Volume 17

1 IN THE CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT NO. 3
2 DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
3
4
5
6 THE STATE OF TEXAS } NO. F-96-39973-J
7 VS: } & A-96-253
8 DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER } Kerr Co. Number
9
10
11
12
13 STATEMENT OF FACTS
14 JURY VOIR DIRE
15 INDIVIDUAL JURORS HEARING
16 VOL. 17 OF VOLS.
17 November 4, 1996
18 Monday
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 1326

1 C A P T I O N
2
3
4 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Monday, the 4th day of
5 November, 1996, in the Criminal District Court Number 3
6 of Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on
7 for a hearing before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the
8 Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas,
9 without a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open
10 court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse,
11 Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as
12 follows:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter 1327

1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2
3
4 HON. JOHN VANCE
5 Criminal District Attorney
6 Dallas County, Texas
7
8 BY: HON. TOBY L. SHOOK
9 Assistant District Attorney
10 Dallas County, Texas
11
12 AND:
13 HON. JOHN GRAU
14 Assistant District Attorney
15 Dallas County, Texas
16
17 AND:
18 HON. SHERRI WALLACE
19 Assistant District Attorney
20 Dallas County, Texas
21
22 APPEARING FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1328

1 ADDITIONAL APPEARANCES:
2
3 HON. DOUGLAS D. MULDER
4 Attorney at Law
5 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
6 717 N. Harwood
7 Dallas, TX 75201
8
9 AND: HON. CURTIS GLOVER
10 Attorney at Law
11 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
12 717 N. Harwood

13 Dallas, TX 75201
14
15 AND: HON. RICHARD C. MOSTY
16 Attorney at Law
17 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
18 820 Main Street, Suite 200
19 Kerrville, TX 78028
20
21 AND: HON. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.
22 Attorney at Law
23 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
24 820 Main Street, Suite 200
25 Kerrville, TX 78028
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1329

1
2 AND: HON. JOHN HAGLER
3 Attorney at Law

4 901 Main Street, Suite 3601
5 Dallas, TX 75202
6 ALL ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE
7 DEFENDANT: DARLIE ROUTIER
8 MR. HAGLER HANDLING THE APPEAL
9 AND:
10 HON. ALBERT D. PATILLO, III
11 Attorney at Law
12 820 Main Street, Suite 211
13 Kerrville, TX 78028
14 APPEARING FOR: Witness-
15 Detective Jimmy Patterson

16 only on one date in trial
17 AND:
18 HON. STEVEN J. PICKELL
19 Attorney at Law
20 620 Earl Garrett Street
21 Kerrville, TX 78028
22 APPEARING FOR: Witness

23 Officer Chris Frosch
24 only on one date in trial
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1330

1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 November 4th, 1996
4 Monday
5 8:30 a.m.
6
7 (Whereupon, the following
8 proceedings were held in

9 open court, in the presence
10 and hearing of the

11 defendant, being
12 represented by her attorneys
13 and the representatives of
14 the State of Texas,
15 as follows:)
16
17

18 THE COURT: This is Monday, November
19 4th, back on the record in the Darlie Routier matter.
20 All right. This is our number 33,
21 juror number 91, Jimmie, J-I-M-M-I-E, Ellis, E-L-L-I-S,
22 Samford, S-A-M-F-O-R-D. Right?
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.

24 THE COURT: If you will raise your
25 right hand, please.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1331

1 Do you solemnly swear or affirm you
2 will true answers make to all the questions propounded to
3 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
4 you God?
5
6 (Whereupon, the prospective

7 juror was duly sworn by the
8 Court to true answers make

9 to the questions propounded,
10 concerning qualifications, after
11 which time, the proceedings were
12 resumed as follows:)
13
14 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir, I
15 do.

16 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Samford,
17 the State is Texas is represented by Mr. Toby L. Shook.
18 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: Good morning.

19 THE COURT: And Ms. Sherri Wallace.
20 MS. SHERRI WALLACE: Good morning.
21 THE COURT: The defendant is Darlie
22 Routier in the burgundy dress to your right. She is
23 represented by Mr. Preston Douglass.

24 MR. PRESTON DOUGLASS: Good morning.
25 THE COURT: Please be seated.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1332

1 Who will go for the State? Mr. Shook?
2 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: I will, Judge.
3 THE COURT: All right.
4
5 Whereupon,
6
7 JIMMIE ELLIS SAMFORD,
8
9 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of

10 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
12 true, testified in open court, as follows:
13
14 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
15
16 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
17 Q. Mr. Samford, again, my name is Toby

18 Shook, I am one of the prosecutors, and I will be asking
19 you questions this morning.

20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Have you been down for jury service
22 before, Mr. Samford?
23 A. Yes, sir. It's been about a year and
24 a half ago or so.
25 Q. Okay. Did you serve on the jury? Did
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1333

1 you get picked?
2 A. Yes, sir, I did.
3 Q. You did? Do you remember what type of
4 case it was?
5 A. It was something about somebody at
6 school over at Center Point.

7 Q. Oh, yeah?
8 A. It was --
9 Q. Go ahead.

10 A. It was some things that happened on
11 the school ground.
12 Q. Was it a civil case? Were they

13 fighting over money? Or was it a criminal case?
14 A. It was not a criminal case.

15 Q. Okay. So it was -- what happened on
16 that case? How long were y'all out?
17 A. Just one day.
18 Q. Oh, a short trial?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Did y'all reach a verdict?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Do you remember what the verdict was?
23 A. He was found guilty, swearing against
24 this other person with a coach or something over there.
25 Q. Oh, okay. So they got in some kind of
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1334

1 argument or something like that?
2 A. Yes, sir. There were some words over
3 something there that happened on the school grounds.
4 Q. Okay. So you were just there one day?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay. This case -- you probably

7 remember when they picked the jury, they talked to
8 everyone in one big group?
9 A. Yes, sir. I do.
10 Q. We do it one at a time here because
11 it's a death penalty case, and the law claims that you
12 have got to talk to every juror one at time.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. We don't mean to make you feel like
15 you are on trial or anything like that.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. So, what we want you to do, Mr.
18 Samford, is just relax, and just answer our questions as
19 honestly as you can. Okay?
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And if you have got any questions of

22 us, you let us know, because we have got to go over a few
23 things that apply in this case. We're not trying to test
24 you or anything, we just want to see if you can follow
25 some of the laws that apply to this case. Okay?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1335

1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Let me ask you first, there are
3 obviously some Dallas lawyers involved. I don't think
4 you know any of them. Do you?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. There's a couple of local Kerrville
7 attorneys, Mr. Douglass here.

8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And Mr. Mosty. Remember Mr. Mosty?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Do you know either one of them?
12 A. No, sir, I do not.
13 Q. Okay. And it looks like, I think, you
14 were in highway construction for like 29 years?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And then now you work at the HEB?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. You have been doing that for a
19 couple of years?
20 A. Four years.

21 Q. Four years?
22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Okay. And you live at home with your
24 wife?
25 A. Yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1336

1 Q. She has you doing some stuff, too?
2 A. Well, just me and my wife and no kids.
3 Q. Okay. Let me ask you, Mr. Samford, as
4 you know, Judge Tolle has said that the defendant is
5 charged with capital murder, and the State is seeking the
6 death penalty. So we want to talk to every juror about
7 how they feel about the death penalty, just your personal
8 feelings.
9 Let me ask you this: Do you think
10 that it is a law that we should have in our state?
11 A. Yes, it should be.
12 Q. Okay. And tell me why you think we
13 should have -- certain crimes should call for the death
14 penalty?
15 A. Well, I don't know.
16 Q. You don't have to give me any long
17 answer.
18 A. Well, if a person does wrong, they
19 should be punished for the crime.
20 Q. Okay. In certain types of murder
21 cases, do you think the death penalty is the appropriate
22 punishment?
23 A. Yes, in some cases, yes.
24 Q. It just depends on the facts of the
25 case?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1337

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Okay. Let me kind of tell you how it
3 works in Texas because we have murder cases, and in some
4 murder cases we can seek the death penalty on, and some
5 we just go for prison time. It just depends on the type
6 of case it is.

7 Not everyone -- and when we're talking
8 about murder, we're talking the intentional killing of

9 another human being. Not every murder case is eligible
10 for the death penalty in Texas. What you have got to
11 have really is murder plus something else.
12 I'll give you a few examples: If

13 someone goes in and murders someone while they are
14 committing another felony, like you may have read about
15 the situation where a guy goes into a 7-Eleven and shoots
16 the clerk while he is robbing him?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Okay. That is a murder during a

19 robbery, that could be a death penalty-type case, you
20 know. Or a guy that goes in and kills a bank teller
21 while he is robbing the bank, that could be a death

22 penalty case, because it happens during another robbery.
23 Or if someone breaks in your house, if
24 someone kills you while they are breaking into your
25 house. Since they are breaking into your house, that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1338

1 could be a death penalty-type case. Those kind of
2 things. Also, if you murder someone for money, like a
3 hit man, you see on TV, those types of shows.
4 A. Yeah, some of the good stuff.
5 Q. Yeah, those could be those. Or
6 murdering a police officer while he is on duty can be a
7 hit man (sic) or mass murderer or something like that.
8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. Also, the Judge told you in this case
10 the defendant is charged with the crime of murdering a
11 child under the age of six. That type of murder can be a
12 death penalty case, depending on the facts.
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Now, I can't ask you for your verdict
15 because you have not heard from any of the witnesses, but
16 that type of case, the murder of a child under six, do
17 you think that is the type of case that could be eligible
18 for the death penalty?

19 A. I do.
20 Q. Okay. Let me ask you, Mr. Samford,
21 have you heard anything about this case on the radio or
22 on the TV?
23 A. No, sir. I haven't heard anything on
24 radio or TV.
25 Q. Okay. Haven't formed any opinions or
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1339

1 anything like that?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. Okay. Let me kind of go over with you
4 how the trial would work. It's divided into two parts:
5 There is the guilt/innocence stage, where we have to
6 prove where the crime occurred. Then we move -- and if
7 we don't do that, everyone goes home. Okay?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And if we do prove beyond a reasonable
10 doubt that it occurred, we move to the punishment stage
11 where you get some more questions.
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. In the punishment stage you hear

14 additional evidence. You can hear about a person's
15 background and things like that. Bad things, good

16 things. If they have a criminal history, for instance,
17 you can hear that.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. But at the end of that you will get
20 these questions. And I'll go over those in more detail
21 in a moment, but let me summarize those questions. The
22 first question is this: We have to prove that they will
23 be a future danger to society. Okay?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. If we do that, you answer "yes."
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1340

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. The last question is: Looking at all
3 of the evidence, if you think there is some -- what we

4 call mitigating evidence, in other words, evidence that
5 tells you in your heart that they should get a life
6 sentence rather than a death sentence, could you answer
7 the questions "yes" that way?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And prevent them from getting the
10 death penalty?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. But the point of it is this:
13 Depending on how the jury answers those questions, the
14 Judge would sentence the defendant to death or life.

15 Okay?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. If you give a "yes" and a "no" answer,
18 it equals death. If you answer it any other way, they
19 get a life sentence. But those are the only two possible
20 outcomes once a defendant has been found guilty, death
21 and life. Is that clear to you?
22 A. Yes, sir, that's clear.
23 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this Mr.
24 Samford, you said that you believe the death penalty is a
25 law we need to have?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1341

1 A. Yes, sir, it is.
2 Q. And is one that should, I guess, be
3 invoked in certain kind of cases.
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Okay. Do you think that you are the
6 type of juror that could sit on a jury and listen to the
7 evidence, and if we did prove these things to you, you
8 could answer the questions in a way that would result in
9 the defendant's death?
10 A. Yes, sir, I do.
11 Q. You could do that?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. If it's proven to you?

14 A. If it is proven to me.
15 Q. Okay. Are there any type of cases
16 that come to mind that you think -- you know, and we

17 talked about murder cases in general, but have you ever
18 seen any cases in the news where you say, "You know, that
19 is kind of a death penalty case."
20 A. Yes, at times. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Do you remember any by facts or
22 anything?
23
24 THE COURT: Mr. Samford, this is
25 Curtis Glover, another one of Mrs. Routier's defense
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1342

1 attorneys.
2 MR. CURTIS GLOVER: Good morning. How
3 are you?
4 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay, sir.
5
6 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
7 Q. Okay. Anything come to mind at all?
8 Any cases you followed in the news? Of course, the only
9 one that has been in the news lately is that O.J. Simpson
10 case.
11 A. Yes, it's been a nightmare.
12 Q. It has.
13 A. Yes, sir, it has.
14 Q. Do you have any opinions about that
15 case, how that turned out the first time?

16 A. No, I don't guess so.
17 Q. Okay. This first question that we
18 have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, I'm going to

19 read that question and if you will just follow along with
20 me. It asks: "Do you find from the evidence beyond a

21 reasonable doubt that there is a probability that the
22 defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that
23 would constitute a continuing threat to society?"

24 Summarizing again, that is asking the
25 jurors: Do you think that the defendant is going to be a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1343

1 danger to society in the future?
2 We have to prove that from the facts
3 of the case, the murder itself, and any other evidence
4 you may have heard about the background.

5 Do you think, Mr. Samford, that if we
6 gave you enough evidence you could answer that question
7 correctly? I mean, "yes."
8 A. Yes, sir, I could I guess.
9 Q. Okay. Now, would the facts of the

10 offense itself, how the murder occurred, would that be
11 important to you in answering a question like that?
12 A. Well, I don't guess so.
13 Q. Okay. What about details about
14 whether there -- you know, there was much time thinking
15 about the killing, how cruel and brutal it was, those
16 kinds of things.
17 Was there any -- did they show any
18 remorse that they were sorry for it in any way? Would

19 that be important to you? Would that let you know about
20 what kind of person they are, in other words?
21 A. I don't think so.
22 Q. Okay. Why wouldn't that be important
23 to you? How they actually committed the murder.
24 A. Well, I don't know. It all depends on
25 what the circumstances, I guess, of how it was committed.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1344

1 Q. Okay. About how it was committed?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. And the thing is, Mr. Samford,
4 we can't tell you what we think the facts will be. So,
5 we kind of -- that is what makes this kind of interview
6 hard. Because we can't preview the facts for you, kind
7 of like they do in the movies or anything.
8 A. No.
9 Q. But do you think the facts might be
10 important just depending on what they are?
11 A. Yes, they would be.
12 Q. Okay. Are you aware of the method of
13 execution in Texas, Mr. Samford?
14 A. Yes, I am.

15 Q. What is your understanding on how they
16 take place now?
17 A. Well, it's with injection, I guess.
18 Q. Right, lethal injection. It used to
19 be by the electric chair.
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And now they do it by lethal
22 injection.
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And, you know, I think probably from
25 watching TV, that executions actually do take place in
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1345

1 Texas; is that right?
2 A. Yes, sir, they do.
3 Q. Okay. And my point is this, Mr.
4 Samford, it is a very real thing. You know, there are
5 some states out there that have the death penalty law?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. But they never actually impose it.
8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. They just have it, I guess, for show,
10 I don't know, but no one has ever been executed. In
11 Texas it has been.
12 A. Yes, it has.
13 Q. There have been over 100 executions in
14 Texas in the last -- about 15 years or so.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. And, as you know, the method of
17 execution is by lethal injection.
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. I don't know if those executions that
20 you have ever read, how they are actually described, but,
21 you know, there are witnesses there.
22 A. Yes, sir, there are.
23 Q. It takes place in Huntsville, Texas.
24 They are strapped down on a hospital gurney and a needle
25 is put in their arm and a poison is injected into them.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1346

1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Are you telling me that you think you
3 could take part in this process if the case is proven to
4 you?
5 A. I guess so.
6 Q. Okay. What about the fact that the
7 defendant in this case is a woman? Does that make any
8 difference to you?
9 A. No, not at all.
10 Q. Do you think it should apply equally?
11 A. Yes, sir, it does.
12 Q. Okay. Judge Tolle went over a few

13 rules that apply to all cases. You have probably heard
14 of these: The presumption of innocence.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. The defendant has to be presumed to be
17 innocent at the beginning of the trial. Could you follow
18 that rule?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Okay. The defendant has a right not
21 to testify. You know, if they want to get up there and
22 testify as a witness on their own behalf, they can. No
23 one could stop them.
24 But if they choose not to, you can't
25 hold it against them as a juror. You can't use that as
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1347

1 evidence against them. Can you follow that rule of law?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Okay. Also, the State has the burden
4 of proof, we have to prove the case beyond a reasonable
5 doubt. They don't have to prove anything to you. You

6 have to require the State to prove this to you beyond a
7 reasonable doubt. Can you follow that rule?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Okay. Mr. Samford, in your work
10 experience, did you -- or just your life experience, have
11 you ever seen any violent crimes, personally been a
12 witness to that, or been a victim of it?
13 A. No, sir, I have not.
14 Q. Okay. And I think you grew up in this
15 area of the country, right, Burnet?
16 A. Yes, about 80 miles northeast of here.
17 Q. Okay. Oh, this last question, this is
18 the last area I would like to get into. It's what we
19 call the mitigating question.

20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And they won't give you a definition
22 of what mitigating evidence is, sometimes I don't know
23 what they mean by mitigating. But all it means is, you
24 know, by the time you have reached that question, you
25 have already found the defendant guilty of capital
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1348

1 murder.
2 And you have already found that they
3 are going to be a future danger. Okay? So it's looking
4 pretty bad for them, they are a bad person.
5 But the situation is this: The law
6 says that if you see any evidence in their background
7 that you think in your heart and mind believe that they
8 should get a life sentence rather than a death sentence,
9 you could answer the question that way. It's kind of a
10 way out for the jury to show some mercy.
11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. I mean, they don't get off, they still
13 have to do a life sentence. You understand where they
14 are coming from?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Okay. And whatever is mitigating is
17 going to be up to you. Okay?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. You don't have to agree with the other
20 jurors at all, it's just a decision you have to make.

21 Let me give you a couple of examples: Let's say if you
22 had a capital murder defendant that had a degree from
23 Harvard, let's say, and he is a doctor.
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Some people would say, "Well, that
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1349

1 could be mitigating. That is good and it works in his
2 favor. Because he is real smart and has done something

3 good with his life." Other people will say, "No, that is
4 wrong. Someone that smart should not do this kind of
5 thing."
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. So you can see where it works both
8 ways?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Okay. Some people tell us, well, here
11 is an example: If you ever commit a murder, if -- let's
12 say, you go out and get drunk or you do drugs, and I mean
13 intentionally, in Texas, that is not a defense. You are
14 still held liable, you know.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. You are still held accountable.
17 However, sometimes people think that
18 should be mitigating in some way, should lessen a
19 person's blameworthiness. Other people say, "Actually,
20 no. You should hold it against them even more." How do
21 you feel about that?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Does that strike you one way or the
24 other at all?
25 A. Not really.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1350

1 Q. Okay.
2 A. I guess a person should be held
3 accountable for what he does.
4 Q. Okay. Mr. Samford, I went over the
5 different types of crimes that could get the death
6 penalty in Texas. We talked about murder of a police
7 officer, murder during a robbery, things like that.
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And in this particular case, murder of
10 a child under the age of six.
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Some people -- I mean, let me ask you
13 how you feel about that: Do you think that is the type
14 of crime that should be eligible for the death penalty?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Because there are just our children as
17 victims?
18 A. Yes, sir, I do.
19 Q. Okay. Do you think you can keep an
20 open mind and wait until all of the evidence is in before
21 these decisions are made?
22 A. Yes, sir, I do.
23 Q. Okay. Well, I appreciate your
24 patience with me.
25 A. Okay.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1351

1 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
2
3 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
4 Q. Mr. Samford, my name is -- excuse me,
5 I'm sorry, your Honor. Thank you.
6
7 THE COURT: That is quite all right.
8
9 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
10 Q. Mr. Samford, my name is Preston
11 Douglass, the Judge introduced me a minute ago.
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. One thing, and I know you don't
14 remember me, but I just want to make sure that if it is
15 something that comes up, you and I have talked about, so
16 no one thinks that I forgot to say something I should
17 have said.
18 Do you remember testifying in a trial
19 not too long ago about something to do with your work at
20 HEB? It may have been a year or two ago, and I think it
21 was in the municipal court.
22 A. Oh, yeah, I remember that.
23 Q. Do you remember that?
24 A. Oh, yeah. Yes, sir. I sure do. It's
25 been a while ago.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1352

1 Q. And it may have been longer than a
2 couple years ago. It was when I was city attorney, and I
3 can't remember --
4 A. Oh, yeah. Okay. About the old
5 fellow, yes, sir.
6 Q. Well, I can't -- I remember reading

7 your questionnaire, Mr. Samford, and I can't remember
8 what it was about. Do you remember what it was about?

9 A. About a customer coming in there. It
10 was --
11 Q. Oh, it was the guy that cussed
12 everybody out.
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Okay. All right.
15 A. I forgot about that.
16 Q. It was a major crime.
17 A. I'm sorry about that. I forgot about
18 that.
19
20 THE COURT: That occurred in Kerr
21 County?
22 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Yes,

23 sir, it occurred in Kerr County. One of the few rude
24 people we have here.
25
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1353

1 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
2 Q. I was involved in that when I did some
3 work for the city, but you don't remember me at all from
4 then?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. I am pretty forgettable.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Okay. All right. But if it's --
9 there is nothing obviously. If you snap and remember
10 that I was involved in that thing, that won't cause you
11 any problem?
12 A. Okay. No, I don't care. I had forgot
13 about that thing, it's been a good long while back.
14 Q. Obviously, in representing our client,
15 we have a different perspective than the State does.
16 They are here to see that -- they have an objective and
17 they have a result that they want to obtain. And,
18 obviously, we, representing Darlie Routier, have a much
19 different objective. We have a different goal.
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And I know you have been up there a

22 little bit, but I want to talk to you for a little bit
23 about our perspective.

24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Mr. Shook said correctly that there is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1354

1 often two phases of a trial. There's often -- there is
2 always a guilt/innocence phase.
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Where you decide whether or not a

5 person did what they said he did. And, then, if you
6 think the person is guilty, then there is a punishment
7 phase, but there is not always a punishment phase.
8 You -- obviously, if someone decides that -- if the jury
9 decides that the person is not guilty, you don't ever
10 talk about punishment.
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. We anticipate that we're not going to
13 be talking about punishment. That there is just going to
14 be the guilt/innocence phase. And I want to talk to you
15 a little bit first about the law in the guilt/innocence
16 phase. Okay?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. If I get going too fast or something,
19 just stop me and make me repeat myself, because I can be
20 confusing.
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. You understand that Darlie Routier, as
23 she sits here, is presumed and is not guilty?
24 A. Yes, sir, at the time.
25 Q. Right, right now.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1355

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. They have not proved a single thing.
3 Do you agree with that?
4 A. Right. As far as I know, nothing has
5 been proven.
6 Q. Now, there has been what is called an
7 indictment, and that is a piece of paper that lets the
8 Judge have a trial.
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. That indictment is merely what the

11 State -- what the people representing the State believe
12 they can prove.
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. But that doesn't mean that she has
15 done anything. Do you agree with that?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay. There's -- some people use a
18 phrase and say, "That the people who do the accusing,
19 have to do the proving." Meaning: They say she did

20 something, so they have got to prove it.
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Does that sound fair to you?
23 A. Yes, sir, it does.
24 Q. Now, in a trial, it may come along
25 that they do some proving, but they have not satisfied to
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1356

1 Jimmie Samford that they have proven anything.
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. They may have tried to say -- let me
4 give you an example: They may try to say that this crime
5 occurred a certain way. That a person was killed, maybe
6 hit in the head with a baseball bat or something.
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. But, actually, you find out, that it's
9 not even the same -- they haven't even proven that the

10 person they say did it, did it. What do you think ought
11 to happen if they don't prove their case?
12 A. If they don't prove the case, I guess
13 the person will go free.
14 Q. Right. How do you feel about that?
15 A. Well, that is the law. I guess that
16 would be all right.
17 Q. Is that a law you follow? Do you
18 believe that?
19 A. If it cannot be proven, yes, sir.

20 Q. Now, you as a juror, would take an
21 oath. And you took an oath in that other case.
22 A. I did.
23 Q. Do you remember that?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. And you take an oath and that oath --
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1357

1 part of that oath is that you are going to follow the
2 law, and that is that you would hold these guys to their
3 burden of proof. That you make them prove their case?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay. Would you do that if you take
6 that oath?
7 A. They need to prove it.
8 Q. Right. Now, taking that one step

9 further, Mr. Samford, there is no obligation on the
10 attorneys representing the defendant to put on any case
11 at all. We don't have to put on any evidence. If we
12 believe that they have not proven their case. Now, if

13 you get in a trial, and you have not -- and you hear one
14 side of the story --
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. -- but the defendant doesn't put on
17 any evidence --
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. -- we don't have to. Do you agree
20 with that?
21 A. Well, it should be proven, I guess.
22 Q. Okay. I was looking at your
23 questionnaire and there was one question in there that
24 you answered that said that you were not sure if a
25 defendant would have to prove that he or she is innocent.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1358

1 The way our law works is that we don't
2 have to bring you proof that someone is innocent or not
3 guilty. The burden is on them, and there is no burden on
4 the State (sic) to prove someone's innocence. Do you
5 agree with that?
6
7 THE COURT: I think you said that
8 wrong -- there is no burden on the defense.
9 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Yeah,

10 I'm sorry. There is no burden on the defense to prove
11 that a client or the person charged is not guilty.
12 THE COURT: Clear that up. The State
13 has to prove her guilty. The defendant -- the defense
14 does not have to prove her innocence. If they can't

15 prove her guilt, she goes free. Do you understand that?
16 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
17 THE COURT: And they don't have to do
18 one thing. Do you understand that?
19 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I just wanted to
21 clear that part up.
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
23 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.: Thank
24 you, Your Honor.
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1359

1 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
2 Q. So if the defendant decides not to put
3 on any evidence, you understand that that is the
4 defendant's right?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay. Likewise, a defendant does not
7 have to come and sit in that chair you are sitting in and
8 testify. They can if they want to, but they don't have
9 to tell anything.
10 A. I see. Okay.
11 Q. They can't be forced to testify.
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Some people don't testify because they
14 are afraid they are going to be so nervous that they will
15 be confused.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Some people may not testify because

18 their lawyers will say, "They haven't proven a thing.
19 There is no reason for you to testify. They have not
20 proven anything."
21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. Meaning the State. Do you agree that
23 a person who is accused of a crime should not have to
24 testify?
25 A. I believe they should testify.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1360

1 Q. Should or should not?
2 A. Should.
3 Q. Okay. If you are listening to a
4 trial --
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. -- and the Judge tells you that it is
7 the law, that the person accused does not have to take
8 the stand, does not have to say anything --
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. -- can you follow that law? Can you
11 put that aside?
12 A. Well, I will have to, yes. I would
13 have to.
14 Q. Okay. What really becomes important
15 about that, Mr. Samford, is if you have heard the State
16 put on evidence --
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. -- and you have not heard anything
19 from the defendant, can you judge the evidence as a juror
20 only on what the State has put on? Only the evidence
21 they have brought to you. Can you judge it only on that
22 evidence?
23 A. I guess so. Yes, sir.
24 Q. In a trial, this side has to bring the
25 State, the lawyers representing the State, have to bring
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1361

1 evidence to prove someone guilty. Do you agree with me
2 on that?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. All right. And in the course of the
5 trial, you, as a juror, have the ability to sit and
6 listen to that evidence and say, "That evidence proves
7 something to me," or "That evidence doesn't prove
8 anything."
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Do you -- when you were in a trial
11 over in the Center Point case, was that up at the
12 courthouse at the Kerr County Courthouse?
13 A. Yes, sir, it was.
14 Q. All right. Was that that trial about
15 two coaches that got in a fight right out in the middle
16 of the field?
17 A. Only one, only one was a coach.
18 Q. Okay. So it was a coach that got in a
19 fight with another person. Right?
20 A. No, there was some -- I don't think it
21 was a fight. I think it was just some words.
22 Q. Okay. Was there anything about that
23 trial that you remember? Or anything about being a juror
24 that you didn't like?
25 A. No, I don't think so.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1362

1 Q. Did you like being a juror?
2 A. Well, it's hard to prosecute somebody,
3 yes.
4 Q. It's hard work, right?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Now, when you say it's hard to
7 prosecute somebody, you understand that as a defendant
8 sits on trial, they have the absolute right to be
9 presumed innocent?
10 A. Yes, sir, they do.
11 Q. All right. And you are not going
12 to -- and really, what is more important about that is
13 that you not believe someone is guilty just because they
14 are having a trial.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Do you feel like that because there is
17 a trial that you can say, "I am not going to believe that
18 person did anything until they prove it"?
19 A. They need to prove it to me.
20 Q. Okay. And who do you believe are the
21 ones that need to prove the case?
22 A. Well, I guess the State would need to
23 prove it.
24 Q. Okay. Great. In a trial they have to
25 prove their case, there is a level that they have to
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1363

1 prove their case to. And you have probably heard the
2 term "reasonable doubt"?
3 A. Yes, sir, I have.
4 Q. Okay. And reasonable doubt means that
5 if you come along during the trial, and you believe you
6 have a doubt about the case, and that doubt is based on
7 what you think is a reasoned doubt, you think to
8 yourself, I have thought this thing through, and I
9 believe that there are questions in my mind. If you have
10 a question in your mind about an outcome about whether or
11 not the State has proven its case, what do you believe
12 it's your obligation to do?
13 A. Well --
14 Q. If you are sitting there and you hear
15 the evidence --
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. -- and you think, I have a doubt about
18 whether they have proven their case, the State. In that
19 situation, what do you believe the result is supposed to
20 be?
21 A. Well, I think -- I don't know myself.
22 Q. All right. I'm saying -- I am
23 confusing you on that.
24 A. Yes, I think so.
25 Q. Let's say we were in a trial in a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1364

1 make-believe situation.
2 A. Okay.

3 Q. And you hear a police officer come
4 testify.
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. The police officer says, "I believe
7 that the person who is sitting over there, the defendant,
8 did this. And let me tell you why." And the police
9 officer gives three reasons they think the person
10 committed the crime.
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. But to you it doesn't make sense, it
13 doesn't add up. So you have a reasonable doubt in your
14 mind.
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. If you have a reasonable doubt in your
17 mind about what is being told to you, do you agree that
18 the law says that you have to say not guilty?
19 A. Well, I guess not.
20 Q. Okay.
21
22 THE COURT: I don't think he
23 understands the question.
24 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I don't
25 understand.
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1365

1 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
2 Q. Let me try it one other way. And I am
3 the one confusing you, and I understand that. Reasonable
4 doubt --
5
6 THE COURT: Sir, I know you are a
7 little nervous.
8 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, I am.
9 THE COURT: I can tell that by your
10 voice. All you do -- there are no right or wrong answers
11 here, there is not going to be a test. You can be a
12 member of the Flat Earth Society, nobody is going to
13 disagree with you.
14 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: So, just relax and answer
16 the questions. Nobody is trying to trick you.
17 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: All right.
18
19 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
20 Q. If you are a juror --
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. -- you have to decide, did they prove
23 their case?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. You have to say, "Well, the Judge told
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1366

1 me, they are the ones that have to prove their case."
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Did they prove their case? If you
4 have a reasonable doubt --
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. -- if you think, I don't think they
7 proved it.
8 A. No.
9 Q. What do you believe happens when they
10 don't prove their case?
11 A. Well --
12 Q. If they don't prove their case, do you
13 believe that the person goes free? Or, if they prove
14 their case, do you think they go to jail?
15 A. If they prove their case, they go to
16 jail.
17 Q. Okay. What happens if they don't
18 prove their case?
19 A. The person will go free.
20 Q. Okay. Now, do you agree with that?
21 That if they don't prove what they say they are going to
22 prove --
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. -- that the person should go free?
25 A. If they can't prove it, yes, sir, they
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1367

1 go free.
2 Q. Do you agree with that?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. All right. I want to ask you a little
5 bit about police officers. I believe that there will be
6 a number of police officers testify.
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Can you listen to a police officer's

9 testimony, and as a juror, judge it just like any other
10 person?
11 A. Yes, sir, I think so.
12 Q. Okay. By that I mean, would you tend
13 to believe or put more weight on a police officer's
14 testimony, or do you judge it just like everybody else?
15 A. Weigh what the policeman says?

16 Q. Okay. Hold on one second here.
17
18 THE COURT: You need to clarify that a
19 little bit.
20 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Can I
21 approach the bench, your Honor?
22 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
23
24 (Whereupon, a short
25 Discussion was held
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1368

1 Off the record, after
2 Which time the
3 Proceedings were resumed
4 As follows:)
5
6 THE COURT: All right. Sir, I know
7 are nervous this morning.
8 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.

9 THE COURT: You are not going to
10 believe -- you can't believe anybody just because of who
11 they are.
12 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
13 THE COURT: Now, if a police officer
14 gets up here and testifies, you have got to decide, does
15 his testimony -- does that comport with reality as I know
16 it? You are not going to believe him just because he is
17 a police officer, are you?
18 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: No, sir.
19 THE COURT: All right. Now, can you
20 listen to the testimony from both sides? If you don't
21 think Mr. Shook has proven his case, you can find her not
22 guilty. Is that a fair statement?
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
24 THE COURT: And she doesn't have to do
25 one thing other than just sit there the whole trial. You
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1369

1 understand that?
2 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
3 THE COURT: That is her right under
4 the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of the United

5 States. That is yours also, if you were ever on trial,
6 you can do that.
7 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir.
8 THE COURT: And you can put aside any
9 belief you may have, pro or con, or anything, and follow
10 the law. Is that a fair statement?
11 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I will.
14 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else you
15 want to ask?
16 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Yes,
17 just a few things.
18 THE COURT: Sure. Go ahead.
19 I know you are nervous this morning.
20 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, I am.

21 THE COURT: I can tell you are
22 nervous.
23 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Yes, sir, I
24 am.
25 THE COURT: But just calm down.
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1370

1 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Okay.
2
3 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
4 Q. So, Mr. Samford, if I understand
5 right, if she doesn't -- if a defendant in a case
6 decides, either because the lawyers tell the person to or
7 because they just decide they are too nervous, if that
8 person decides they are not going to testify, are you
9 going to hold it against that person?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. You understand that is their right?
12 A. Yes, sir, that is their right.
13 Q. Okay. I want to ask you a little bit
14 about the death penalty. I don't like to talk about this
15 part of it, because that is a part of the trial that we
16 are expecting not to get to.

17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. But I want to ask you: Have you
19 always felt in favor of the death penalty?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Do you feel like if a person is
22 charged with capital murder --

23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. -- and then is found guilty of capital
25 murder --
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1371

1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. -- do you believe that means that they
3 automatically get the death penalty? Or do you believe
4 that you could consider a life sentence?
5 A. Well, I guess a life sentence.
6 Q. You could consider that?

7 A. Yes, I could consider it.
8 Q. All right. I noticed in your
9 questionnaire that you put down that you feel like the
10 death penalty -- you made a statement about the death
11 penalty. I want to ask you if this is the way you feel

12 about it now. You said that, "Although I do not believe
13 that the death penalty ever ought to be invoked, as long
14 as the law provides for it, I could assess the death
15 penalty under proper circumstances."

16 A. Yes, sir, I could.
17 Q. Let me break that down in parts. Do
18 you agree with the statement that you don't think the
19 death penalty ought to be invoked?

20 A. It should be.
21 Q. Okay. Do you think it should be
22 invoked all the time or under proper circumstances?

23 A. Proper circumstances, yes, of course.
24 Q. Okay.
25
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1372

1 THE COURT: Anything else?
2 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: Hold on
3 one second.
4
5 BY MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR:
6 Q. Mr. Samford, thank you very much.
7 A. Okay.
8
9 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: I don't
10 have any further questions.
11 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I am pretty
12 nervous.
13 THE COURT: Can you step outside just
14 a minute, please, sir. Don't go away yet. We will be
15 calling you back in a minute.
16 Just for the record, are you any
17 relation to Charles Samford?
18 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I guess not.
19 Samford, right?
20 THE COURT: Just a cousin someplace,
21 but you don't know him. Right?
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: No, sir, I
23 didn't know him until I moved here.
24 THE COURT: Thank you very much. All
25 right.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

1373

1 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Thank you.
2
3 (Whereupon, the prospective

4 juror was excused from the
5 room, and the following

6 proceedings were held,
7 outside of his presence
8 as follows:)
9
10 THE COURT: All right.
11
12 (Whereupon, a short

13 Discussion was held
14 Off the record, after
15 Which time the

16 Proceedings were resumed
17 as follows:)
18
19 THE COURT: All right. What says the
20 State?
21 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: The State accepts
22 the juror.
23 THE COURT: What says the defense?
24 MR. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR: We would
25 accept the juror.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1374

1 THE COURT: Thank you. Bring in Mr.
2 Samford.
3 Mr. Samford, I have some good news for
4 you, you have been accepted as a juror in this case.
5 THE JUROR: Oh, I have been accepted,
6 huh?
7 THE COURT: Yes, that's right, quality
8 and talent shows. This trial is not going to start until
9 the 6th of January.
10 THE JUROR: Okay, sir.
11 THE COURT: So, if you could just

12 remember between now and then, just don't speak about
13 anything to anybody about the trial. When you leave
14 today if somebody asks you what happened, then you can
15 just tell them they asked you some questions.
16 THE JUROR: Yes, sir.

17 THE COURT: And don't talk about the
18 trial with anybody. If you see anything in the paper, on
19 TV, or hear it on the radio, just ignore it. Fair
20 enough?
21 THE JUROR: Yes, sir, it is.
22 THE COURT: And just be back -- we
23 will be calling you.
24 Mr. Navarre, you will be calling them
25 after the first of the year telling them when and where
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
1375

1 to come.
2 We will be having it in the courthouse
3 down here. People have accused me of wanting to have it
4 here, but that is just a bald-faced rumor. We are not
5 going to have it here, we are going to have it down at
6 the courthouse.
7 THE JUROR: Okay, sir.
8 THE COURT: So, we will see you then.
9 Here's two things I have to tell you: There is gag order
10 on it, so don't talk about it. I can impose monetary
11 sanctions or jail time. I'm not trying to threaten you,
12 but I have to tell you. Okay?
13 THE JUROR: Yes, sir.
14 THE COURT: Fair enough? So we will
15 see you on the 6th.
16 THE JUROR: Okay, sir.

17 THE COURT: Good luck.
18 THE JUROR: You bet.

19 THE COURT: Thank you. All right.
20 Who is the next one?
21 Your name, sir?
22 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: Kody Bradshaw.
23 THE COURT: Okay. All right. This is
24 112, ladies and gentlemen, on the jury