Volume 15

1 IN THE CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT NO. 3
2 DALLAS COUNTY, TEXAS
3
4
5
6 THE STATE OF TEXAS } NO. F-96-39973-J
7 VS: } & A-96-253
8 DARLIE LYNN ROUTIER } Kerr Co. Number
9
10
11
12
13 STATEMENT OF FACTS
14 JURY VOIR DIRE
15 INDIVIDUAL JURORS HEARING
16 VOL. 15 OF VOLS.
17 October 31, 1996
18 Thursday
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
948

1 C A P T I O N
2
3
4 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on Thursday, the 31st day of
5 October, 1996, in the Criminal District Court Number 3 of
6 Dallas County, Texas, the above-styled cause came on for
7 a hearing before the Hon. Mark Tolle, Judge of the
8 Criminal District Court No. 3, of Dallas County, Texas,
9 without a jury, and the proceedings were held, in open
10 court, in the City of Kerrville, Kerr County Courthouse,
11 Kerr County, Texas, and the proceedings were had as
12 follows:
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
949

1 A P P E A R A N C E S
2
3
4 HON. JOHN VANCE
5 Criminal District Attorney
6 Dallas County, Texas
7
8 BY: HON. TOBY L. SHOOK
9 Assistant District Attorney
10 Dallas County, Texas
11
12 AND:
13 HON. JOHN GRAU
14 Assistant District Attorney
15 Dallas County, Texas
16
17 AND:
18 HON. SHERRI WALLACE
19 Assistant District Attorney
20 Dallas County, Texas
21
22 APPEARING FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS
23
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
950

1 ADDITIONAL APPEARANCES:
2
3 HON. DOUGLAS D. MULDER
4 Attorney at Law
5 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
6 717 N. Harwood
7 Dallas, TX 75201
8
9 AND: HON. CURTIS GLOVER
10 Attorney at Law
11 2650 Maxus Energy Tower
12 717 N. Harwood

13 Dallas, TX 75201
14
15 AND: HON. RICHARD C. MOSTY
16 Attorney at Law
17 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
18 820 Main Street, Suite 200
19 Kerrville, TX 78028
20
21 AND: HON. S. PRESTON DOUGLASS, JR.
22 Attorney at Law
23 Wallace, Mosty, Machann, Jackson & Williams
24 820 Main Street, Suite 200
25 Kerrville, TX 78028
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
951

1
2 AND: HON. JOHN HAGLER
3 Attorney at Law

4 901 Main Street, Suite 3601
5 Dallas, TX 75202
6 ALL ATTORNEYS REPRESENTING THE
7 DEFENDANT: DARLIE ROUTIER
8 MR. HAGLER HANDLING THE APPEAL
9 AND:
10 HON. ALBERT D. PATILLO, III
11 Attorney at Law
12 820 Main Street, Suite 211
13 Kerrville, TX 78028
14 APPEARING FOR: Witness-
15 Detective Jimmy Patterson

16 only on one date in trial
17 AND:
18 HON. STEVEN J. PICKELL
19 Attorney at Law
20 620 Earl Garrett Street
21 Kerrville, TX 78028
22 APPEARING FOR: Witness

23 Officer Chris Frosch
24 only on one date in trial
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
952

1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2
3 October 31st, 1996
4 Thursday
5 8:25 a.m.
6
7 (Whereupon, the following

8 proceedings were held in
9 open court, in the presence
10 and hearing of the

11 defendant, being
12 represented by her attorneys,
13 and the representatives of
14 the State of Texas,
15 as follows:)
16
17 THE COURT: All right. Let's go back
18 on the record in the Darlie Routier case.
19 Ms. Huckobey, come on up here, please,
20 ma'am. If you will be kind enough to have a seat here.
21 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: All right.
22 THE COURT: Ma'am, raise your right
23 hand.
24 Do you solemnly swear or affirm you
25 will true answers make to all the questions propounded to
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953

1 you concerning your qualifications as a juror, so help
2 you God?
3 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I do.
4
5 (Whereupon, the prospective

6 juror was duly sworn by the
7 Court to true answers make

8 to the questions propounded,
9 concerning qualifications, after
10 which time, the proceedings were
11 resumed as follows:)
12
13 THE COURT: Thank you.
14 Ms. Huckobey, we have the State of

15 Texas today represented by Mr. Toby Shook and Ms. Sherri
16 Wallace from the Dallas County District Attorney's
17 Office.
18 The defense is represented by Mr.

19 Douglas Mulder and Mr. Richard Mosty. And, of course,
20 this is the defendant, Darlie Routier, sitting over here
21 to your far right.
22 All right. Mr. Shook.
23 MR. TOBY SHOOK: Thank you, Judge.
24
25
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
954

1 Whereupon,
2
3 SUSAN ROBERTA HUCKOBEY,
4
5 was called as a prospective juror, for the purpose of
6 voir dire, having been first duly sworn by the Court to
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
8 true, testified in open court, as follows:
9
10 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
11
12 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
13 Q. Ms. Huckobey, again, my name is Toby
14 Shook. I'm one of the Assistant District Attorneys in
15 the case, and I will be asking you questions on behalf
16 of the State today. All right?
17 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
18 affirmatively.)
19 Q. I want to thank you for providing us
20 with a lot of information on your questionnaire and
21 filling that out. It has been very helpful.

22 Let me ask you: Has anything changed,
23 any more information or anything important come up within
24 the last two days?
25 A. No. There's -- the question about,
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955

1 "If you could pronounce the death penalty," I did answer
2 that "yes," but I don't want to. I don't want to live
3 with that.
4 Q. Well, actually, I think you may have
5 answered it two ways. Another part of the questionnaire,
6 you said that you couldn't do that.
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Okay. Well, that is what we want to
9 talk about a lot today.
10 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
11 affirmatively.)
12 Q. Ms. Huckobey, what we are looking for
13 are just your honest answers, and no one knows yourself,
14 obviously, better than yourself.
15 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
16 affirmatively.)
17 Q. We call a lot of people down and get
18 all kinds of folks down here on any of these cases. Have
19 you ever served on a jury before?
20 A. No, sir, I have not.
21 Q. Have you ever been called down before?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Okay. Usually we talk to jurors in
24 one great big panel. But since this is a death penalty
25 case, the law requires us to talk to each and every one
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956

1 individually. People feel strongly one way or the other
2 about this issue, so we want to be sure to air it out
3 very carefully.
4 Like I said, there are no right or
5 wrong answers, just your honest opinion. We're not down
6 here giving you a test for good citizenship, and we don't
7 want jurors that will just answer questions the way they
8 think the lawyers want them answered. You know what I am
9 saying?
10 Sometimes we get jurors who will
11 answer questions one way on one side, and will give the
12 exact opposite answers to the other lawyer. Okay?
13 A. I understand.
14 Q. All right. Like I said, we get all

15 kinds of folks down here. Some people are qualified to
16 sit on some types of cases, and not qualified to sit on
17 other types of cases.
18 A couple of examples: Sometimes we
19 will have a DWI case, and someone may have had a loved

20 one killed in a DWI-type accident. They will say, "Look,
21 if it was any other type of case, I could sit and listen
22 to the evidence. But I have had this experience in my
23 life and I feel this way. I am so much against drinking,
24 I couldn't be fair in this case." That is fine, if they
25 feel that way.
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957

1 We have had other people that may have
2 had a bad experience with a police officer, or maybe one
3 of their family members has. And if they know a certain
4 agency is going to be involved, they will say, "I just

5 couldn't listen to the evidence fairly that way." Or
6 maybe they have been a victim of a violent crime, and
7 they just couldn't sit and be fair to the defendant in
8 that way. So it cuts both ways. You understand?

9 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
10 affirmatively.)
11 Q. The bottom line is, obviously, the
12 State is seeking the death penalty in this case. That is
13 our goal. That is what we want to prove to the jury.
14 And so, we ask each and every juror about their feelings
15 about the death penalty.
16 The first question we had on here, we
17 said: "Are you in favor of the death penalty?" And you
18 said, "No." And then you wrote in, "Do not feel this
19 should be man's decision to end a life."
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. And later on you said that you had a
22 moral, religious, and personal belief that would prevent
23 you from returning a verdict that would result in the
24 execution of a woman.
25 A. Yes, sir, or a man.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
958

1 Q. Or a man? Okay.
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Just a human being?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Okay. And that's fine. And I wish we
6 could just let you go because you checked yours off, but
7 the law requires us to inquire into these details a
8 little more. Okay?
9 A. All right.
10 Q. So if you will, just bear with me?
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Tell us in your own words why you feel
13 you couldn't do that, and your opposition to the death
14 penalty as a law. Why do you feel that way?
15 A. You noticed that I am registered
16 nurse?
17 Q. Yes, ma'am.
18 A. So, I have spent my whole adult life
19 preserving life.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. And I do believe in that. Morally, I
22 do not participate in abortions, for the same reason. I
23 made that decision over 30 years ago. It's just
24 something you cannot undo. Okay? Twenty years from now,
25 you can't say, "Gee, I'm sorry, we made a mistake," and
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
959

1 undo that. And I just think that only really the Lord
2 can decide when life ends.
3 Q. Okay. And how long have you felt this
4 way?
5 A. Many years.
6 Q. Okay. So, this is not something you
7 just came up with?
8 A. No, not at all.
9 Q. Okay. And it's something you have
10 given some thought to, I take it?

11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. And something --
13 A. Especially since I found out about
14 this particular case.
15 Q. Sure. You have thought about it more
16 over the last ten days?

17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And, are you positive of the
19 way you feel about it?
20 A. I am very positive.
21 Q. Okay. Would it be safe to say you
22 have a deep conviction about the way you feel?

23 A. It would be very safe to say.
24 Q. Okay. The same way you feel about not
25 participating in abortions?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
960

1 A. Exactly.
2 Q. Okay. And, again, I appreciate your
3 honesty, and I hear what you are saying. But the law
4 requires me to go into a little further detail with you
5 though. Okay?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. So I'm not arguing with you, and I
8 just want you to bear with me. Okay?
9 A. All right.
10 Q. Okay. In a death penalty case, like
11 this one, and we can't get into the facts or anything

12 like this, but the procedure is this: The first part of
13 the trial, we have to prove whether the defendant

14 committed the crime or not. It is a fact question:
15 Guilt or innocence. The Judge told you about the

16 indictment in the case. That is what we have to prove.
17 If we prove that to a jury, they would return a verdict
18 of guilty.
19 We then move to the punishment stage,
20 where you might hear additional evidence about
21 background, and things like that. But at the close of
22 that, you will get these questions.
23 That first question, if you would just
24 read that real quickly to yourself.
25 A. Okay.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
961

1 Q. Okay. That asks the jury to make a
2 decision as to whether we have proven they would be a
3 future danger. Do you understand that?
4 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
5 affirmatively.)
6 Q. Okay. It's another fact question.
7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This last question is a little longer,
9 if you would just take a moment to read that to yourself.
10 A. Okay. I have read it. I don't really
11 understand it, but I read it.
12 Q. Well, let me tell you right now, we
13 didn't think that one up.

14 A. Okay.
15 Q. It's a bit confusing. Here is the
16 bottom line on that question: It's what we call the

17 mitigation question, kind of a "safety net." You know,
18 that is the last question you get. You have already
19 found them guilty.
20 A jury would have already found her a
21 future danger, but you review the evidence and decide,
22 well, is there evidence, mitigating evidence, that shows
23 a life sentence should be imposed, rather than a death
24 sentence?
25 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
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962

1 affirmatively.)
2 Q. It gives the jury a way out to give a
3 life sentence. But they have to do it based on the
4 evidence. Okay?
5 A. I understand.
6 Q. Anyway, my point is this: A "yes"
7 answer to that first question, and a "no" answer to the
8 second, the Judge would have no choice but to sentence

9 the defendant to death. Okay?
10 Now, if you answer it any other way,
11 he would give a life sentence. But the way our system is
12 set up, there is only two choices once a person has been
13 found guilty: Death or life. And that is determined by
14 how the jurors answered those factual questions. Do you
15 understand that?
16 A. I believe so.
17 Q. Okay. "Yes" answer that they are a
18 future danger, and "no," there is no mitigating evidence,
19 the Judge has no choice but to sentence the defendant to
20 death.
21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. Any other way, he would give them a
24 life sentence. My point is this: You don't go back
25 there as a juror and write death or life. Okay?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
963

1 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
2 affirmatively.)
3 Q. You answer these factual questions.
4 But, it's safe to say, obviously, the way you answer
5 those equals a death or life sentence. Do you understand
6 what I am saying?
7 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
8 affirmatively.)
9 Q. You don't write it, but, ultimately,
10 the same thing occurs.
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Okay. Now you have told me that you
13 are opposed to the death penalty, morally.
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. You have thought about it and it's
16 something that you can't participate in?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. That is just the way you feel and no
19 one is going to change your mind about that?
20 A. No, I'm afraid not.
21 Q. And that is fine if you feel that way.
22 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
23 affirmatively.)
24 Q. Because you see, we don't require
25 jurors to come down here and violate their moral
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964

1 convictions. Okay? If you are being honest with us?
2 All right.
3 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
4 affirmatively.)
5 Q. Some people can come in here and say,
6 "I can listen to those questions and I'll answer them and
7 if it results in death, that it is fine. I don't have
8 any qualms about it."
9 I have talked to other people, such as
10 yourself, that are opposed to the death penalty. And
11 they go, "Look, intellectually, I know what you are
12 telling me. You just have to prove these things by the
13 evidence."
14 A. Right.
15 Q. "And we answer questions, but I can't
16 change the way I feel. And I could never bring myself,
17 no matter what the evidence is, to answer these questions
18 in a way that would result in someone's death. I know I
19 don't have to write death in here, but I could never
20 answer those questions, because I can't remove how I feel
21 about my opposition to the death penalty." Do you
22 understand what I am saying?
23 A. Yes, sir. I think so.
24 Q. "It's something I can't do. I am just
25 morally opposed to it, and I could never answer those
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965

1 questions in a way, regardless of the evidence, that
2 would cause a person to be executed." Do you see what I
3 am saying?
4 A. Yes, sir, I do.
5 Q. Okay. Because we don't ask you in any
6 of these questions if you are opposed to the death
7 penalty or not?
8 A. I understand.
9 Q. That first question just asks: "Is
10 there enough evidence here, that you think there is a
11 probability that the defendant would continue to commit
12 criminal acts of violence?" It doesn't bring up the
13 death penalty?
14 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
15 affirmatively.)
16 Q. I have had people tell me, "I know you
17 could prove that to me all day long in my mind, but I am
18 still going to feel the same way about the death penalty.
19 So I'm not going to answer that question for you. I'm
20 just telling you right now."
21 And I have had people tell me who are
22 opposed to the death penalty that -- this last question,
23 it allows a way for the juror to get out.
24 You know, you can always answer it in
25 a way that they will get a life sentence. And they are
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966

1 telling me, "You know, I don't know how bad this person
2 may ultimately be. I mean, they could be the most
3 vicious criminal that ever walked the face of the earth,
4 the most dangerous person. But I am going to answer that
5 question in a way to give them a life sentence, because I
6 am opposed to the death penalty."
7 Do you understand what I am saying?
8 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
9 affirmatively.)
10 Q. We had a guy just yesterday, he is
11 what we call a bottom-line guy, I guess. He said, "I
12 don't care what your questions say, I'm telling you, I am
13 opposed to the death penalty. And I'm not going to
14 answer those questions in a way so anyone is going to get
15 the death penalty. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings,
16 but that is the way I feel."
17 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
18 affirmatively.)
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. I think I would have a lot of trouble
21 getting past "sufficient mitigating circumstances."
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. That would have to be very narrowly
24 defined.
25 Q. Again, are you going to be able to
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
967

1 forget how you feel about the death penalty?
2
3 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Your Honor, now
4 wait a minute, she is not obligated to forget how she
5 feels about the death penalty. She can take those
6 beliefs in, all she has got to do is follow the law.
7 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained.
8 Just because you are opposed to the death penalty, ma'am,
9 does not mean that you are disqualified as a juror.
10 THE PROSPECTIVE JUROR: I understand.
11 THE COURT: Thank you very much.
12
13 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
14 Q. Now, we have some people -- or I have
15 talked to some people that tell us that they really are
16 opposed to the death penalty, but, I guess, that they can
17 just sit there and answer those questions knowing that a
18 person will be executed. Okay?
19 And then other people, like I say,
20 say, "No, I just can't do it. I am telling you, I just
21 couldn't answer those questions." They are honest with
22 us. Okay? And that is what we're looking.
23 You have equated your opposition to
24 the death penalty with how you feel about not
25 participating in abortions.
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968

1 A. Exactly. Or euthanasia, or --
2 Q. I'm sorry?
3 A. Or euthanasia. Or any other medically
4 induced --
5 Q. -- any other medical procedure for
6 ending life?
7 A. Exactly.
8 Q. Okay. And no one will change your
9 mind about that?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Okay. It's something that you won't
12 participate in?
13 A. Exactly.
14 Q. Okay. Not if a doctor said, "Look,
15 you didn't make the decision. You are just going through
16 some medical procedures you are trained to do."
17 A. No.
18 Q. You wouldn't do it?
19 A. No, because I have that right within
20 my profession to refuse.
21 Q. Okay. And no one can force you on a
22 jury, either.
23 A. Well, I didn't know that.
24 Q. Well, it depends on how you feel
25 morally.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
969

1 A. Yes, I understand.
2 Q. If you have oppositions to this type
3 of law, moral oppositions, that you can't remove from

4 your mind that would prevent you from answering these
5 questions, that is fine.
6 Now, if you don't, that is fine, too.
7 But that is up to you because you know yourself best.
8 Okay?
9 A. All right.
10 Q. Now, I may be hearing you wrong, but
11 if you tell me that you feel the same about the death

12 penalty as you do about not participating in abortions,
13 what I'm hearing you tell me is, "I can't participate in
14 this type of case."
15 A. Exactly.
16 Q. Okay. It is not a question of
17 evidence?
18 A. No.
19 Q. It is a question of how I feel
20 morally?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Okay. And I'm not going to change
23 your mind about that?
24 A. No, you are not.
25 Q. Just like I could never convince you,
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970

1 or a doctor could never convince you, to participate in
2 an abortion procedure?

3 A. No.
4 Q. We couldn't convince you, in any way,
5 to participate and to answer those questions that would
6 result in someone's death?

7 A. No, not if they are going to result in
8 death.
9 Q. Okay. You understand again, a "yes"
10 answer and a "no" answer to those --
11 A. I understand.
12 Q. -- would result in a person's
13 execution?
14 A. I do understand.
15 Q. Okay. But that is the bottom line on
16 how you feel. Am I right, Ms. Huckobey?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Okay. Sometimes, and you know how we
19 lawyers are, we always like to ask questions. And

20 sometimes we ask some of the same questions, but a
21 different phrase to it. Okay? Sometimes I'll ask these
22 same type questions of a juror, and they will answer me
23 one way. And then another attorney might come in and

24 say, "Look, that first question, that is just a fact
25 question. Don't you think if you got enough evidence,
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971

1 you could answer that intellectually? Couldn't you be
2 fair and honest and answer that question?"
3 And they will say, "Yes." Then they
4 will say, "Well, look at the second question. Couldn't

5 you keep your mind open, if you saw something mitigating,
6 you could answer it that way? And if there was not
7 mitigating evidence, you would give it a 'no' answer.
8 Couldn't you just do that intellectually?"
9 And these people say, "Well, yes, I
10 guess so. I mean, I'm a fair person. I can decide these
11 things." But, ultimately, what that would do is then a
12 "yes" and "no" answer equals an execution.
13 A. Exactly.
14 Q. You understand that?
15 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
16 affirmatively.)
17 Q. Okay. Are you telling me, you know,
18 that it's not a fact issue with you? It is that this is
19 how you are morally opposed?
20 A. Exactly.
21 Q. So you could never answer those
22 questions in a way, a "yes" and a "no," that is going to
23 cause the Judge to sentence the defendant to die? It's a
24 procedure you can't --
25 A. Factually or morally?
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972

1 Q. Well, there is our point. Some people
2 can come in here and be like computers. Okay?
3 They can get the information and spit
4 out the answers, and their morals don't come into it.
5 Other people can't remove their morals. They feel
6 strongly about it. The way you are telling me you feel
7 about abortion. Okay?
8 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
9 affirmatively.)
10 Q. You know, factually, you can do
11 procedures and assist a doctor in an abortion, and maybe
12 remove -- some people can do that and not think about
13 that morally.
14 A. Exactly, uh-huh. (Witness nodding
15 head affirmatively.)
16 Q. Same thing here, some people can do
17 that. They can sit there and tell us, you know, a person
18 can come in and say, "I don't believe in abortion, but I
19 can do these procedures. It's not my decision, you know.
20 I will do what I am trained to do."
21 Other people like yourself, you would
22 come in, I take it, and say "Look, I can assist a doctor
23 in these procedures, but I am not going to."
24 A. Exactly.
25 Q. "I couldn't live with myself. I am
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973

1 morally opposed to it."
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Some people feel the same thing about
4 the death penalty. "Factually, I know I could answer the
5 questions, but I am not going to remove my morals from
6 that point." Do you understand what I am saying? "I am
7 not going to participate in this procedure, because
8 morally I could not follow this type of law. I don't
9 believe in it."
10 A. Exactly.
11 Q. You understand what I'm saying?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'm not trying to trick you or
14 anything?
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. My point is this: We do have folks
17 that come in here and tell us, "I can't participate, but,
18 gosh, I'll answer your questions." Okay?
19 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
20 affirmatively.)
21 Q. But the bottom line is what you need
22 to know is, if you answer the questions in a way, it
23 could result in someone's death. And when they get down
24 to brass tacks in the jury box, I think they start
25 thinking about that, and maybe they couldn't do it. Do
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974

1 you understand it?
2 A. Yes, sir. That is where I would come
3 in. I just couldn't --
4 Q. You just couldn't do it?
5 A. I couldn't do it.
6
7 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, I think
8 this is repetitious.
9 THE COURT: Sustained.
10
11 BY MR. TOBY L. SHOOK:
12 Q. Okay. But I'm not going to change
13 your mind on any of that?
14 A. No, you are not.
15 Q. Okay. I appreciate your honesty with
16 me, Ms. Huckobey.
17 A. Thank you.
18 Q. The only other area I had to go in is
19 it looks like, is it you and your husband own, is it some
20 type of --
21 A. A home health agency.
22 Q. Yeah, okay. It's looks like you do a
23 lot of the work, is that right?
24 A. I am the only R.N. for 21 home-bound
25 patients.
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975

1 Q. What are your hours when you work?
2 A. We actually work 8:00 to 5:00, but we
3 are on call all the rest of the time. An R.N. has to be
4 on call.
5 Q. This trial is slated to begin January
6 the 6th, and we think it will last two weeks. And it
7 will be about 9:00 to 5:00, is when you will be -- having
8 to be down listening to the evidence.
9 Would that cause, and I know --
10 obviously, it's going to be an inconvenience to everyone,
11 but some people, because of their job situation, just
12 wouldn't be able to sit as jurors and listen to the
13 evidence because of something involved with their job.
14 Other jurors say, "Look, it's an
15 inconvenience, but if I am on the jury, I will listen to
16 the evidence." What is your job situation as far as
17 those two weeks? Would you able to serve,
18 hypothetically, if you ever did get on the jury?
19 A. It would be very difficult. I am the
20 only one that coordinates the care and directs my L.V.N.s
21 and knows my patients. Okay? There are 21 home-bound
22 patients. It would be a real problem, and I would
23 probably end up working all evening, after I got out of
24 Court, because there is just stuff I have to do. We deal
25 with Medicare, primarily. And so, you know, there is
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
976

1 paperwork, a lot of it.
2 Q. What we need to know, bottom line, is
3 if -- and again, we are talking hypotheticals, but if you
4 got on a jury for two weeks, would you be able to
5 concentrate on the evidence or would you be thinking
6 about --
7 A. I would be at work mentally.
8 Q. You would be at work mentally?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So you wouldn't be able to sit there
11 and give this trial your full concentration, and listen
12 to the evidence?
13 A. Well, if I were selected, and that was
14 my duty, I would --
15 Q. Then you could?
16 A. I would do it.
17 Q. Okay. Again, we're talking about
18 hypothetically. But, getting back to what we really have
19 been talking about here --
20
21 MR. DOUGLAS MULDER: Judge, we are
22 going to object to any repetition.
23 THE COURT: Sustained. Let's move on.
24 MR. TOBY L. SHOOK: That's all the
25 questions I have, Judge.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
977

1 THE COURT: Thank you.
2
3 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
4
5 BY MR. DOUGLAS D. MULDER:
6 Q. Ms. Huckobey, as Judge told you, my
7 name is Doug Mulder, and I need to visit with you a
8 little bit.
9 A. All right.
10 Q. I just kind of want to get to know you
11 a little bit better.
12 A. All right.
13 Q. Let me make one thing real clear here
14 at the start: When the indictment is read by the
15 prosecution to Darlie --
16 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
17 affirmatively.)
18 Q. And the Judge asks her what her plea
19 will be, she will enter an unequivocal plea of not
20 guilty.
21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. And we contend that we're never going
24 to get to these special issues. Okay?
25 A. Okay.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
978

1 Q. The trial is not going to go that far.
2 A. All right.
3 Q. We suspect that a jury will find her
4 not guilty, based on the evidence. Now that is our
5 position.
6 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
7 affirmatively.)
8 Q. Now, I need to visit with you a little
9 bit, and tell you a little bit about how things are done
10 since you have not served on a jury before.
11 A. All right.
12 Q. Procedurally, for example, the State
13 goes first, just like they talk to you first.
14 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
15 affirmatively.)
16 Q. If I had my druthers, I would prefer
17 to go first, because I think first impressions are mighty
18 important. But as a juror, you need to keep this in your
19 mind, because we don't get a chance to bring our case to
20 you until after they are through with their case. And if
21 you make up your mind based on what they brought you,
22 then we might as well fold up our tent right now. You
23 see? And that wouldn't be fair to us.
24 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
25 affirmatively.)
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
979

1 Q. The law lets them go first because
2 they have the burden of proof. You see? The law says:
3 Whoever does the accusing, has to do the proving. Does
4 that make sense?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. She doesn't have to prove anything,
7 she just has to be here.

8 A. Okay.
9 Q. We're going to bring evidence, but we
10 don't have to. Now, the law says, that as a juror, you
11 will measure their proof by a benchmark or a standard

12 called beyond all reasonable doubt.
13 Now have you heard those terms before?
14 A. Certainly.
15 Q. Now, you know, back years ago on
16 Peyton Place they always talked about beyond a shadow of
17 a doubt, but that is not the law.
18 But anyway, you know, you hear various
19 renditions of that term, but the term is beyond all
20 reasonable doubt. And, you know, if you and I were to
21 sit down and draw up the rules that would govern the
22 trial of a criminal case, of course, we want to provide
23 for rules that would resolve as many criminal cases as we
24 possibly could.
25 And we would probably discuss the fact
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
980

1 that, you know, when those 12 jurors get back to the jury
2 room, and they start deliberating this case, they are
3 going to have some doubts, perhaps. And we need a way to
4 revolve these doubts, so that they can arrive at a
5 verdict. Because if they just go back there and they
6 have these doubts and there is no resolution of the
7 doubts, then they will say, "Hey, we can't resolve this
8 case," and it has to be tried before another jury.
9 And we want to encourage juries, as
10 much as possible, to be honest about it, and to resolve
11 their doubts. And so the law says this, and we might, at
12 first blush, we might think it would be fairer if we had
13 those jurors go back there and make a list of the
14 reasonable doubts. And put them on a piece of paper and
15 list them all and number them, say from 1 to 21, or maybe
16 1 to 101, or whatever.
17 And we give the State the benefit of
18 all the odd number doubts, and we give the defendant the
19 benefit of all the even numbered doubts, and we would
20 say, "Well, maybe that is the fairest way to do it."
21 But the law says no. And the law says
22 that each time a juror has a reasonable doubt, they must
23 resolve that doubt in favor of the defendant. That is
24 the law. Not just in this state, but in all 50 states
25 and in the federal courts.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
981

1 Do you have any problem with that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. You know, the reason, I guess,
4 for that is, as jurors, you are the judges of the facts
5 proved. The facts are what you say they are. Okay?
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. Judge Tolle is the Judge of the law.
8 You see? But if he makes a mistake with respect to the
9 law, we can appeal it to a higher court, and get it

10 corrected. Okay? So, no, he can't do us any harm,
11 really, because we can always get it corrected by a
12 higher court.

13 But as jurors, you are supreme as to
14 what the facts are. The facts are what you say they are.
15 Okay? There is no appeal on the facts. The facts are
16 what you say they are.
17 Let me give you an example, and I'm

18 going to go to the absurd, really, to make this point.
19 Assume, if you will, with me, that you are sitting on a
20 jury down in Austin, and I guess I should say over in

21 Austin, or up in Austin, because we are not in Dallas, we
22 are up here --
23 A. Right.
24 Q. -- or down here. But anyway, assume
25 you are on a jury in Austin and they are trying a bank
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
982

1 robbery case. You hear a witness get on the witness
2 stand and swear to tell the truth. And the witness says,
3 "I was there at the town square at high noon, and I heard
4 a gunshot, and my attention was attracted over to the
5 bank, and I saw a man come out of the bank, and he had a
6 sack of money in one hand, and he had a gun in the other
7 hand, and he had a mask on, and he ran out of the bank,
8 and he jumped in a black stretch limousine, and he headed
9 south towards San Antonio."
10 And the very next witness gets on the
11 stand and swears to tell the truth, and says, "I, too,
12 was in the town square at high noon on that day, and I,
13 too, heard a gunshot, and my attention was attracted to
14 the bank. And I saw a man come out of the bank, and he
15 had a mask on, and he had a sack of money in one hand and
16 he had a gun in the other hand. And he ran out and he
17 jumped on a white horse and he rode north towards
18 Dallas." Okay?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. It can't be both ways. Right?

21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. So, maybe it goes to identity. But
24 you go back into the jury room and you say, "Hey, I have

25 got a reasonable doubt as to the mode of escape. I mean,
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
983

1 was it a white horse headed north toward Dallas, or was
2 it a black stretch limousine headed south toward San
3 Antonio?"
4 And the other jurors agree, "You know,
5 we have reasonable doubt, too."
6 Suppose it benefits the defendant to
7 call it a black stretch limousine headed south toward San
8 Antonio. That's what it is. You see?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You resolve that doubt in favor of the
11 defendant. And from that point forward, it is a black

12 limousine headed south toward San Antonio. That is the
13 way that works. And like I said, I go kind of to the
14 extreme to make my point. But as jurors, your power is
15 awesome, it's awesome. It really is.

16 You also determine the credibility of
17 the witnesses. That is, whether or not they are telling
18 the truth. You may look at them, and it may be the way
19 they fidget on the witness stand, or it may be the way
20 they won't look at you, you know how people are?

21 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
22 affirmatively.)
23 Q. You know, you have had experience with
24 that?
25 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
984

1 affirmatively.)
2 Q. In your adult years.
3 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
4 affirmatively.)
5 Q. Maybe with children sometimes. Maybe
6 with -- but you just get that feeling about it, that,

7 "Hey, this ain't the way it is, you know. I can tell
8 that person is lying." And maybe it is his body
9 language, and maybe it is the way his hands shake, or the
10 way his voice cracks, or whatever it might be, but, you
11 know, that inner sense that tells you something is not

12 right.
13 So, you as jurors will be the judges
14 of the credibility of the witnesses, and the weight that
15 you want to assign to the testimony of each witness.
16 In other words, you may believe what
17 one witness tells you 100 percent. You may believe
18 absolutely nothing of what another witness tells you.
19 But you, as jurors, will make those decisions. You see?
20 Judge Tolle won't advise you as to

21 the -- and the law doesn't permit him to, he can't tell
22 you, you know, "Don't believe that second witness. You
23 know he is a liar."
24 But at any rate, you will have those
25 duties and responsibilities. And then, at the conclusion
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
985

1 of the trial, the Judge will give you his instructions on
2 the law. You don't have to know any law to serve on a
3 jury. You are probably a whole heck of a lot better off
4 if you don't know any law. Okay?
5 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
6 affirmatively.)
7 Q. Because Judge Tolle will give you all
8 the law that is applicable to the particular case in a
9 written instrument called the Charge. You will have that
10 when you go back into the jury room, and if anybody has
11 any questions as to what the law is, it will be right
12 there. You will probably all have a copy of the Charge.
13 You all will go back and read it, so that you understand
14 what the law is that applies to this particular case.
15 And, you know, one thing I have
16 noticed about your jury questionnaire here is that you
17 don't know anything about this case.
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. That is what we like. That is ideal,
20 somebody who doesn't know anything about it, who can just
21 go back and, you know, and sit in that jury box and just
22 listen to the evidence, and just call it the way you see
23 it.
24 Many, many years ago when I started
25 practicing law, and trying cases in Texas, I was a
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
986

1 prosecutor like these folks are. And the law in a
2 capital murder case, the law required that the jury

3 foreman would take pen in hand and write "death" in the
4 jury form, in the verdict form, and then sign his name to
5 it.
6 And they changed that law. And, I
7 guess, they did it to -- so that more people could serve
8 on a jury in a capital case. And the fact that some
9 people oppose, and don't like capital punishment, doesn't
10 disqualify them from serving as a juror in a capital

11 case, so long as they do this: So long as they can
12 follow the law.
13 Now, there are a lot of people that
14 don't like the law. I didn't particularly like the law
15 that -- remember the blue laws that we had here years
16 ago, where you couldn't shop on Sundays?
17 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
18 affirmatively.)

19 Q. I mean, it seemed -- a long time ago.
20 But anyway, the stores couldn't stay open on Sundays,
21 probably the Judge is the only one in this courtroom old
22 enough to remember that.
23
24 THE COURT: I remember it very well,
25 yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
987

1 BY MR. DOUGLAS MULDER:
2 Q. But anyway, they had the blue laws,
3 and you couldn't shop on Sundays. They couldn't stay
4 open on Saturday and Sunday both.
5 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
6 affirmatively.)
7 Q. And anyway, they repealed, I didn't

8 like it. And some people didn't like the 55-mile-an-hour
9 speed limits. You know.
10 But again, the situation is that if

11 you are qualified as a juror, so long as you can raise
12 your hand and take an oath, that you will follow the law
13 as given to you by the Court. You are an honest person.
14 Do you feel like you could do the?
15 A. I could do it, certainly.
16 Q. Sure. And part of that -- and again,
17 the only time we have to talk to you about punishment is
18 at this stage. And it's like I said, we're not going to
19 get there. Okay?
20 But to be a qualified juror, you have
21 to be able to say that you will, regardless of how you
22 feel about capital punishment, and I dare say this is a
23 far cry from -- I see a great distinction between
24 abortion and capital punishment, myself. You know, I
25 just don't think they are even close.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter

988

1 A. Well, that is the whole issue, isn't
2 it? Right now?
3 Q. Right. I am with you as far as
4 abortion is concerned, but -- and capital punishment.

5 You have got a lot of -- I think you checked number 3
6 here which said --
7 A. Yes, that was the answer that I told
8 him that I had had time to reflect on.
9 Q. Yes, that comes most close to how you
10 feel about it.
11 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
12 affirmatively.)
13 Q. And there's a lot of company there. I
14 dare say, that I fit in that category myself. Where --
15 you know, many times we wish there was another way. But
16 you could still, under your oath as a juror, answer
17 questions truthfully based on the evidence, not based on
18 how you personally feel.
19 You could set aside, just like -- you
20 know, if you had read something about this case, or heard
21 something about it on the radio, or seen it and heard it
22 on TV, the law has no quarrel with a citizen being
23 informed of what goes on in their community.
24 And then on down the line serving as a
25 juror, when that case is tried. So long as they can put
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
989

1 out of their mind what they have heard, or what they have
2 read in the newspaper, or what they have seen and heard
3 on television, and decide the case strictly on the
4 evidence that comes into Court. Okay?
5 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
6 affirmatively.)
7 Q. There will be witnesses; each witness,
8 before they take the stand, will raise their hand and
9 swear to God to tell the truth, and hopefully the
10 majority of them will do that.
11 Sometimes you have, well, you know,

12 the O.J. Simpson case is a good example. Where they had
13 Mark Fuhrman, who is the police officer who later on
14 plead guilty to perjury. You know? So, you have those,
15 as unfortunate as those situations are, you have them in
16 trials, occasionally. And, like I said, it's up to you
17 as a juror to be on guard for anything like that.
18 Discussing this second phase, the
19 first phase in any capital case involves guilt or
20 innocence. We have in Texas what we call a bifurcated
21 procedure.
22 The first stage of the trial deals

23 with guilt or innocence. If the defendant is found not
24 guilty, everybody goes home. It's only if the defendant
25 is found guilty that you go into the penalty stage.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
990

1 And then in a capital case, the
2 penalty consists of evidence by both sides, or both sides
3 are at least given the opportunity to offer evidence.
4 They may or may not offer evidence. I only know what our
5 position is going to be if they get that far.
6 But, again, there are just two issues
7 to be decided, and that is based on the evidence, not
8 based on how you feel personally. You set that aside and
9 just decide it based on the evidence.
10 Can you do that?
11 A. On the guilt or innocence part?
12 Q. On the guilt or innocence part, yes.
13 A. I'm certain I could do that.
14 Q. No question about that?
15 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
16 affirmatively.)
17 Q. All right. Then you go into the
18 second phase of the trial. Okay?
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Again, you don't take another oath,
21 but the same oath applies; that you will listen to the
22 facts and the evidence as it comes to you from the
23 witness stand, and decide these two special issues based
24 solely on the evidence that comes to you. Okay?
25 A. Okay.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
991

1 Q. You have to listen to the evidence and
2 decide what you believe and what you don't believe,
3 disregard what you don't believe, and then decide those
4 special issues simply on the evidence that you receive in
5 Court.
6 Special issue number 1: And you

7 listen. And if the State brings you evidence, that
8 proves to your way of thinking, beyond a reasonable

9 doubt, that there is a probability, and that means more
10 likely than not, I suspect?
11 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
12 affirmatively.)
13 Q. That the defendant would commit

14 criminal acts of violence that would constitute a
15 continuing threat to society? You answer it "yes," if
16 there is a probability. If the State has brought you

17 evidence to satisfy you, beyond all reasonable doubt, you
18 answer that "yes." Okay?
19 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
20 affirmatively.)
21 Q. Could you do that?
22 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
23 affirmatively.)
24 Q. If the State has brought you evidence?
25 A. Yes.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
992

1 Q. Okay. Now you would have to, under
2 your oath as a juror, wouldn't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Then you get to the second
5 issue: Taking into consideration all of the evidence,
6 including the circumstances of the offense, that is the
7 facts that you relied on to find the defendant guilty.

8 Okay? The defendant's character, that is the evidence of
9 her character, and background, and the personal moral
10 culpability, that is the moral responsibility of the
11 defendant, is there sufficient mitigating circumstance or
12 circumstances to warrant that a sentence of life
13 imprisonment rather than a sentence of death be imposed?
14 You would have to look at all of the
15 evidence, to see if there is sufficient mitigating
16 circumstance or circumstances to warrant imposing a life
17 sentence as opposed to a death sentence. But that is
18 based on the evidence. Okay?
19 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
20 affirmatively.)
21 Q. Now, under your oath, as an honest
22 person, could you do that?
23 A. Well, now here is where the situation
24 comes in. I'm not a robot and I don't turn off morals
25 and ethics.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
993

1 Q. I know that.
2 A. Okay? So this is where the problem
3 comes in here.
4 Q. Sure.
5 A. In the moral and ethical issue. Could
6 I do it? Yes. Could I live with it? I don't know.
7 Q. Okay. Well, you know, it's not
8 supposed -- it should not be easy to answer any of these
9 questions.
10 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
11 affirmatively.)
12 Q. Don't you agree?
13 A. Oh, I agree.
14 Q. I mean it should be a difficult,
15 heartfelt decision.
16 A. Uh-huh. (Witness nodding head
17 affirmatively.)
18 Q. Don't you agree?
19 A. I agree with that, yes.
20 Q. And, you know, sometimes under your
21 oath, you just have to, you know, do what you feel the
22 evidence calls for. And you could do that? And it's not
23 going to be easy.
24 A. Well, I am an intelligent person.
25 But, again, I am going to have a real problem.
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
994

1 Q. I know it.