
10 it's what is more interesting to him in this case, the
11 punishment phase.
12
13 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Judge, I will
14 object to that.
15 THE COURT: I'll sustain the
16 objection.
17 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: The whole case is
18 interesting to me.
19 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: His goal
20 relates to punishment.
21 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Well, my goal
22 first is to get the defendant guilty.
23 THE COURT: We understand.
24 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: I will object to
25 that.
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1474

1 THE COURT: All the objections are
2 sustained, let's phrase our questions right. Both sides
3 are interested in seeing that justice is done. Thank
4 you.
5
6 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
7 Q. So, typically, what happens is a great
8 deal of emphasis is placed on the State on those
9 questions and on the death penalty. And since there has
10 been some concern you have raised, I am going to go to
11 that portion of the trial first. Even though, that is
12 not where my interest is, but I want to talk about that
13 first, the punishment phase.
14 The law doesn't require that jurors,
15 when they come and sit where you are sitting and
16 answering all of these questions, have to deposit their
17 common sense in a wastebasket when you come in the door.
18 And the term, "a jury of your peers" most certainly means
19 that that includes people of all backgrounds, all walks
20 of life, all feelings, all life experiences.
21 And the question, the operative
22 question is: Whether or not a juror can take what is
23 called a written charge, the Judge will prepare a long
24 document, that gives you as a juror every law that could
25 possibly apply to this case; and then, a juror who
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1475

1 listens to the facts, takes what he or she has heard
2 about the facts and applies that to the law that the
3 Judge gives.
4 And then in that framework, that

5 narrow framework of following the law, the juror makes
6 certain determinations about what they heard from the
7 facts. In a guilt/innocence stage of the trial,
8 obviously, the first determination is: Has the State

9 proven its case beyond a reasonable doubt? If so, guilty
10 or not guilty.
11 You take the facts you have heard and
12 you apply the law the Court gives you, and you arrive at
13 a decision. That is what you take an oath to do. And if
14 you should decide that a defendant who is charged is

15 guilty, then and only then, do you move to this second
16 phase of the trial.
17 And then if you go through the same
18 process again, the State may or may not bring you

19 evidence, but they may bring you evidence that is
20 different, they may add to the evidence that they brought
21 at the first part of the trial.
22 The defense might bring you evidence.
23 You take all of that evidence in your fact finding, and
24 then the Judge, again, will give you another written
25 piece of paper that says, "This is the law".
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1476

1 And, again, you apply those facts and
2 you will be given questions. And the questions, in this
3 particular case, would be written very much the same as
4 what you see on that board. And a juror would evaluate
5 the facts, and based on the facts that the juror, in his
6 or her own opinion, solely his or her own opinion,
7 believes answer the questions that the Court gives you,
8 in following your oath.
9 Now, you may have heard from things
10 like on TV, like the O.J. Simpson trial and things, that
11 there are people who pretend or make money thinking they
12 are jury consultants. And they might tell you, "Well,
13 you don't want to pick people who wear blue shoes. Or
14 you don't want to do this or that."
15 And quite frankly, I think that that

16 is just some high-priced guesswork. And what we rely on,
17 in the final analysis, is what people think about their
18 experiences. Those experiences are your experience and
19 no one else's experiences.
20 What becomes important is not that we
21 get people that are all the same to sit on a jury. Not
22 that we get people that all think alike, but only that we
23 get people that are fair, and people that are impartial,
24 and people that are willing to listen to all the
25 evidence. You might get people who have drastically
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1477

1 different opinions about all kinds of issues.
2 But, you might agree with me, that
3 it's the difference of opinion that makes a jury a good
4 system; people from all walks of life, and all
5 backgrounds.
6 So, when we talk about the death
7 penalty, it is not necessarily so that every person has
8 to be the same about their feelings about the death
9 penalty. And I don't think anyone would disagree with
10 the statement that I am going make, that people who are
11 eager to serve just want to be on a jury so bad it just
12 kills them and they come up here and they audition for
13 it, those really are not the kind of people that you are
14 looking for in a very serious case. You want people who
15 think seriously; people who consider things seriously.
16 Now, I took from your questionnaire,

17 before you walked in, and I read them last night at home,
18 that you believe and favor the imposition of the death
19 penalty in certain circumstances. Am I right about that?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Okay. As we sit here today, you have
22 not heard circumstance one about this case. You do know
23 that there is an indictment, and you do know that that
24 indictment has certain allegations. You might recall
25 that Judge Tolle told the big sea of people, in the very
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1478

1 beginning, that in Dallas County 25,000 people a year get
2 an indictment. And that many, many of those people may
3 not even know that they are being considered for an
4 indictment, so they didn't get to tell their side of the
5 story. And Judge Tolle told you because of that, you can
6 consider that indictment as no evidence of proof of
7 anything. Do you agree with that?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Because of that -- because the only
10 thing you have heard is an indictment, and we have to
11 talk in hypothetical situations, you really know nothing
12 about this case.
13 A. I do know something about it.
14 Q. You know what the allegations are?
15 A. I know what was in the newspaper.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. In Fort Worth.
18 Q. But would you agree with me, that that
19 is not evidence? That is just what people have claimed
20 about something.
21 A. Well, sometimes the media does get
22 things correct, not all the time, but sometimes.
23 Q. Well, let me give you an example: All
24 of us know about this poor fellow Richard Jewell, out in
25 Georgia.
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1479

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. He was hounded, followed by media
3 people, chased down the street like a criminal.
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. And now we have found out he has been
6 cleared.
7 A. Well, that is because of the FBI.
8 Q. Okay. But also, the people in the
9 newsprint said, "Well, the FBI says he is guilty," and
10 put an incredible amount of scrutiny on him.
11 And now, what we have read in the
12 paper has not panned out to be true. And that is why we

13 don't try lawsuits in the newspaper. That is why, as the
14 Judge said, there is a gag order in this case. There has
15 been steps taken by our Judge to see that this case is
16 not tried in the newspaper because of the abuses that
17 occur. The only place this case is going to be tried is
18 with witnesses sitting in that chair that you are sitting
19 in right now.
20
21 THE COURT: The courthouse downtown,
22 of course.
23 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Yes,
24 sir, yes, sir.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1480

1 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
2 Q. We're not going to try the case here,
3 we're going to try it in the courthouse, but there will
4 be a chair in court like what you are sitting in.
5 So, what it comes down to is, is you
6 would agree with me, wouldn't you, that terms of facts,
7 under oath, hard evidence, that you haven't heard
8 anything about this case?
9 A. Not under oath, no, sir.
10 Q. Okay. And the question really comes
11 down to, yes, it's a serious case, but can you listen to
12 evidence as a juror, evaluate that evidence, and make

13 decisions, applying the law, based only on that evidence?
14 Could you do that as a juror? Say, "Well, that is what
15 the evidence showed me. And if the evidence showed me
16 that that person is going to be a future danger, I can
17 say that. I can say the person is a future danger." Can
18 you do that?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Let me take that a step further. If
21 we were to get to the phase of the trial where you are
22 trying to make a determination of whether a person is a
23 future danger to society, one thing you said, Ms. Cooper,
24 is, "Well, if a lady goes to prison for a life sentence
25 and she gets out, she is going to be at an age where she
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1481

1 won't have kids anymore and she can't commit that crime."
2 The law does not say, "Do you think

3 she is going to do the same thing again?" It doesn't
4 say, "Do you think there is a probability she will do

5 this same crime again?" The question is: Do you believe
6 that the defendant would commit criminal acts of
7 violence? That could be against anyone. And, you know,
8 you said "Well, I could give to someone who is a bomber,
9 or I could give it to a serial rapist."
10 We don't know what the State is going
11 to say about a defendant until we get there. They may
12 bring you facts that just curl your hair about a
13 defendant. And when you sit here right now, we don't
14 know what they are going to bring.
15 So, the question is: Could Ms. Cooper
16 listen to evidence of all different kinds, and say, based
17 on that evidence, "I believe the person is a future
18 danger." Could you keep your mind open, listen to the
19 evidence and make your own mind up about that?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Let me take it one other way. If you
22 take an oath as a juror, and you say, "I will listen to
23 the evidence and I will make a decision." You wouldn't
24 change your answer if you believe the evidence told you
25 something, and you believed the evidence meant to you a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1482

1 certain answer, you wouldn't change your answer and lie
2 to yourself to get a different result. Would you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Okay. So I take that to mean that
5 what you would do is, if they proved A, B, and C to me,
6 and that means that the answer in my mind is "yes," then
7 you on your oath, would be willing to write "yes" if you
8 felt in your heart that is the truth?
9 A. I would not write "yes" because that
10 leads to the death penalty, and I will not do it.
11 Q. Does that mean then that even if you
12 believe that the evidence proved that a person was a
13 future danger, if you in your heart of hearts believed,
14 well, the person is going to be dangerous as heck, that

15 you would then say, "But, I am going to put 'no,' because
16 I know if I say 'yes' it means the death penalty. I am
17 going to say 'no' just because I am going to change my

18 answer." Would you do that?
19 A. I have stated this case that --
20 because of the death penalty and a woman and what little
21 bit of circumstances I know, I could not send her to the
22 death penalty. I could not do it, under any
23 circumstances.
24 Q. Such that, even if you believe the

25 evidence proved one way, you would change your question
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1483

1 or --
2
3 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: We would object to
4 that.
5 THE COURT: Well, I know, yeah, I
6 think this will solidify it, but go ahead with the
7 question.
8
9 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
10 Q. But such that if you believed the
11 evidence meant that the person would be a future danger,
12 nevertheless, you would disregard what you believed, and
13 say, "I am not going to answer what I believe the
14 evidence showed. I am going to answer contrary to that,
15 and 'no' just because I am going to ensure a life
16 sentence takes place." Is that what you are saying?
17 A. I would assure that she would get a
18 life sentence, but not the death penalty.
19
20 THE COURT: That is fine. That is it.
21 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Judge, we would
22 move for cause.
23 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. Just
24 a minute, just a minute. Is that the end of the
25 questioning?
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1484

1 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Well,
2 Judge, when we had talked about how we were going to
3 handle certain issues, there was some discussion, and we
4 would deal with just that direct issue and then go back
5 to it should it determine -- to determine that that
6 person is not --
7 THE COURT: Well, that is fine. You
8 still have time, go ahead. I understand where we are.

9 Go ahead, you have plenty of time.
10 In other words, I am going to give you
11 an oath to follow the law.
12 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
13 THE COURT: Okay. And I am going to
14 ask you, I would ask you now: Could you set aside your
15 bias, against no death penalty? You have got to get a
16 death penalty to follow the law. If I gave you an oath,
17 knowing that by following it that you found that that
18 first question should be answered "yes," you would still
19 say, "Forget the oath, forget the law. If I answer 'yes'
20 and then I answer 'no,' she is getting death. No way am
21 I going to do that. No-how, no way"?
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: That's
23 correct.
24 THE COURT: That's it?
25 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: That's it.
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1485

1 THE COURT: Okay. I think we have
2 dealt with that issue. I believe we have that one pretty
3 well nailed down.
4 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Your
5 Honor, I think in that regard that I would pass the
6 witness.
7 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
8 Anything else Mr. Shook?
9 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Your Honor, we
10 move for the juror to be struck for cause, under
11 35.16(b)(1).
12 THE COURT: All right. Motion
13 granted.
14 We want to thank you very much for
15 your time and your attendance, and we appreciate your
16 candid answers, but you will be excused from further jury
17 service. We would ask that you not discuss anything with
18 anybody about what went on in here today until this trial
19 is over.
20 There is a gag order in the case and
21 if you violate it, I can impose monetary or jail time
22 sanctions. I'm not threatening you, I am just telling
23 you what I have to tell you.
24 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I know.
25 THE COURT: I know you will probably
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1486

1 tell it to your husband, but if the two of you could not
2 say anything else until after this trial is over which
3 should be at the end of January, first part of February,
4 we would be most appreciative. Thank you very much for
5 coming.
6 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir, all
7 right. Thank you.
8 THE COURT: All right. Anybody,

9 nobody else? That is it until after lunch? Right?
10 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Your Honor, I
11 do have one thing I need to put on the record, Your
12 Honor.
13 THE COURT: All right. Silence,
14 please.
15 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: This came to my
16 attention, my legal assistant brought this to my
17 attention.
18 Salvador Monroy, is juror number 2.
19 THE COURT: Yes.
20 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And I can't

21 remember exactly what he was asked about knowing me or
22 not knowing me. But -- and I had no recollection of it,
23 but my legal assistant told me that I had met with Mr.
24 Monroy in 1988, and that I had opened a file on him on a
25 divorce case. And they found the file, and as a matter
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1487

1 of fact, there is my handwriting on a little interview
2 with him at 42 Cedar Drive West, which is where the guy
3 is, and I didn't believe it, but Sam corrected me.

4 And I did file for a divorce in 1988,
5 and I have no record. The last thing I have in the file
6 is I wrote him a letter saying that we sent his wife a
7 waiver of citation, but she never responded. I think the
8 case got dismissed for want of prosecution.

9 THE COURT: Probably did.
10 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: And my staff
11 seems to think that that wife died.
12 THE COURT: No doubt of natural
13 causes.
14 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Well, at least
15 I wasn't involved. At least I don't think, unless it's
16 through divorce. I did not remember it. Obviously, Mr.
17 Monroy didn't remember it, but I thought I better bring
18 it to the Court's attention.
19 THE COURT: Thank you. All right.

20 You have brought it to the Court's attention. I assume
21 that the defense would have accepted that last juror if
22 she had been qualified.
23 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Oh, yes,
24 we would.
25 THE COURT: Well, all right, we'll see
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1488

1 everybody --
2 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: She and
3 Jimmie would be big pals.
4 THE COURT: Yes, she and Jimmie had a
5 thing going there. All right. See everybody at 1:30,
6 excuse me, 1:00.
7
8 (Whereupon, a short

9 Recess was taken,
10 After which time,

11 The proceedings were
12 Resumed on the record,
13 In the presence and

14 Hearing of the defendant,
15 As follows:)
16
17 THE COURT: This is after the lunch
18 recess. All right. Let's bring the juror in.
19 Mr. Arlie Lammers.
20 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
21 THE COURT: All right. Have a seat
22 right up here please, sir.
23 If you will raise your right hand,
24 please, sir.
25
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1489

1 (Whereupon, the prospective
2 juror was duly sworn by the
3 Court to true answers make

4 to the questions propounded,
5 concerning qualifications, after
6 which time, the proceedings were
7 resumed as follows:)
8
9 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.

10 THE COURT: A-R-L-I-E, L-A-M-M-E-R-S,
11 is that correct?
12 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir,
13 that's correct.
14 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
15 You are here today as a potential juror in the Darlie
16 Routier case. Mrs. Routier is the young lady sitting in
17 the burgundy dress to your right, she is the defendant.
18 She is represented by Mr. Curtis

19 Glover and Mr. Preston Douglass. Mr. Glover is from
20 Dallas, and Mr. Douglass is from Kerrville.
21 The State is being represented by Ms.
22 Sherri Wallace and Mr. Toby Shook.
23 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Good afternoon.
24 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Hello.
25 THE COURT: Are you ready to go first,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1490

1 Mr. Shook?
2 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Ms. Wallace will,
3 Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
5
6 Whereupon,
7
8 ARLIE GALE LAMMERS,
9
10 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of

11 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
13 true, testified in open court, as follows:
14
15 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
16
17 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
18 Q. Again, good afternoon, Mr. -- is it
19 Lammers?
20 A. Lammers, uh-huh, Arlie Lammers.
21 Q. All right. I am going to spend some
22 time talking with you a little bit about your
23 questionnaire and a little bit about the death penalty
24 and how you feel about it.
25 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1491

1 affirmatively.)
2 Q. And some general principles of law
3 that apply to this case. Thanks for filling out your

4 questionnaire, that is a big help for us. And there is
5 no right or wrong answers, just let us know how you feel.
6 A. Sure.
7 Q. Thanks. First off, I see that you
8 know several lawyers here in town. Do you know either of
9 the local counsel; either Preston Douglass or Richard
10 Mosty?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Okay. Tell me about how you know
13 which one or both, do know both of them?
14 A. I know both of them. I have met Mr.
15 Mosty, I don't know him well. I don't know that I know
16 Mr. Douglass real well, but we have had some Emmaus
17 activities together, which is a church function.
18 Q. Okay. So you all go to the same
19 church?
20 A. No, we don't. The Emmaus community is
21 a religious group of folks that meets on monthly basis.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Sometimes a weekly basis, we used to
24 meet on a weekly basis.
25
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1492

1 THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Can
2 you spell that, please?
3 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: E-M-M-A-U-S.
4
5
6 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
7 Q. And what does that stand for? To show
8 my ignorance.
9 A. The walk to Emmaus.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. When the pilgrims were walking.
12 Q. That is where it is from?
13 A. Yes, uh-huh.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And Jesus appeared to them.
16 Q. Uh-huh. I didn't know if that also
17 was an acronym for something?
18 A. No, no.
19 Q. Okay. How often do you all meet?
20 A. My reunion group, which is graduates,
21 meets once a week. And the community at large meets once
22 per month, the first Monday of each month.
23 Q. So, do you see Mr. Douglass about once
24 a month?
25 A. Well, no. I don't get to make it all
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1493

1 the time nor does he. Probably maybe every three months
2 I am able to see Mr. Douglass.
3 Q. I know that Kerrville is a small town,
4 and it's not uncommon to run into the local lawyers.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is there anything about that that
7 would influence you in this case?
8 A. Not at all.
9 Q. Okay. I also see you are a Cowboy
10 fan?
11 A. Was that on the questionnaire?
12 Q. Well, it says you like to watch the
13 Cowboys.
14 A. Oh, yes, uh-huh. I used to live in
15 Dallas.
16 Q. They didn't give you much to look at
17 yesterday, did they?
18 A. Not until the last minute.
19 Q. Mr. Lammers, what did you do in the
20 Navy?
21 A. I was an electronic technician,
22 aviation electronic technician, radio operator, airborne.
23 Q. Okay. Did do you that the whole 20
24 years?
25 A. No. The first four years I was
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1494

1 sea-going electronic technician, and then I finished up
2 in the reserves, as an aviation electronic technician and
3 radio operator in transports and anti-submarine warfare.
4 Q. It sounds interesting.
5 A. It was.
6 Q. I see now that you work for, I think
7 it is M.H.M.R. Is that right?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Tell me a little bit about your duties
10 there as a case manager.
11 A. Okay. In essence, a case manager
12 works with outpatients from the State hospital. In fact,
13 not all of them have been in the State hospital, but for
14 one reason or another, they need assistance with
15 maintaining independent living in the community.
16 And I have a caseload of like 26 folks
17 that I assist and maintain in this independence, and keep
18 them out of the State hospital to the best of my ability.
19 It's a lot less expensive to treat them outside than it
20 is inside.
21 Q. Sure. Do you visit them there in
22 their homes?
23 A. Yes, I do, a minimum of once per
24 month.
25 Q. And you have been doing that about
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1495

1 three years?
2 A. Yes, a little over three years.
3 Q. And I see you have a couple of kids.
4 Do you have any grandkids?
5 A. Yes, I do. I have a grandson that was
6 two in July.
7 Q. My mom says that is the best part of
8 having kids is having grandkids.
9 A. Well, mine lives in California, so I
10 don't get to see them very often.
11 Q. Tell me a little bit about your radio
12 broadcasting background. What did you do?
13 A. It's gone on and off for years. I
14 first started in the military on AFRS as a rock and roll
15 DJ back in the mid '50s, that ages me a little bit. The
16 past ten years, I have been broadcasting on local
17 stations, two stations as a matter of fact.
18 Some DJ work, mostly talk shows, and
19 one program I have had running for over ten years. It's
20 called Radio-Tradio on Saturday mornings where people
21 call in and buy, sell and trade, and this type of thing.
22 We kibitz back and forth on the air
23 and so forth. Recently, just last Friday, I resigned
24 from that position.
25 Q. Okay. Just had enough?
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1496

1 A. I got tired of working on the
2 weekends.
3 Q. I understand that. And the talk
4 shows. What sort of talk shows?
5 A. I had one talk show for a year, it was
6 called Do You Believe, it was a ministry of my own on the
7 air. I interviewed pastors and preachers where they
8 maybe called from the different denominations as to their
9 beliefs. I paid for that air time myself, and that was
10 only for a year.
11 Other talk shows, well, of course, the
12 Tradio thing is a talk show. And then I have been
13 hosting the Hill Country Garden Show for about the past
14 year, which we have a fellow that comes in and talks
15 about gardening and landscaping; and here again, and we
16 kibitz back and forth.
17 Q. I could probably use some help there
18 if I listened to that one. Do you have any questions for
19 me, before we get into this a little more deeply?
20 A. No, I really don't.
21 Q. Okay. Let me tell you up front: It
22 is our goal to kill that woman down there at the other

23 end of this table. I'll be up-front about that. We
24 believe we have the type of case and the quality of
25 evidence to do that. Would you have any trouble in
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1497

1 participating in that process?
2 A. No, I don't have any problem with
3 that.
4 Q. All right. I see here that you,
5 excuse me, read a little bit about this case here in the
6 Kerrville paper.
7 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
8 affirmatively.)
9 Q. And, you know, this case has received
10 a lot of publicity, that is the main reason we're down
11 here.
12 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
13 affirmatively.)
14 Q. There is nothing wrong with having
15 read anything or seeing anything on television or hearing
16 anything on the radio, that doesn't disqualify you from
17 being a juror. But what we are looking for is 12 folks
18 that will wait and hear the evidence in the courtroom and
19 not make judgments based on what they read in the press.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. I -- from your intellect and your
22 background I don't think you would have any problem doing
23 that. Would you?
24 A. I don't think I would.
25 Q. Okay. So you will wait, listen to the
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1498

1 evidence in the case, and then make the judgment if you
2 are called as a juror.
3 A. Yes, I would.
4 Q. All right. I also see that it says
5 that you are in favor of the death penalty if someone has
6 willfully taken another person's life. Can you tell me a
7 little bit about your feelings with that, Mr. Lammers?
8 A. Well, I believe if a person has
9 intentionally or willfully taken another's life, that
10 they should pay with their own life. I don't believe in
11 having them rot in prison. I think they should just go
12 ahead and pay with their life.
13 Q. Okay. Here in Texas not all murder
14 cases are capital murder cases. In Texas you have got to
15 have murder plus something else, if you will. It just
16 depends on the -- sometimes certain victims make a murder
17 qualify for the death penalty.
18 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
19 affirmatively.)
20 Q. And sometimes murder plus maybe
21 another crime.
22 Let me kind of go over what are
23 death-penalty-appropriate cases here in Texas, if you
24 will. If you murder a police officer while he is in the
25 line of duty, or a fireman in the line of duty, or a
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1499

1 prison guard while they're on the job. Those are
2 possible death penalty cases.
3 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
4 affirmatively.)
5 Q. Additionally, if you kill more than
6 one person, that is a crime that you would be eligible
7 for the death penalty. If you murder for hire, if I am
8 the one who pays somebody to murder and I would be

9 eligible for the death penalty, or the person who
10 actually takes the money, and for money kills someone.
11 Either end of that murder for hire scheme, you are
12 eligible for the death penalty here.
13 Additionally, if you do a murder plus
14 something else: Rape, robbery, a kidnapping, something
15 like that, another enumerated felony, then you could be
16 eligible for the death penalty.
17 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
18 affirmatively.)
19 Q. Or, as in this case, the murder of a
20 child under the age of six. Let me ask you, Mr. Lammers:
21 Do you believe those are appropriate types of cases for
22 the death penalty?
23 A. All of them?
24 Q. Yes, sir.
25 A. Yes, I do.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1500

1 Q. Okay. Is there anything you would add
2 to that list, if you were Governor of Texas?
3 A. Well, I don't know if it was included,
4 or did you say more than one person?
5 Q. Yes, sir.
6 A. Like in a mass murder?
7 Q. Yes, sir.
8 A. Something of that nature? Okay, yes.
9 Q. If you kill more than one, two or
10 more.
11 A. If you kill more than one, yes,
12 absolutely.
13 Q. Okay. Anything else come to mind?
14 A. I can't think of anything. My mind
15 doesn't run in those circles, I'm sorry.
16 Q. It's not something that you sit around
17 and think about?
18 A. I don't sit around and think about
19 those things. I can't think of any right offhand.
20 Q. All right. But those sound fair to
21 you?
22 A. Yes, they do.
23 Q. In your questionnaire you said -- it's
24 been a couple weeks since you filled this out, so I will
25 read it to you.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1501

1 A. Okay.
2 Q. You said that, "I believe the death
3 penalty is appropriate in all capital murder cases."
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. That is a common opinion of folks when
6 you are just talking about the death penalty and you are
7 talking about capital murder cases. Sure, if it's
8 capital murder, they ought to get the death penalty. And
9 that is fine to have that opinion as a citizen, but as a
10 juror, you cannot automatically say, "Somebody is guilty
11 of capital murder, therefore, they must get the death
12 penalty." The State has to jump through a couple more
13 hoops, and I want to talk to you today a little bit about
14 that.
15 The hoops, if you will, that we have
16 to jump through, well, let me back up a bit. There's two
17 phases to a trial. The first phase is the
18 guilt/innocence phase of the trial, we have to prove to
19 you beyond a reasonable doubt. You are familiar with
20 that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Have you had jury service before?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. And, if we find -- if you find
25 the defendant guilty, then we proceed to the punishment
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1502

1 phase of the trial. In that phase, you may or may not
2 hear more evidence.
3 Now I can't really get into that, but
4 the commitment I will need from you is that when we get
5 to the punishment phase of the trial, you won't
6 automatically do anything. You will wait and evaluate

7 the entire evidence at that point. Will you do that, Mr.
8 Lammers?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, the evidence that you will have
11 to evaluate will be based on these two questions. The
12 first question is: "Do you find from the evidence beyond
13 a reasonable doubt, that there is a probability that the
14 defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that
15 would constitute a continuing threat to society?"
16 Now, as in the first phase of the
17 trial, the guilt/innocence phase, we have the burden of
18 proof. Here again, we have the burden of proof. We have
19 to prove to you beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a
20 probability that the defendant would be a future danger,
21 actually, if you want to just summarize that.
22 A. Uh-huh, yes.
23 Q. What does probability mean to you?
24 And let me tell you why I ask you these questions. The
25 Judge is going to give you, if you are a juror in this
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1503

1 case, a bunch of definitions, but he will not give you
2 any definitions for this question. So, that is why it is
3 important to us to know kind of what these words mean to
4 you.
5 A. Okay. Proven beyond a reasonable
6 doubt that the defendant would very likely commit another
7 criminal act of violence.
8 Q. Okay. What is criminal acts of
9 violence? What sort of things would you be looking for
10 with that?
11 A. Well, a criminal act is something that
12 is against the law.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. And violence, meaning to -- with
15 intent to injure another person.
16 Q. So any sort of injury?
17 A. An injury to a person. Although
18 violence could be constituted as destroying property, but
19 I would look at it more as an act of violence against a
20 person, on another person.
21 Q. Now that is just individual
22 preference?
23 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
24 affirmatively.)
25 Q. How you look at it. And constitute a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1504

1 continuing threat to society. Society and -- I will --
2 instead of putting you on the spot and asking you what

3 that means to you, I'll kind of give you some guidance in
4 what I am looking for.
5 In your mind, would society include
6 people in the prison; that means prison guards,
7 chaplains, folks in there doing rehabilitation, if you
8 will, relatives visiting inmates or inmates, would
9 society include everyone to you?
10 A. I think society has to include
11 everybody because we're all in society. I would consider
12 if a person was an inmate and they were a threat to

13 another inmate, then certainly that would be part of
14 society. But I take it more so to mean law-abiding
15 citizens more than anything else.

16 Q. And you would agree with me, wouldn't
17 you, Mr. Lammers, that there are law-abiding citizens
18 that work in the prisons as well, they may be a chaplain
19 or a guard?
20 A. Oh, absolutely, yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. I would hope so.
23 Q. We all would hope so, yes, sir. So,
24 would you hold us to our burden in that case, to prove to
25 you that it is probable that the defendant would be a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1505

1 future danger and not automatically answer that question;
2 but wait and hear the evidence?
3 A. I would have to have all of the
4 evidence before I would make a decision, yes.
5 Q. And that is, yeah --
6 A. I got a little bit lost there when you
7 asked the question. I think I drifted off for a minute.
8 Q. Well, it's probably my fault. We have
9 talked to a bunch of folks, and so if I am not making
10 sense --
11 A. Well, in order to answer that
12 question, I believe that all of the evidence would have
13 to be presented, because I think sometimes the last
14 things said might sway a person one way or another. I
15 believe it should all be in.
16 Q. Okay. So you would wait until you
17 heard everything to make up your mind.
18 A. Yes, I would.
19 Q. Perfect. In order for the defendant
20 to die, I'm sure you have probably already figured this
21 out, but that question must be answered "yes."
22 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
23 affirmatively.)
24 Q. And then we would move -- if it's
25 answered "yes," you would move to the second special
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1506

1 issue. And if you would read that along with me. It
2 says: "Taking into consideration all of the evidence,
3 including the circumstances of the offense, the
4 defendant's character and background, and the personal

5 moral culpability of the defendant, is there a sufficient
6 mitigating circumstance or circumstances to warrant that
7 a sentence of life imprisonment rather than a death
8 sentence be imposed?"
9 And, obviously, for the death penalty
10 to result, that question must be answered "no."
11 Some people call this second question
12 a safety net. Let's say you found that she is guilty of
13 capital murder, killing a child under the age of six, you
14 believe she is a continuing threat, but something, and
15 you do not even have to imagine what in the world it
16 would be, but something in your mind, in your heart here,
17 makes you believe that the right thing to do, the only

18 thing you could do to live with yourself, is see a life
19 sentence is imposed.
20 Again, what we're looking for here,
21 Mr. Lammers, is somebody that will wait and not answer
22 that question before they have heard anything. And it's
23 kind of a deal, some people say, "You know it when you
24 see it." You don't have to think of what it is.

25 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1507

1 affirmatively.)
2 Q. You may sit on five million death
3 penalty cases and never hear anything that is sufficient
4 mitigating circumstance in your mind. But if you do, you
5 will know it when you see it. Can you do that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Is there anything that
8 comes to mind when you read that question about
9 sufficient mitigating circumstance? And I am not trying
10 to commit you here.
11 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
12 affirmatively.)
13 Q. Does anything, just off the top of

14 your head, sound mitigating to you in that it would
15 lessen somebody's moral blameworthiness?
16 A. Well, this would be like a tangible
17 situation. Right?
18 Q. Whatever you --
19 A. Is the way I would understand that.
20 Q. Right.
21 A. Something tangible that you could
22 really put your finger on. But then again you said
23 something that may be in the back of your mind, do you
24 know what it is that is keeping you from making this
25 judgment.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1508

1 Q. Let me give you an example: Some
2 people think that if the crime was committed while the
3 defendant was drinking or was drunk.
4 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
5 affirmatively.)
6 Q. That that would be mitigating, because
7 they didn't really -- I mean, they knew what they were

8 doing, and they knew the difference between right and
9 wrong, but they were so drunk that they don't think they
10 should have the death penalty.
11 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
12 affirmatively.)
13 Q. Other people think, well, alcohol, if
14 it's involved, I mean, nobody put it down their throat,
15 that ought to be aggravating. Okay?
16 Some people think that child abuse in
17 the background, they were sexually abused as a child,
18 that that would be something to look at.
19 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
20 affirmatively.)
21 Q. Or that they had a sufficient
22 education. Some people look at education two ways.

23 Well, they had the opportunities, so they should have
24 known better, or they have done something with their

25 life, so we will give them a chance. You see how things
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1509

1 can cut both ways?
2 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
3 affirmatively.)
4 Q. Is there anything in talking like that
5 that comes to mind in your mind about what would be
6 mitigating to you?
7 A. No, I think if there are circumstances
8 of that nature, that it should be brought to the Court's
9 attention by experts in the field; psychiatrists, or a
10 social worker, or psychologist, somebody that has worked
11 with these things all the time. And should be -- should
12 bring it up to light, and as a presentation to all. And
13 then to make an opinion or judgment on that basis.
14 Q. Okay. There is nothing automatically
15 that you would say, "That is mitigating." You would just
16 have to wait and hear it?
17 A. I would have to wait and here it, yes.
18 Q. Fair enough. And is your mind -- you
19 know -- in your questionnaire you put that you believe
20 the death penalty is appropriate in all capital murder
21 cases.
22 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
23 affirmatively.)
24 Q. And again, I know I am probably
25 repeating myself on a couple of things, but I want to
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1510

1 make it real clear, because they are going to have some
2 opportunity to ask you some questions, and I want to make
3 sure that I have covered all my bases.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. You can't just automatically say, "You
6 know, guilty equals death."
7 A. No.
8 Q. You have seen now from the questions

9 that you don't even ever write death or life. You just
10 answer these questions in such a way that that sentence
11 is the only sentence. The Judge puts it in a formula,
12 computes it, and he has no choice.
13 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
14 affirmatively.)
15 Q. Could your mind be open to a death or
16 life sentence? In other words, could you follow the law
17 and answer these questions, according to your beliefs?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On the second question, the other

20 thing I wanted to mention that I didn't say was, there is
21 no burden of proof in that question. That is just,

22 again, the safety net. So the sufficient mitigating
23 circumstance, if there is one, could come from either
24 side.
25 A. Okay.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1511

1 Q. Okay. I want to talk with you a
2 little bit now about the indictment. And it's before
3 you, Mr. Lammers, it's there, it should be on your desk.
4 A. Oh, okay.
5
6 THE COURT: If you will read the
7 typewritten portions.
8
9 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
10 Q. The typewritten paragraph there. Just
11 let me know when you are finished.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. I think the Judge read that to you a
14 couple of weeks ago.
15 A. The first day, uh-huh. (Witness
16 nodding head affirmatively.)
17 Q. And that is what we must prove to you
18 beyond a reasonable doubt.
19 In any case, that is our burden. And
20 we can do it several different ways; we can do it through
21 direct evidence or indirect, what is sometimes called
22 circumstantial evidence.
23 Direct evidence is an eyewitness, that
24 is it. In most or in many murder cases, the eyewitness
25 is dead. The defendant doesn't have to testify, we can't
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1512

1 call the defendant to the stand, and you can't use that
2 against us or her in any way.
3 So, because of that, in murder cases
4 oftentimes, we must present and prove our case through
5 indirect evidence; what is called circumstantial
6 evidence. And that is everything else: Fingerprints,
7 DNA, blood spatters, statements by the defendant that

8 don't comport with the crime scene, fibers, anything like
9 that.
10 Would you be able to convict the
11 defendant of capital murder based on circumstantial
12 evidence alone, if we proved it to you beyond a
13 reasonable doubt?
14 A. Okay. That is -- yes.
15 Q. Okay. But your mind is not closed to
16 that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Additionally, on that piece of
19 paper is everything we have to prove to you beyond a
20 reasonable doubt, and we no other burden. And -- where
21 am I going with this? Let me tell you where I am going.
22 We don't have to prove motive to you, it's not a
23 requirement in Texas.
24 And there is really a good reason for
25 that. As I just mentioned earlier, and the Judge had
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1513

1 mentioned a couple of weeks ago, the defendant has an
2 absolute right not to testify.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. If we called her to the stand, the
5 case would be reversed in a heartbeat. So because of
6 that, we're not required to prove why a defendant did

7 something. It may be after you have heard the case that
8 the motive is clear as a bell. And it may be that there
9 are several motives. You may think one is a primary
10 motive, another juror may think another one is a primary
11 motive. Or it may be that you heard everything and you
12 still, you know, scratch your head and go, "I don't know
13 why, but I know she did it."
14 Would you follow the law in that
15 respect and not require the State to prove motive?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Now, I want to talk with you a
18 little bit about some general principles of law. The

19 Judge went over some of these but it's been a couple
20 weeks, so I am just going to restate them.
21 The defendant has an absolute right to
22 be presumed innocent. All that means is, another way of
23 saying we have the burden of proof, which we gladly
24 accept. If you voted right now, you would have to find
25 her not guilty, because you have not heard anything.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1514

1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Additionally, the indictment is no
3 evidence of guilt. You can't use that in any way. And
4 she has an absolute right not to testify, and you would
5 not use that against her, would you?
6 A. No, it's her privilege.
7 Q. All right. One other thing I don't
8 think the Judge did cover was that all witnesses must be
9 treated equally when they start. They are all going to

10 come in, they are all going to take an oath, and they are
11 all going to start telling their story, they are all
12 going to start testifying. Okay? And you have to wait
13 until you hear from a witness to judge their credibility.
14 Let me tell you where I am going here.
15 Sometimes defense attorneys, I'm not saying these guys,
16 but sometimes defense attorneys would say, "Would you
17 believe a police officer simply because he is a police
18 officer?" Well, that is kind of a trick question because
19 you can't do that, because you have to wait to hear it.
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Would you be able to wait and judge
22 all the witnesses equally?
23 A. Oh, yes.
24 Q. And one other thing is you are not
25 entitled to consider parole. And I know parole is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1515

1 something you see in the newspapers and hear about, but
2 there really is a great reason for that. And it is that

3 it changes, like the wind, with the folks that are on the
4 Board of Pardons and Paroles, with whoever the Governor
5 is, with whatever the law is, with whatever the
6 legislature says.
7 And so, because of that and because
8 there is no certainty, you must assume that a life
9 sentence is just that, a life sentence, and you may not
10 consider parole in any way. Would you be able to do
11 that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. I think that is about all of my
14 questions, Mr. Lammers. Do you have any questions for
15 me?
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. Okay. Again, what we're looking for
18 is somebody that can keep an open mind and wait until
19 they hear the evidence in the courtroom.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. Thank you for your candor.
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. Okay.
24
25 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: We will pass this
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1516

1 juror.
2 THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Wallace.
3 All right. Go ahead, Mr. Douglass.
4 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Thank
5 you, your Honor.
6
7 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
8
9 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
10 Q. Mr. Lammers, I have been thinking
11 about probably this question more than any other ones and
12 I would hope you feel as awkward calling me Mr. Douglass
13 as I feel calling you Mr. Lammers.
14 A. I do.
15 Q. Okay.
16
17 THE COURT: Well, feel free to call
18 each other whatever you wish.
19 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Well,
20 it's hard not to call someone what you call them
21 everyday.
22 THE COURT: Well, perhaps we better
23 keep it on the record.
24 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Well, as
25 long as it's with a smile.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1517

1 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Right.
2
3 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
4 Q. So, if I don't call you Mr. Lammers
5 and I say Arlie a couple of times, it's not out of
6 disrespect.
7 A. I understand that, I know that.
8 Q. Okay. You can call me whatever you
9 want to call me.
10 A. That's okay, Preston.
11 Q. In this matter, obviously, from where
12 I sit representing, along with Curtis and Richard Mosty
13 and Mr. Mulder from Dallas, all of us have a very

14 different perspective from that of the attorneys
15 representing the State.
16 In that regards, and I know you have
17 been up there, I know you have been answering questions
18 very honestly and forthrightly for a while. Obviously,
19 since this is the only opportunity anybody from this side
20 of the deal will get to talk to you, it's going to take
21 me a little bit of time, and I hope you will just bear
22 with me?
23 A. Sure, you bet.
24 Q. When the death penalty is involved in
25 a case, it seems almost necessarily that a great deal of
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1518

1 the discussion centers around that penalty, about the
2 death penalty and someone's feelings about it. To be

3 very candid and up front with you, Arlie, Darlie Routier
4 has entered a plea of not guilty. She is going to enter
5 a plea of not guilty in front of the jury, and will stand
6 behind that plea 100 percent throughout the trial.
7 It is our expectation that we will not
8 be talking about punishment issues, in that the
9 guilt/innocence stage of this trial is what the whole
10 thing is about. So, while I will talk to you a little
11 bit about punishment issues, because it's my only
12 opportunity and I am required to do so, I want to talk to
13 you about the guilt/innocence phase of the trial.
14 Do you recall back when Judge Tolle
15 was talking about indictments, that in Dallas County
16 there are some 25,000 indictments issued each year. Do
17 you remember that?
18 A. I don't remember him giving that exact
19 number, I really don't.
20 Q. Okay. He said that as an estimate
21 that there are approximately 25,000 indictments are
22 issued every year.
23
24 THE COURT: There are slightly over
25 25.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1519

1 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Over
2 25,000 indictments.
3 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I'm sure
4 there's a lot. I used to live there, it's a large city.
5
6 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
7 Q. Not only that, but he pointed out to
8 the panel, when you all came in the first day, that any

9 one single Grand Jury panel meeting on any one single day
10 might return as many as 100 or maybe 125 indictments
11 against people, just in their one period of time they are
12 sitting there during the day, is what I recall Judge
13 Tolle saying.
14 And he went on to say that in many of
15 those situations the person who is accused and the person
16 who finds themselves with an indictment, never knew that
17 they were being investigated, never had the opportunity
18 to come down to the courthouse and tell their side of the
19 story.
20 Does that surprise you to hear that?
21 A. Well, it doesn't surprise me in that,
22 since there's a lot of things happen in Dallas County of
23 a lesser nature. It would surprise me that an indictment
24 for capital murder would go by so callously, I would
25 think that a person accused of capital murder would be
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1520

1 aware that there is something going on.
2 Q. And that brings up another point.
3 When you came up here, obviously, you saw the TV trucks
4 sitting out there --
5 A. Oh, yeah, sure.
6 Q. -- and you saw a roomful of people and
7 you saw judges and you saw lawyers representing the State
8 that have come a long way. And really there are two
9 groups of people that look at things that way. So you

10 will find people that say, "Let me tell you, if someone
11 is indicted and all those trucks and all this stuff is
12 going on, I believe where there is smoke there is fire."
13 And they tend to believe that there has just got to be

14 something to something if all this commotion is going on.
15 There are also people that say, "Well,
16 I heard what the Judge said that an indictment is no
17 evidence," and they discount that. They discount the
18 fact that an indictment has been issued.
19 How do you feel about it?
20 A. Where there is smoke, there is fire?
21 Q. Uh-huh. (The attorney is nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 A. And all the news media and everything?
24 Q. Yes. What do you think about that?
25 A. First of all, I believe the news media
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1521

1 is there because it's newsworthy someplace, back in
2 Dallas, Houston or San Antonio. Being a part of the

3 media for a number of years, I know that your news story
4 sells better if you have got something hot and spicy on
5 it, you know.

6 And that is part of the broadcasting I
7 did, too, was news for quite a while. To me that doesn't
8 have any bearing, you know, the satellite dishes are

9 there, the high technology, the big to-do, the circus
10 atmosphere is something just to gather news and sell
11 newspapers and radio and TV time I believe.
12 Q. Do you place any importance as far as
13 your prospective service as a juror, does that mean
14 anything to you, thinking about being a juror?
15 A. No, not at all.
16 Q. As you know, everyone in our state

17 that has been accused of a crime is presumed innocence?
18 A. Yes, thank goodness.
19 Q. Do you -- based on the fact that there
20 has been an indictment issued, do you believe that that
21 in any way affects the presumption of innocence, lessens
22 the presumption of innocence?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Simply put, an indictment is nothing
25 more than a piece of paper that tells a defendant, puts
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1522

1 them on notice as to just what in the world they are
2 charged with.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. And it's the piece of paper that gives
5 this Judge jurisdiction to conduct a trial. Can you tell
6 us, Arlie, that I don't care what an indictment says, I
7 am going to make the State prove its case. I am not
8 going to believe that there is any evidence associated
9 with an indictment.
10 A. Are you asking me if I believe that?
11 Q. Right.
12 A. That there is no evidence associated
13 with the indictment?
14 Q. That an indictment itself is no
15 evidence of guilt?
16 A. Yes, I believe that.
17 Q. You go along with that?
18 A. Yes, I do, uh-huh. (Witness nodding
19 head affirmatively.) It's up to the State to prove it --
20 this.
21 Q. Okay. Now, getting to that, the
22 burden of proof lies with the attorneys representing the
23 State and never shifts to the defendant.
24 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
25 affirmatively.)
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1523

1 Q. I have heard it said before that in
2 the other courtroom where they have some ceiling fans,
3 that one judge said that Preston could just simply sit

4 there during the whole trial, watch the ceiling fans spin
5 around, and then if he determined that he didn't think

6 the State had proved it's case, do nothing more, than
7 just stare at the ceiling fans until the trial is over.
8 It's kind of a silly example, but I
9 think it accurately shows that there is absolutely no

10 obligation on a defendant -- of a citizen charged with a
11 crime, to prove anything. Do you think that it is
12 incumbent upon a citizen who is charged with a crime to
13 prove his or her innocence?
14 A. To prove that they are innocent?
15 Q. Do you think that should be required?
16 A. No, I think they are letting you know
17 that when they say they are not guilty. I don't think
18 they have to prove anything.
19 Q. Let me ask you about a hypothetical
20 situation.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. Assume you are a juror and you have
23 heard some evidence in the case and the State calls -- I

24 don't know, a bunch of witnesses. And you as a juror sit
25 there and you say, "Boy, this is a close question." But
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1524

1 the last witness gets off the stand and one of the
2 attorneys representing the State stands up and says, "The
3 State rests its case." And Judge Tolle looks over at the
4 defense lawyer and says, "Do you want to call a witness?"
5 "No. We don't want to call anybody. We rest our case."
6 And you are sitting there and you say,
7 "Wow. They have proven -- the State maybe has proved
8 something happened, but I have got some questions in my
9 mind."
10 Now, how do you handle that? What do
11 you think, how do you resolve the questions left when you
12 say to yourself, there is no more evidence that is going
13 to be presented?
14 A. You still have some questions about
15 what is going on? Is that what you are saying?
16 Q. Let's say you have heard the evidence.
17 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
18 affirmatively.)
19 Q. And the evidence has raised some
20 questions in your mind. You know there was a crime.
21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. You know there is a lot of people
24 maybe pointing fingers.
25 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1525

1 affirmatively.)
2 Q. And you know we're having a trial, but
3 maybe the evidence has not absolutely convinced you, and
4 you are thinking, boy, I would sure like to hear a little
5 more. But the defense, they decide they are not going to
6 say a word. How do you deal with that?
7 A. Well, not ever having been on a jury
8 before, I probably would ask the judge to -- maybe to
9 clarify something, or whoever does that in a court.
10 Maybe to clarify some of the past questions that had been
11 answered, maybe I just don't have it clear in my mind.
12 If that is possible to do that.
13 Or if that is not possible, I would

14 have to rely upon the evidence that has been presented.
15 And if the State thinks they have proved their case, I
16 would have to rely on that evidence alone, if I am not
17 allowed to ask for further clarification.

18 Q. All right. In any event, you wouldn't
19 feel like the defendant has to put on some evidence to
20 respond?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. And as in her defense lawyer,
24 attorney, then it would be up to you to say something
25 else if you wanted to or not.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1526

1 Q. Would you agree that there is no
2 requirement that any evidence be put on?
3 A. There is no requirement, no. The
4 evidence, well, going back to the prosecutor here, they
5 are the ones that have to prove the guilt, not the
6 defendant.
7 Q. Now, same situation, and you are
8 sitting there and you are thinking to yourself, but I
9 have some questions in my mind. I have some doubts about
10 the outcome of the case.
11 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
12 affirmatively.)
13 Q. If the burden of proof is on the State
14 to prove their allegation beyond a reasonable doubt, and
15 you still have doubts, what is your verdict in that
16 situation?
17 A. If I still have doubts, then that is
18 not beyond a reasonable doubt, if I am still doubtful

19 about this.
20 Q. Right.
21 A. I would have to go with not guilty.
22 Q. Okay. One of my partners has used as
23 an analogy a circle and a light flashing through the
24 circle as the presumption of innocence. That you have a

25 clear circle and there's light coming through it. If you
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1527

1 will just kind follow along with me, and that when a
2 trial starts, there is no proof that has been brought.
3 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
4 affirmatively.)
5 Q. But then as the trial goes along, the
6 State may bring different types of evidence which begin
7 to perhaps block out the light coming through.
8 A. Okay, uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
9 affirmatively.)
10 Q. Would you agree with me that in order
11 for the State to meet its burden of proof, it has to

12 completely obliterate any light coming through this
13 circle, as an analogy. It has to completely block out
14 any rays of reasonable doubt that might be coming
15 through.
16 A. So, if there is just one little

17 pinnacle of light coming through, that would be some
18 doubt. Right?
19 Q. Right.
20 A. That is the inference you are making?
21 Q. Right, right.
22 A. Okay. It would have to be filled
23 completely.
24 Q. So, and that is exactly where I was
25 headed. Is if you have it completely black, but in your
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1528

1 mind, you sit there and you say, "But there is a doubt
2 that I have that I cannot resolve."
3 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
4 affirmatively.)
5 Q. Can you pledge to this Court and to
6 this defendant that you would resolve any reasonable
7 doubt that you have in favor of the defendant?
8
9 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Judge, I was
10 standing to object to saying any doubt, but he cleared it
11 up by reasonable doubt.
12 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Reasonable
13 doubt, yes, yes.
14
15 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.:
16 Q. And you realize that just like the

17 saying the tie goes to the runner, that any doubt which
18 you can base on reason that you believe is a doubt that
19 is just not something you pull out of the air, but you
20 base it on what you reasoned.
21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. That if you have a doubt, no matter
24 how great, that you must resolve that in favor of the
25 defendant?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1529

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Are you comfortable with that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Now, I know you mentioned
5 in your questionnaire that you felt that it's an
6 important right of a defendant not to testify. There are
7 some people that feel like, that if they were on trial --
8 there are really like three groups. There is the -- some
9 group that says, "If I was on trial for something, I dang
10 sure would get up there and say anything I can think of
11 saying."
12 Some people say, "I don't know, I'm
13 not sure. I would probably rely on what my lawyers tell
14 me to make that decision." Then there is another group
15 that says, "I'm not a very good talker, and I have never
16 done this before. They are liable -- And I would be so
17 nervous, they are liable to twist everything around I say
18 to where nothing comes out the way I want to say it.
19 Don't get me near there."
20 Can you identify with any one of those
21 particular groups?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Which would you identify with?
24 A. Well, I would probably rely on my
25 attorneys, accept their advice. And because, even though
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1530

1 I am used to speaking before people, I'm sure some real
2 hot-shot lawyer could get my words twisted around. So I
3 would rely on my attorneys.
4 Q. Some people use the example, and I
5 know this is certainly true of me, if I went to a
6 mechanic and he said I needed to change my distributor
7 cap, or the electrical engineering or something, I'm
8 going to believe them, because I don't know a dang thing
9 about that stuff.
10 A. Sure.
11 Q. Okay. Let's talk about motive for a
12 minute.
13 The State has said, and correctly so,
14 Ms. Wallace has said that motive is not a procedural

15 hurdle, an element that they must prove. Let me give you
16 an analogy: You can probably see in that indictment
17 where it says that on or about a certain date, in Dallas
18 County, that they allege a crime was committed.
19 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
20 affirmatively.)
21 Q. For instance --
22 A. It doesn't give a date or anything.
23 Q. Okay.
24
25 THE COURT: Well, it does up at the
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1531

1 top.
2 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Oh, at the
3 top, oh, okay.
4 THE COURT: The whole thing is the
5 indictment.
6 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Oh, I see.
7 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: That preprinted
8 part.
9 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Oh, okay.

10 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: And
11 you'll see it gives a date.
12 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Oh, the 6th of
13 June, okay.
14 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: And you
15 will notice it also says in Dallas County.
16 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Uh-huh.
17 (Witness nodding head affirmatively.)
18
19 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
20 Q. For instance, those are the things

21 that the State has the burden to prove to you beyond a
22 reasonable doubt. For instance, they must resolve, you
23 know, they must prove it happened in Dallas County?

24 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
25 affirmatively.)
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1532

1 Q. That is a hurdle they have got to
2 cross. As you correctly pointed out, motive is not

3 listed, it does not say why this happened. So, it's not
4 a procedural burden we have got to get over. But, as a
5 juror, you have an ability to sit through the evidence.
6 It's your right to listen to all of the evidence and

7 decide based upon what you hear whether they have met
8 that very high burden of proof.
9 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
10 affirmatively.)
11 Q. Can you agree with me that while they
12 may not have to prove why from the standpoint of a
13 motive, that in some circumstances the absence of proof
14 of motive may raise questions in your mind?
15
16 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Your Honor, I'll
17 object to him attempting to commit the juror based on
18 things we do not have to prove.
19 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Your
20 Honor, we have been through this, I think.
21 THE COURT: Well, I'll let him ask his
22 question, but I see what you are saying. The State never
23 has to prove motive. You understand that?
24 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
25 THE COURT: So they are not trying to
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1533

1 commit you, I won't let anybody commit you on something
2 they don't have to prove. But if you will listen to Mr.
3 Douglass's questions, I think it becomes rather clear.
4 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Would you
5 restate the question, please, Preston?
6
7 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
8 Q. Sure. What my question is: While
9 they don't have a burden that the Judge requires them to
10 prove why a crime happened, could you agree that in some

11 circumstances if you have evidence that you are trying to
12 piece together as a juror, that the absence of proof of a
13 motive might raise questions in your mind, such that you
14 may develop a reasonable doubt? Could you foresee a
15 situation where that could happen?
16 A. The absence of proof of a motive?
17 Q. Right.
18 A. There won't be any proof of motive.
19 Q. Okay. Imagine a situation where you
20 say to yourself -- well, first off, you don't really know
21 what proof there is going to be of anything.
22 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
23 affirmatively.)
24 Q. The fact that they don't have the
25 burden doesn't mean they can't come try to explain
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1534

1 something.
2 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
3 affirmatively.)
4 Q. You know, I mean --
5 A. Oh, they can try to explain the
6 motive, even though they don't have to prove it?
7 Q. Yes. It's not required.
8 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
9 affirmatively.)
10 Q. But they may try to put on evidence.
11 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
12 affirmatively.)
13 Q. In a hypothetical case, you just can't
14 determine. For instance, if they are trying a bank

15 robbery case, and someone goes in to rob a bank, they
16 don't have to prove the reason they went in. But we all
17 know they are going to say, "Well, and he grabbed the
18 money and he walked out the door. He went in there to
19 grab money."
20 What I am getting at is, can you see
21 that if you are trying to weigh different parts of
22 evidence, and you are trying to see what makes sense to
23 resolve the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt in
24 your mind, decide whether they have met that burden of
25 proof?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1535

1 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
2 affirmatively.)
3 Q. That, perhaps, if the story doesn't
4 fit, you have just got one piece of evidence, you have
5 another, but they just don't mesh together. Can you

6 understand that the fact that there is an absence of
7 proof of motive, you might say, "Well, I understand point
8 A, I understand point B, but it doesn't lead to point C.
9 And because there is no proof as to how you connect these
10 two things together, I would have a question my mind."
11 A. There would be a reasonable doubt
12 then.
13 Q. Right. And what I'm saying is, we
14 can't tell you what the evidence is going to be.
15 A. Right.
16 Q. I am going to say, can you understand
17 that in some situations that the absence of proof -- the
18 absence of proof of why, may cause you to say, "Well, I
19 needed that glue to hold these different pieces of
20 evidence together." Can you understand that?
21 A. Yes, I understand that, okay. That
22 would lead to the reasonable doubt then.
23 Q. Could.
24 A. Could, yes.
25 Q. Would agree it might be able to lead
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1536

1 to reasonable doubt?
2 A. It might be.
3 Q. All right. Now, taking it one step
4 further. I do not in any way believe, Arlie, that after
5 hearing the evidence in this case you are not going to
6 believe that there was a terrible crime committed. Okay?
7 We all know that. As a juror, can you appreciate that
8 your duty as a juror is not to solve the crime, but to
9 determine whether the allegations in the State's
10 indictment are proven beyond a reasonable doubt? Can you
11 appreciate the difference between that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. Ms. Wallace earlier talked
14 about -- she may not have in so many words, but there has
15 been talk, and we have talked to different people, so
16 sometimes I forget which ones we have talked to different
17 people about. Direct versus indirect evidence. Direct
18 evidence being an eyewitness that says, "I saw this."

19 And indirect evidence being circumstantial evidence.
20 You, as a juror, are not given any
21 scale or any kind of formula for determining which
22 evidence means more to you, what you are going to put

23 more weight on. You might hear an eyewitness and say, "I
24 don't believe a word that guy said." Person who claims
25 to be an eyewitness. You might hear other kinds of
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1537

1 evidence and say, "I believe everything about that
2 evidence, but I don't believe any of it, or I believe
3 part of it." That is within your sole discretion as a
4 juror.
5 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
6 affirmatively.)
7 Q. What Ms. Wallace was asking you is,
8 can you, if the case -- if a case that is presented is
9 based solely on circumstantial evidence, fingerprints,
10 hair fibers or things, if it's based only on that, can
11 you then judge the case and hold the State to proof
12 beyond a reasonable doubt? You said, "Yeah, I could?"
13 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
14 affirmatively.)
15 Q. I also am curious as to whether you
16 can appreciate that there can often be a difference

17 between direct and indirect evidence? And that you may
18 put some weight, heavy weight, on some evidence and some
19 you might say I don't think it is worth any weight, but
20 that is your choice. Do you understand that?
21 A. Uh-huh, uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. Are you comfortable with that?
24 A. Well, you are talking about indirect
25 evidence?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1538

1 Q. Circumstantial evidence.
2 A. Circumstantial evidence, right. Yes,
3 I am comfortable with that.
4 Q. Can you appreciate sometimes
5 eyewitness testimony may be better than circumstantial
6 evidence? And sometimes circumstantial evidence may be
7 better than eyewitness testimony? But it's up to you to
8 make that decision in your mind as to which persuades
9 you --
10 A. In my mind the eyewitness testimony,
11 if they are telling the truth, would carry more water

12 than circumstantial evidence.
13 Q. All right.

14 A. If they are truthful.
15 Q. All right. And I am just going to go
16 back one more time to one issue I think we went through.
17 When we talk about the presumption of
18 innocence, what really, from my situation gets more
19 important is, that you don't presume us guilty.
20 A. Yes, right.
21 Q. I don't think in this trial we're
22 asking for a head start, we're just asking to start even.
23 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
24 affirmatively.)
25 Q. And it certainly isn't even if it
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1539

1 begins with a presumption, and we have got to start two
2 pegs down. Do you believe, Arlie, that regardless of

3 where you are from and your background and all those
4 things, that you indulge that presumption of innocence to
5 us and let us all start equal.
6 A. Absolutely, and I don't know anything
7 about this case other than what the Daily Times said.

8 Q. Have you ever done any reading or
9 studying about reasonable doubt as a level of proof?
10 Have you ever had any classes in that or anything?

11 A. No, I don't think I have. I am trying
12 to think back in college work.
13 Q. It used to be, and I know probably
14 once or twice while we were in the same reunion group, we
15 might have talked about court cases and things like that.
16 But I don't think it was often.
17 A. Not very often, no.
18 Q. Okay. Reasonable doubt is the highest
19 burden of proof there is in our State.
20 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
21 affirmatively.)
22 Q. If you are on a civil jury deciding
23 damages, money --
24 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
25 affirmatively.)
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1540

1 Q. -- the level of proof is a
2 preponderance of the evidence.
3 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
4 affirmatively.)
5 Q. For instance, somebody gets in a
6 wreck, hurts their neck and they want some money. All
7 that the plaintiff must show in that case is 51 percent,
8 the greater weight of the evidence. You see the old

9 scales of justice wherever they are tipped, ever so
10 slight. That is who carries the burden of proof.
11 Obviously, that is much lighter degree
12 of proof than in a criminal. Do you agree with me on
13 that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. One up from that is the burden of

16 proof called clear and convincing evidence. Clear and
17 convincing evidence speaks for itself, it's obviously
18 very strong evidence. And that is the kind of evidence
19 in family law cases, for instance, it has to be that

20 burden of proof, before, for an example, you would take a
21 child away from a mother. You have to prove your
22 allegations by clear and convincing evidence. Can you
23 appreciate that that is higher than preponderance?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But still, believe it or not, clear
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1541

1 and convincing evidence is even lower than